Powerless mafia, mafia win

by **Pikanchion** on Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:46 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Pikanchion wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:The whole issue from D1 is that people like Pika and dgz were arguing that not only is it not shady to drop a quick "no lynch" hammer on D1, but actually it is the right thing to do. So if I were in Razor's shoes I might have felt like there was a lot of cover for that action.

Point out where either of us said that outside of situations where doing so would result in additional kills for Town.

Pikanchion wrote:
Ragian wrote:Do you also want no talking D1?

I don't care one way or the other but if we're planning not to lynch it's questionable what worth any discussion today will be. If we talk a lot we invite WIFOM situations where people try to guess if something talked about influenced the choice for N1 kill, if we don't then we start D2 as if it's a day one. Either way the lynch D2 is likely to be pretty random (and even if we don't talk much today there's a decent chance of people trying to discern who is scum based on who was killed as the basis for the D2 lynch) so it's really of little consequence if we talk a lot or a little today.

I'm just tired of having to have a lengthy discussion about whether it's worth lynching or not day one every single game when the choice is pretty clear cut most of the time.

And since when did "I don't care one way or the other [about the amount of discussion]" mean "dropping a quick no lynch hammer is the right thing to do"?

—

Razorvich wrote:I read everything...

...I didnt realise the full story there.

Pick one.

by **Metsfanmax** on Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:59 am

Pikanchion wrote:
Pikachion wrote:I don't care one way or the other but if we're planning not to lynch it's questionable what worth any discussion today will be. If we talk a lot we invite WIFOM situations where people try to guess if something talked about influenced the choice for N1 kill, if we don't then we start D2 as if it's a day one. Either way the lynch D2 is likely to be pretty random (and even if we don't talk much today there's a decent chance of people trying to discern who is scum based on who was killed as the basis for the D2 lynch) so it's really of little consequence if we talk a lot or a little today.

I'm just tired of having to have a lengthy discussion about whether it's worth lynching or not day one every single game when the choice is pretty clear cut most of the time.

And since when did "I don't care one way or the other [about the amount of discussion]" mean "dropping a quick no lynch hammer is the right thing to do"?

You started that post with "I don't care," sure, but the remainder of the post betrayed that you obviously do care, since you suggested that the WIFOM caused by the D1/D2 discussion is harmful and distracting. The remainder of our discussion on D1 consisted of you shutting down every idea I tried to offer for what we could usefully make out of the day. In other words, your posts strongly conveyed the message that it is pointless to do anything other than No Lynch on D1. If you believe that (and the opportunity for kills through the not-yet-having-posted mechanic is shut down), then it is entirely logical to just do a No Lynch as quickly as possible so that we can move on to D2. That is the strain of reasoning Razor was picking up on with his hammer. If you had thought there was any reason to continue discussion on D1 you presumably would have said so. Are you suggesting now that actually you did want D1 discussion to continue? If so, why did you maintain your No Lynch vote instead of unvoting?

by **Metsfanmax** on Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:01 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
Pikanchion wrote:
Pikachion wrote:I don't care one way or the other but if we're planning not to lynch it's questionable what worth any discussion today will be. If we talk a lot we invite WIFOM situations where people try to guess if something talked about influenced the choice for N1 kill, if we don't then we start D2 as if it's a day one. Either way the lynch D2 is likely to be pretty random (and even if we don't talk much today there's a decent chance of people trying to discern who is scum based on who was killed as the basis for the D2 lynch) so it's really of little consequence if we talk a lot or a little today.

I'm just tired of having to have a lengthy discussion about whether it's worth lynching or not day one every single game when the choice is pretty clear cut most of the time.

And since when did "I don't care one way or the other [about the amount of discussion]" mean "dropping a quick no lynch hammer is the right thing to do"?

