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Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

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Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby gigi_b on Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:29 am

Map Name: Playing Guitar
Mapmaker(s):
Number of Territories: around 60 for the idea to work, but can be less
Special Features: victory condition: playing an entire chord tune; starting position with auto-deploy(pick); conditional bombings
What Makes This Map Worthy of Being Made: First of all I like MY idea..:) (joking) There's no map about playing an instrument and the general way of play that I imagine, involves making chord-shapes on the fret board and finally playing a famous/classical tune....so if you play it a few times you'll know how a C major looks like on the guitar. Interesting now ha?

Updates:
- I've added a rough sketch; see image below; still looking for mapmakers :D
- if you'd like to give feedback any kind is greatly appreciated; one that I'd greatly appreciate is if you can please contribute with 1-2 classic/famous song examples; those are really useful as they can change significantly the way the map should be designed Thanks!
- Checkout the list of song suggestions and make a contribution!
- added map improvement(hjelp) idea and gameplay suggestion(WingCmdr Ginkapo)

Map Image: Figured that I have to put something here. Hope you don't get blinded by it ...:lol:
Click image to enlarge.
image

Map design idea/improvement(by hjelp): Dynamic/random loading of the songs in the Song Table where the set of playable songs is generated at random, at game initialisation, from a bigger set of available options. This would involve a base map + a number of images for the song content that get "glued" to the map (? technical possibility in CC ?) --- more about it here


Hello guys!

edited:/Added a rough sketch.....
show
So if we find this idea good and there's anyone who can help with starting this up graphic-wise, I guess I can do with figuring out the XML backend. Or so I hope.

How the map looks (roughly):

- there's a central map with 2 separate portions/tables: one with song information and playable territories (something like the Vicarious/Praetors/Emperors region from the Conquer Rome map) and another for information regarding the shapes of the chords on the fret-board (how does a Dm look like and how you get it)
- the central map has up top the starting positions of the players: 8 different coloured picks; these are playable (but special) territories
- the main image is that of the neck of a guitar starting with the headstock and 6 tuning keys up to and including the 10th fret; it has all the 6 strings and each note on the fret is a territory
- tuning keys are playable (but special) territories too

- the song table is separate from the main image of the guitar (neck)
- it consists of a number (let's say 4) of basic and widely known songs (this is open to discussion, but let's say for simplicity "The Beatles - Hey Jude"); each song has its chords next to the name and the chords are playable territories (actually, they can only be attacked)
- kind of like: "Hey Jude" D A D G D A D

Gameplay (Victory Condition):

- each players starts from his pick; every other territory on the map: 6 tuning keys, 60 notes , ~20 song chords start neutral
- the goal of the game (victory condition) is to have one of the songs in the table "played" (conquer the chords for that song)
- you can conquer the chords (so the actual territories in the song-table) only via your pick and after you've conquered the required fret-positions on the guitar
- fret position that are part of a chord cannot be directly attacked from the pick (see game-play suggestion here)

example for reaching goal:
- player A starts from his pick and wants to get an open D major chord, as described in the Chord Info Table;
- one-way attacks from pick any fret positions not involved in a playable chord (ex: 4th string-fret 1 or 5th string- fret 1 or 6th string - fret 2....)
- gets 1st string-fret 2, 2nd string-fret3, 3rd string- fret 2 ---> that's a D major
- he now is able to one-way attack from his pick the "D"s in the chord progression for any of the songs in the table (in the Hey Jude example he would have 4 positions to attack)

- each pick can one way assault
- notes on the fret can attack each note on a 2-fret radius (back and forth)
- chords in the song table can only be assaulted by the picks; can't reach each-other

Why the high numbers of fret notes. Well I had in mind that all the songs in the table should be using basic chords, in the A -> G range (with minors) and I thought that it would become a dog fight if you have only one position where you can get a Bm, for example. I only had in mind the open-chord chords and the A/E shaped barre ones.

