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Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] [Reworking]

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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I]

Postby gimil on Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:14 am

Is the better guys?
Poll ended at Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:14 am

Yes 13-72%
No 4-22%
THIS MAP ROCKS!!!!!! 1-5%
Total votes : 18
What do you know about map making, bitch?

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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I]

Postby DiM on Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:04 am

i'm amazed this is still active after 9 months :lol:

anyway back on topic.

graphics.
although improved since i last saw this map i'm still not convinced and i think it needs lots more work before it can obtain a badge.

1. poor shadows give the impression of floating. the castles (tayers and tift) seem to float on the land and the land seems to float on the mud
2. the green circles are supposed to be trees? not only that they don't seem real but they seem copy pasted from one place to another. and it's just 1 tree? it's bigger than a house. in nature you won't see identical things. randomize the brush, randomise the colour, reduce the size and make tree groups not single huge trees.
3. the mud doesn't look like mud at all. it looks more like a carpet. the uniform colour and texture makes it look fake. why not make areas with dry mud areas with damp mud, add cracks or little spots of muddy water
4. pumpkins peas beets, etc look almost identical and aren't visible at a glance. perhaps a slight change is needed but it's not really that important
5. some mud terit aren't clearly defined. for example does M1 go all the way around the island or does it end at the bridge? same for M18, does it stretch all the way to Napt?
6. weird cross borders. does M17 attack Frim? or M18 > Falis??
7. small gap borders. does M13 attack Nav? cause there's a small gap there...
8. bridges look more like highways rather than bridges. they're too neat and clean. judging by the colour it seems they're made of stone. in this case you should add a cobble stone texture.
9. the legend is completely bland. it has no feeling whatsoever and it would be better suited on top of the map. this way people will have to scroll less.

gameplay.
i don't know what the neutral values will be so te comments on gameplay will be short.

1. some castles are unreachable. the 3 islands in bottom left corner are totally separated from the rest of the map. this means the map is unplayable as nobody will be able to win
2. most of the mud terits are useless in my opinion. actually the only mud terit i would be bothered to take is M13 in order to get from Kift castle to Nav faster. all others will never be attacked.
3. some castles are too close to eachother while others are so faaaaar away. this means in an assassin game it will all come down to initial drop because you have no means of fast travelling on the map.
4. the bonuses are too damn low and i really don't see any incentive to expand unless all the non important terits have a neutral value of 1. but in this case some castles will have just 4-5 neutrals between eachother.
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I]

Postby bryguy on Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:19 pm

DiM wrote:i'm amazed this is still active after 9 months :lol:


same :D


But there have been some periods where it hasnt been active... like whenever Im redoing graphix :D

graphics.
although improved since i last saw this map i'm still not convinced and i think it needs lots more work before it can obtain a badge.


i agree that it needs more work, but im not always sure what :)

1. poor shadows give the impression of floating. the castles (tayers and tift) seem to float on the land and the land seems to float on the mud


I can reduce their shadows and move them some. I for some reason gave them a bigger drop shadow, I dont remember why now, but I can reduce it. Also, Ill move them since I placed them on a spot that later got a shadow on it anyways.

Also on the mud, I have been continually working on fixing that, so far with now luck. Ill keep trying tho.


2. the green circles are supposed to be trees? not only that they don't seem real but they seem copy pasted from one place to another. and it's just 1 tree? it's bigger than a house. in nature you won't see identical things. randomize the brush, randomise the colour, reduce the size and make tree groups not single huge trees.


Yea their supposed to be trees. And yea they do seem alot alike, cause I made them all the exact same way with the exact same colors. I can try redoing them. And I realized recently that they were huge. I can make them smaller, and randomize the color, as well as make some groups.

3. the mud doesn't look like mud at all. it looks more like a carpet. the uniform colour and texture makes it look fake. why not make areas with dry mud areas with damp mud, add cracks or little spots of muddy water


I know that I call it mud, but now on thinking of it its actually more of a "recently dried up riverbank". Ill try alternating colors slightly, as well as adding those things you listed (dry mud areas with damp mud, cracks, spots of muddy water)

4. pumpkins peas beets, etc look almost identical and aren't visible at a glance. perhaps a slight change is needed but it's not really that important


I can try fixing them, but I cant promise anything

5. some mud terit aren't clearly defined. for example does M1 go all the way around the island or does it end at the bridge? same for M18, does it stretch all the way to Napt?


sorry, I had just assumed that it was obvious that the mud territories ended at the first big bridge. I could try to make it more obvious if you want

6. weird cross borders. does M17 attack Frim? or M18 > Falis??


oops didnt realize you cant see that territory line there. Ill fix it (m17 is supposed to only attack as far as falis)

7. small gap borders. does M13 attack Nav? cause there's a small gap there...


oops nope its not supposed to be able to attack there. Ill modify that

8. bridges look more like highways rather than bridges. they're too neat and clean. judging by the colour it seems they're made of stone. in this case you should add a cobble stone texture.