You started that post with "I don't care," sure, but the remainder of the post betrayed that you obviously do care, since you suggested that the WIFOM caused by the D1/D2 discussion is harmful and distracting. The remainder of our discussion on D1 consisted of you shutting down every idea I tried to offer for what we could usefully make out of the day. In other words, your posts strongly conveyed the message that it is pointless to do anything other than No Lynch on D1. If you believe that (and the opportunity for kills through the not-yet-having-posted mechanic is shut down), then it is entirely logical to just do a No Lynch as quickly as possible so that we can move on to D2. That is the strain of reasoning Razor was picking up on with his hammer. If you had thought there was any reason to continue discussion on D1 you presumably would have said so. Are you suggesting now that actually you did want D1 discussion to continue? If so, why did you maintain your No Lynch vote instead of unvoting?

(To clarify: you cannot meaningfully argue that your No Lynch vote signalled neutrality on whether the day should end sooner. Every vote made the day more likely to end merely by getting closer to the majority, so everyone who voted that way was not neutral on the topic but expressing an implied preference for the day to end quicker.)

by **Pikanchion** on Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:09 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Pikanchion wrote:
Pikachion wrote:I don't care one way or the other but if we're planning not to lynch it's questionable what worth any discussion today will be. If we talk a lot we invite WIFOM situations where people try to guess if something talked about influenced the choice for N1 kill, if we don't then we start D2 as if it's a day one. Either way the lynch D2 is likely to be pretty random (and even if we don't talk much today there's a decent chance of people trying to discern who is scum based on who was killed as the basis for the D2 lynch) so it's really of little consequence if we talk a lot or a little today.

I'm just tired of having to have a lengthy discussion about whether it's worth lynching or not day one every single game when the choice is pretty clear cut most of the time.

And since when did "I don't care one way or the other [about the amount of discussion]" mean "dropping a quick no lynch hammer is the right thing to do"?

You started that post with "I don't care," sure, but the remainder of the post betrayed that you obviously do care, since you suggested that the WIFOM caused by the D1/D2 discussion is harmful and distracting.

What, the rest of my post where I say it's of little consequence? That means "harmful and distracting" to you? I later called your terrible idea WIFOM hell, I did not call all discussion "harmful or distracting".

Metsfanmax wrote:In other words, your posts strongly conveyed the message that it is pointless to do anything other than No Lynch on D1. If you believe that (and the opportunity for kills through the not-yet-having-posted mechanic is shut down), then it is entirely logical to just do a No Lynch as quickly as possible so that we can move on to D2. That is the strain of reasoning Razor was picking up on with his hammer. If you had thought there was any reason to continue discussion on D1 you presumably would have said so. Are you suggesting now that actually you did want D1 discussion to continue? If so, why did you maintain your No Lynch vote instead of unvoting?

And yet when given the opportunity, only one of us ever actually made clear who they had suspicions about. You chose not to do what you advocated for, as did every other player who failed to suggest who they suspected day one, did you see me say anything against those who did in fact state their suspicions day one? You used your time day one arguing with me by choice. Your inaction is on you, and those who failed to contribute (in your eyes) day one likewise have the blame for their inaction on themselves, don't blame me or Razorvich for it.

by **Metsfanmax** on Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:40 pm

Pikanchion wrote:What, the rest of my post where I say it's of little consequence? That means "harmful and distracting" to you? I later called your terrible idea WIFOM hell, I did not call all discussion "harmful or distracting".

Your silence spoke volumes in this regard. If you thought there was any reason to prolong D1, you sure did not suggest it, and you chose to spend the time after I had joined arguing against my analysis of your commentary instead of pushing a case against blacky or doing anything else.

And since you asked, dgz did indeed do this too (note that this was after all players had joined):

dgz345 wrote:https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=No_Lynch

Whether it is appropriate or advantageous to No Lynch is situational. Players may No Lynch in order to maintain an odd number of living players, which is mathematically advantageous.

It should be D2 already...

dgz345 wrote:People that are not voting no lynch right now are either.

Unknowingly making it harder for town.

Or

Knowingly making it harder for town.

Like sure lynch me if you want but do it D2... I won't magically get a power role that says I'm immune to lynches so you have to lynch me D1...

Pika wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:In other words, your posts strongly conveyed the message that it is pointless to do anything other than No Lynch on D1. If you believe that (and the opportunity for kills through the not-yet-having-posted mechanic is shut down), then it is entirely logical to just do a No Lynch as quickly as possible so that we can move on to D2. That is the strain of reasoning Razor was picking up on with his hammer. If you had thought there was any reason to continue discussion on D1 you presumably would have said so. Are you suggesting now that actually you did want D1 discussion to continue? If so, why did you maintain your No Lynch vote instead of unvoting?