Bonuses:

I would think it to have the auto on the picks and probably no territory-count bonus. So the bonuses might be for the chords (maybe differentiated based on simplicity and the number of song-chords one has). This is an important issue that is based on how the map would look like (with more or less frets/territories)

Elimination (escalating play):

Ok so now one (who's been particularly interested in my description and reached to this part..:)) would wonder what do you do with the tuning keys? Well, I thought about how the game could be played with opponent elimination rather than victory condition (in escalating for example). And I came up with a probably intricate way of doing this. First of all tuning keys should be killer neutrals (let's say 20 each), attackable both from each note position and from picks.
And sticking to the guitar concept, when reverting to 20 neutrals after one round, it also reverts to neutrals all the notes on the string.
If you hold 2 tuning keys, you can bomb any pick (well you kind of can play without 1 string, but without 2 is impossible...:) ). And here comes the concept of elimination: if you lose your pick you get eliminated (you can't achieve victory conditions).

Problems?!

Let me write about some problems that I can think of.

First, the territory count. That's a huge number of notes on the fret and given the gameplay I imagined, those 60 notes there aren't really "important". This can be overcome by restricting the number of frets in the main guitar-map (to something less), and making the available chords to take other barre shapes (something like a C-shaped barre on the 2nd fret is a D). And of course, the total number of different chords in the song-table could be made smaller.

Another problem is that of conditionals. So making pick one way attack ONLY the chord based on what your territories are on the fretboard. And then making bombing the pick possible only if 2 (or more) tuning keys are held. But I guess these are kind of distant issues for now.

Thanks for reading! If you've come this far it means you find the idea at least interesting. And if you do, please give some feedback, or more importantly, if you're into Photoshop or the like, might be great if you try it out.
Last edited by gigi_b on Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:19 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Playing guitar map [no img, just ideas]

Postby rizky_biznezz on Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:30 am

Sounds interesting hope someone gives it a chance
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Re: Playing guitar map [no img, just ideas]

Postby gigi_b on Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:05 pm

Thanks for the support rizky!

I'm guessing that a rough image would greatly improve the activity around this (well at least make few of the visitors give some thoughts about it).
But since I'm not really into graphics, it's kind of over my hand for me to supply it. Maybe I'll take the time and come up with "something", since I actually went through most of the important details of game-play in the initial post.
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Re: Playing guitar map [no img, just ideas]

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:18 pm

You could just draw something on paper and scan it in or take a photo of it?
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Re: Playing guitar map [no img, just ideas]

Postby rizky_biznezz on Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:54 am

yes i do agree that a sketch or image of some sort would be good you went to a lot of effort to write about it and explain it.... but i still cant quite picture it :)

wing might be on to something there.. if you cant use any of the design programs just a drawing would give people more of an idea and then maybe someone could then do it up for you on the computer.. good luck gigi
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby rizky_biznezz on Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:57 am

ask and receive just saw your sketch when i refreshed lol... that gives people a pretty good idea
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:50 am

Are the chords on the song table only one way attack-able from the correct place on the guitar? And to win you need to complete a line in the song table?

(This sounds disturbingly like Bingo, but nevermind, I quite like the idea)
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby gigi_b on Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:39 am

Put the sketch up and also updated it based on your question.

The initial idea is to make the chords of the song attackable only from the pick (something like: the player actually "plays" the chord...:) ).
The guitar is used only to make the appropriate shape and if you hold it, then you can attack only from your pick to those specific places in the song table that play the note you're "holding" on the fretboard. So, no, not directly from the terts on the fretboard/guitar.

Yes, the map has victory conditions: holding all chords for a song in the table for one round.

Somehow looks like bingo..:lol:....except that you can make only "line"...:lol:
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:52 pm

Ok so crazy conditional borders, but sounds doable.

Music question - How many chords share fret positions? You can illustrate the required fret positions for each note with a colour coding system, but this will get complicated if multiple chords share fret positions.
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby hjelp on Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:22 am

I don't get it all yet but I like the idea.

" chords in the song table can only be assaulted by the picks; can't reach each-other"
I'm not sure I follow what you mean ?


http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/

maybe something useful ?
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby gigi_b on Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:09 pm

WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:Ok so crazy conditional borders, but sounds doable.

Music question - How many chords share fret positions? You can illustrate the required fret positions for each note with a colour coding system, but this will get complicated if multiple chords share fret positions.

Yes, maybe the conditionals can be relaxed a bit....don't know, if there are better-suited suggestions, happy to hear them.

For the how many part, I guess that's a good question from the game-play perspective and it could be a problem.
The majors and minors share all but 1 position, for example (A and Aminor, D and Dm and so on...). This can be addressed by using some uncommon ways to get the chord on the fretboard. For example you can get a D with a C-shaped barre on the second fret (uncommon in real play, but....)
There certainly would be some key positions on the fretboard where at least 2 chords share the note...guess I'll have to think a bit on how to make this playable for CC. Maybe some of the guys with some guitar theory/experience out there can help out...:)

hjelp wrote:I don't get it all yet but I like the idea.

" chords in the song table can only be assaulted by the picks; can't reach each-other"
I'm not sure I follow what you mean ?

Thank you!
Now that you've brought the song part out, I guess I should try and get people that view this thread to help with some songs suggestions. First to get a feel of what options should be there and second to have a range of songs with different chords. The two I came up in the sketch use too many "D"s for example and that's not balanced.

Now back on to your question. To put it simple: the chords in the song table can only be assaulted (from the picks and conditioned on holding the specific shape on the fretboard). So not much action going there. They're just the goal...some neutrals that don't revert.
Game-wise it goes like this: Say you've conquered the 3 positions on the fret for the "A" chord. Now (in this turn or next, if you still hold them) you can assault only from your pick the 2 "A"s in the "Hey Jude" song. Suppose you got the first one (that's the secon chord of the song). Then you can't assault from it or make any moves from that territory. You can at most protect it in case someone else does an "A" chord and he may get it from you.


http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/

maybe something useful ?


Thanks! That will be useful to pick the chords.
Ideally, there should be 2 different available shapes on the fretboard for each chord that's found in the song table and not many shared notes (or at least not shared by too many chords). Guess it shouldn't contain all the majors and minors(14), but a decent amount....say at least 6-7 different chords. For the initial idea with 4 songs in the table and each with some 7 chords, that would be a mean of 4-5 positions per chord in the whole Song Table.(so 4-5 "A"s in total and 4-5 "D"s and so on....)
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby Bruceswar on Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:16 pm

interesting concept... good luck with it.:)
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby hjelp on Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:00 am

You Really Got Me (Kinks)

Perhaps use F5, G5 A5, C5 and D5 ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wild Thing (The Troggs)

Perhaps use A D E D G A ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It might be possible to have, let's say 16 songs.
Each time the map is loading then 4 songs randomly will be chosen from them.
Will be a new map each game. Depends on if a random number programming will be compatible. I think it is but I'm not sure.
The last thing to load will then be the songs ?
:idea:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The main battles will be using the fret-positions on the guitar ??
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Re: Playing guitar [Song List - still looking for suggestion

Postby gigi_b on Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:40 am

:!: Based on the list I will make a selection (mostly based on how the songs best fit game-play) and maybe cast a vote. Every suggestion is welcomed and all are really important, because based on these, the final draft of the map can be made (the chords of the songs will define how the fretboard looks like and what chords will be included in the map). :!:

Proposed Song List

1. by gigi_b: "Hey Jude"(The Beatles); "Redemption Song"(Bob Marley)
2. by hjelp: "You Really Got Me"(The Kinks); "Wild Thing"(The Troggs)
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby gigi_b on Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:06 am

hjelp wrote:You Really Got Me (Kinks)

Perhaps use F5, G5 A5, C5 and D5 ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wild Thing (The Troggs)

Perhaps use A D E D G A ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks! You got the title of "First Song-list Contributor" :D

It might be possible to have, let's say 16 songs.
Each time the map is loading then 4 songs randomly will be chosen from them.
Will be a new map each game. Depends on if a random number programming will be compatible. I think it is but I'm not sure.
The last thing to load will then be the songs ?
:idea:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm..although this approach would be appreciated from "map-novelty"/dynamics perspective, I'm thinking that there might be technical issues that would make the implementation difficult/impossible. For this to work, the map design should be dynamic (so the actual image must change). There's no way to make static maps for all available combinations (in the 4 from 16 song scenario that would mean > 1800 map).
As far as I saw the only dynamic part of maps are the playable terts....I really have no idea if your suggestion has been tried before or if it's supposed to work in theory. Anyway this would be an improvement to make after there is a playable map that works and we're far from that at this point...:)

The main battles will be using the fret-positions on the guitar ??