And yet when given the opportunity, only one of us ever actually made clear who they had suspicions about. You chose not to do what you advocated for, as did every other player who failed to suggest who they suspected day one, did you see me say anything against those who did in fact state their suspicions day one? You used your time day one arguing with me by choice. Your inaction is on you, and those who failed to contribute (in your eyes) day one likewise have the blame for their inaction on themselves, don't blame me or Razorvich for it.

I was arguing for a world in which we could have continued D1 as long as we wanted. (And I am arguing now for a world where we can continue D2 as long as we want.) I am not a fan of early hot takes. Early "tells" based on apparent D1 slips are wrong more often than they are right. Sure, blacky said things that appeared scummy, but we can examine other things as well. I would have preferred that D1 extend for at least another 1-2 weeks of RL time as we drew out the discussion more. There was no need to rush into making accusations; there was no need to rush at all.

Pika wrote:Your inaction is on you, and those who failed to contribute (in your eyes) day one likewise have the blame for their inaction on themselves, don't blame me or Razorvich for it.

As I said you cannot claim neutrality here, every vote for No Lynch contributed to making the day end when it did. It's absurd that someone who actually formally voted to do nothing on D1 would blame someone else for inaction.

by **dgz345** on Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:47 pm

I take this as pika want to say Mets + blacky scum combo.

by **Metsfanmax** on Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:50 pm

Razorvich wrote:So... that leaves only dgz looking to kill people quicky.

I don't think I see any scumminess in that aspect of dgz's argumentation. While I disagree with Pika's analysis, at the time that he made an apparently solid argument for why it was good for town to have the auto-kill mechanic work (on an even number of players) and no one was arguing against it with any merit. Once every player had joined, he switched to Pika's stance of "No Lynch is the obvious D1 action."

by **dgz345** on Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:54 pm

I don't see what we would have gotten out of D1. But I might be inexperienced and blind.

And no lynch is the obvious end to D1. Like sure you could push for information but you could not lynch anyone. Therefor none would feel threatened by getting votes on D1.

by **Ragian** on Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:31 pm

BuJaber wrote:
BuJaber wrote:Also Ragian I suspect dgz. And I do like pressure on people not posting also. What I don't like is people who come up with cases/reasons to suspect people (whether they're good reasons or not is irrelevant for this point), but then vote somebody else who they're kinda 'meh' about or is a popular choice among voters. It's just really scummy.

You talking about my Razor to skoffin vote?

Yes but it was more a jab at Ragian for writing cases against everyone and then voting for skoffin despite not giving any reasons to suspect her, only saying "nothing there".
So he's my 2nd suspect right now.[/quote]
If you don't know why I'm suspecting her, I fear that I have thought too highly of you. Apologies. I've said it before, but I'll reiterate: I fear a silent skoffin. "Nothing there" is meant as she has said nothing about anyone. She's not on record. We can't hold anything but silence against her. I feel better about gunning for her than any of the other cases that I wrote out. It was in order to share my thoughts. That's what town must do. If you don't like that, tough titties.

@dgz, you can get a lot out of D1 if you play the long game, which is what town needs to do with no PRs. You get people to analyse each other, throw out random accusations, etc. Maybe you force one of the silent ones to actually say stuff that they can be held accountable for later. Now, even if BuJ doesn't want me to, I'm going to excuse my lack of participation towards the end of D1 with the missus going into labour.

Now, where's blacky? Why doesn't skoffin say anything?

by **dgz345** on Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:16 pm

From looking at the other thread skoffin found factorio. We should find a replacement.

by **Ragian** on Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:00 am

She took a turn in a mafia based CC game fewer than two days ago, so no, we shouldn't find a replacement. We should have her prodded (we should always do that before replacing anyone) or worse.

by **dgz345** on Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:19 am

Ragian wrote:She took a turn in a mafia based CC game fewer than two days ago, so no, we shouldn't find a replacement. We should have her prodded (we should always do that before replacing anyone) or worse.

It was a joke...