Yes, I'm thinking that the main action will go on the fretboard where each player tries to make chords and reach/attack the goal (chords of "song" in Song Table). Probably there would also be the stacking strat where you stack you pick and go for 2 tuning keys and try an elimination (similar to Baseball map if you're familiar with it). Or simply destroy a whole string of notes by getting its corresponding tuning key.
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby owenshooter on Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:12 am

if i get a power chord, am i going to be able to step on my Big Muff and throw out a nasty fuzzy sound?-JĆ©sus noir

p.s.-Bruce knows what i'm talking about!!

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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby hjelp on Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:02 pm

gigi_b wrote:
hjelp wrote:




It might be possible to have, let's say 16 songs.
Each time the map is loading then 4 songs randomly will be chosen from them.
Will be a new map each game. Depends on if a random number programming will be compatible. I think it is but I'm not sure.
The last thing to load will then be the songs ?
:idea:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm..although this approach would be appreciated from "map-novelty"/dynamics perspective, I'm thinking that there might be technical issues that would make the implementation difficult/impossible. For this to work, the map design should be dynamic (so the actual image must change). There's no way to make static maps for all available combinations (in the 4 from 16 song scenario that would mean > 1800 map).
As far as I saw the only dynamic part of maps are the playable terts....I really have no idea if your suggestion has been tried before or if it's supposed to work in theory. Anyway this would be an improvement to make after there is a playable map that works and we're far from that at this point...:)

The main battles will be using the fret-positions on the guitar ??


Yes, I'm thinking that the main action will go on the fretboard where each player tries to make chords and reach/attack the goal (chords of "song" in Song Table). Probably there would also be the stacking strat where you stack you pick and go for 2 tuning keys and try an elimination (similar to Baseball map if you're familiar with it). Or simply destroy a whole string of notes by getting its corresponding tuning key.


But if - The first thing to make will be the "static map". This map will exits independently of the chosen "songs".
The image for the "songs" is separated from the image of the "static map". So the loading of the songs will be no problem it will only work on the chosen image in the programme ??
-> So you will have 1 "static map" but all possible combinations of 4 out of 16 songs and the chosen amount of players for that game ?

Unless you want to have different amounts of frets but then if more players and more frets then each player won't get fewer terts as an initial drop ?
-> Static amount of frets decided from the chords from the song having the largest amount of chords ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you going to have 4 songs regardless of 2,4,6 or 8 players ?
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby gigi_b on Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:15 am

hjelp wrote:But if - The first thing to make will be the "static map". This map will exits independently of the chosen "songs".
The image for the "songs" is separated from the image of the "static map". So the loading of the songs will be no problem it will only work on the chosen image in the programme ??
-> So you will have 1 "static map" but all possible combinations of 4 out of 16 songs and the chosen amount of players for that game ?


I think I get what you're suggesting here, but again that's a far goal. We're still on the design and game-play phase.

So you're saying that there's something like "the blueprint"/basic map that has on it everything but the actual songs in the Song table, right? And there are also 16 small images each with one differrent song and "the program" chooses 4 random numbers from 1 to 16 and glues the 4 corresponding songs to the Song Table in the bluebrint/basic part of the map. This sounds interesting, but needs checking if it's also doable from the techinical perspective. I'll put your idea in the top post, just not to lose it.


Unless you want to have different amounts of frets but then if more players and more frets then each player won't get fewer terts as an initial drop ?
-> Static amount of frets decided from the chords from the song having the largest amount of chords ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you going to have 4 songs regardless of 2,4,6 or 8 players ?


OK, first of all I imagined that the starting positions are the picks. So at game initialisation all the fret position would be neutrals; no initial deployment then. Guess this also explains your last question about player no's and song no's as well. Since the main action would be on the fretboard, that has some 40 territories/notes, I guess it would make decent "space" for everyone.

Second, I'd rather have all songs in the goal table have the same amount of chords (6-7...some number) so that the all get equally likely to be played. If there is a 5 chord song there and the others are 8 chords and assuming the chords are equally difficult to hold, then the 5 chord song would be the target for all players. It's easier to get and hold 5 territories to win rather than 8 right?
This suggestion of differrent chord numbers for the songs would be interested to look at, only if there would be difficult chords to conquer on the fretboard. This would mean that the songs that have that chord would be harder to get and then it would make sense making some adjustments in song-length. But that's again an "advanced" topic or idea for improvement. I'd rather have the basics first dealt with..:)
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:34 pm

Gameplay query.

Is the best gameplay to stack your pick until you can talk the required fret positions and then song chord in one go? Certain positions on the fretboard should not be directly attackable from the pick. I'd suggest that no chord fret position should be attackable straight from the picks.
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby hjelp on Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:11 pm

- Perhaps bonus using pentatonic scales ? partly ?

- Chords are neutrals, are they n5 or n2 or ..?

- When battle on the frets, will there be all neutrals from the start? --> Very dice dependence from the start. If good dice from the start, then it will be difficult to catch up ?

- All frets borders as a "cross", possible to attack ?
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby gigi_b on Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:59 am

WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:Gameplay query.

Is the best gameplay to stack your pick until you can talk the required fret positions and then song chord in one go? Certain positions on the fretboard should not be directly attackable from the pick. I'd suggest that no chord fret position should be attackable straight from the picks.


Wow this is a very interesting question and perspective on game play! So thanks for putting it out! :)

In fact I was thinking about this, as the game play on the initial map would be a bit erratic, where players can hit everywhere on the fretboard, thus making the holding of a chord/bonus really hard. This is an important aspect of game-play because I have the feeling that an enjoyable map/game has to have, to some extent, the idea of "safe" bonuses. So just like classic type of maps have bonus regions on which just a limited amount of territories are attackable, what you're suggesting here would come really close to this.

So yeah, your suggestion would partly solve the issue. Say there are 2 players that stack for some rounds on the picks. and first goes and takes a chord. Than the second would easily play the breaking bonus game as he could use his stack to break any of the fret positions of the chord. While making those non-attackable gives some means to protection.

So, again, nice suggestion! :)
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby gigi_b on Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:41 am

hjelp wrote:- Perhaps bonus using pentatonic scales ? partly ?

- Chords are neutrals, are they n5 or n2 or ..?

- When battle on the frets, will there be all neutrals from the start? --> Very dice dependence from the start. If good dice from the start, then it will be difficult to catch up ?

- All frets borders as a "cross", possible to attack ?


I was more inclined towards bonus for chords depending on difficulty to hold them. Something like +1 troop/note held after you have the bonus. Not counting the open string notes (so E A G....). This means that an F major(E-shaped barre on 1st fret) would be a +6 while an open A a +3.....will have to think about it. If we go to pentatonic scales it would rather seem more about music theory than CC map, I guess.

All fret positions start as neutrals. Probably will use both n5 and 2/3. Working on WingCmdr's idea, the map would have some fret notes that are attackable from the pick and probably those will be n2's and some fret positions that are notes for playable chords and part of bonus and maybe those would be n5's. I guess these values can be fine-tuned.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying with dice dependence. I mean....basically every other map in here has this "glitch", if you have bad dice especially in the starting rounds, it's really hard to win.

I thought about limiting the attack range to 2 frets. This means that from any fret position that you hold, you can attack every other fret position in a 2 fret range. Say you're on fret 3 on one of the strings. You can attack every other fret position from frets 1,2,3,4 and 5. That will be 29 possible attacks.
Maybe that's a bit too much, but the original idea was to be able to get from any position the entire chord. So if you want an open D minor and you have 1st string-fret1 position, to be able to attack to 2nd and 3rd frets.
The "cross" suggestions seems kind of slow. If I understand it right, from one particular position, to be able to attack only the 4 notes that "border" it. It's a good option from game perspective, but it's not that close to the "playing guitar" idea.
Anyway, thanks for bringing this up! Now that I think of it, I guess this should be restricted somehow....maybe just 1 fret radius, your cross suggestion, or maybe otherwise....
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby iAmCaffeine on Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:04 am

You've definitely struck a chord with this one.
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Re: Playing guitar map [with a rough sketch]

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:14 am

Gigi, would you be up for producing this map, learning the skills as you go if you had a mentor to help you out?
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