I knew it needed something! now that i know what it needs, ill do that :)

somebody i think mentioned adding a texture to it before, but i couldnt figure out what type of texture it needed :)

9. the legend is completely bland. it has no feeling whatsoever and it would be better suited on top of the map. this way people will have to scroll less.


yea I know its bland, Ive been trying to fix that. And sure, Ill move it to the top. Also, I have been having trouble thinking of what type of legend to do, parchment? pictures (like oasis)? Ill keep experimenting and Ill move it to the top :)

gameplay.
i don't know what the neutral values will be so te comments on gameplay will be short.

1. some castles are unreachable. the 3 islands in bottom left corner are totally separated from the rest of the map. this means the map is unplayable as nobody will be able to win


Actually its supposed to be that you can get there through the mud territories, thats why Im working on fading out the water and adding territory lines between M4-M5 and m14/m15-m10/m11

2. most of the mud terits are useless in my opinion. actually the only mud terit i would be bothered to take is M13 in order to get from Kift castle to Nav faster. all others will never be attacked.
3. some castles are too close to eachother while others are so faaaaar away. this means in an assassin game it will all come down to initial drop because you have no means of fast travelling on the map.


these are things I have been trying to think of what to do to fix. Any ideas would be welcome.

4. the bonuses are too damn low and i really don't see any incentive to expand unless all the non important terits have a neutral value of 1. but in this case some castles will have just 4-5 neutrals between eachother.


okay I can increase the bonuses
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I]

Postby oaktown on Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:45 am

DiM wrote:1. some castles are unreachable. the 3 islands in bottom left corner are totally separated from the rest of the map. this means the map is unplayable as nobody will be able to win
2. most of the mud terits are useless in my opinion. actually the only mud terit i would be bothered to take is M13 in order to get from Kift castle to Nav faster. all others will never be attacked.
3. some castles are too close to eachother while others are so faaaaar away. this means in an assassin game it will all come down to initial drop because you have no means of fast travelling on the map.
4. the bonuses are too damn low and i really don't see any incentive to expand unless all the non important terits have a neutral value of 1. but in this case some castles will have just 4-5 neutrals between eachother.

Sincere thanks to DIM for writing all of this so I don't have to... some of these are the same issues that I brought up weeks/months ago. The graphics are, indeed, coming along on this map, but there are some fundamental issues with how it's going to play which are not being discussed much in this thread.
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I]

Postby The Neon Peon on Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:03 pm

If you do tho following:
1. Get rid of M13
2. Move Elifan to Abens.
3. Make a territory in the mountain that connects Tray Village to Camt
4. Merge Opesto and Camt
5. Move Tayers to To'me. (Grain will need to have either a larger neutral or be moved someplace else)
5. Make Tray village a normal territory.
6. Move Lakri to Ye'tic
7. Make Anara a Village
8. Move Peas to Coles
9. Get rid of the border between Coce Castle and Iladi

Then all of this will happen:
1. All Castles are close to 2 other castles. (4 or 5 territories in between). Kift and Elifan are connected by the 1st 4 steps.
2. Castles with 4 territories in between have either a village or a resource as one of those territories (larger neutral)
3. Castles with 5 territories in between have no special territories as one of those territories.

Since those were the only differences among the castles, I think we have this solved. If you want to attack a castle that is not labeled as one of the two "near you," you will have to go through 6 territories and one of those will be a special territory.

NO EXCEPTIONS!!! It all works out. I double checked everything, it will follow these rules.
Last edited by The Neon Peon on Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I]

Postby bryguy on Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:21 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:I just had a solution I spent 30 minutes typing up that solved ALL of the possible unfairness by drop, then I did not notice that my internet had stopped and lost all of it. I will edit this post to retype it.


oh dude thats horrible :( (yet slightly funny, sorry, i cant help it :lol: )


hope you get it typed up again soon!!
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I]

Postby The Neon Peon on Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:23 pm

bryguy wrote:
The Neon Peon wrote:I just had a solution I spent 30 minutes typing up that solved ALL of the possible unfairness by drop, then I did not notice that my internet had stopped and lost all of it. I will edit this post to retype it.


oh dude thats horrible :( (yet slightly funny, sorry, i cant help it :lol: )


hope you get it typed up again soon!!

Done, it is double checked now. And I caught a small error. So, it was a good thing. By the way, I summarized the whole thing up. If you want an explanation for any of the steps, ask, I had it in the first version.
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I]

Postby bryguy on Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:52 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:If you do tho following:
1. Get rid of M13
2. Move Elifan to Abens.
3. Make a territory in the mountain that connects Tray Village to Camt
4. Merge Opesto and Camt
5. Move Tayers to To'me. (Grain will need to have either a larger neutral or be moved someplace else)
5. Make Tray village a normal territory.
6. Move Lakri to Ye'tic
7. Make Anara a Village
8. Move Peas to Coles
9. Get rid of the border between Coce Castle and Iladi

Then all of this will happen:
1. All Castles are close to 2 other castles. (4 or 5 territories in between). Kift and Elifan are connected by the 1st 4 steps.
2. Castles with 4 territories in between have either a village or a resource as one of those territories (larger neutral)
3. Castles with 5 territories in between have no special territories as one of those territories.

Since those were the only differences among the castles, I think we have this solved. If you want to attack a castle that is not labeled as one of the two "near you," you will have to go through 6 territories and one of those will be a special territory.

NO EXCEPTIONS!!! It all works out. I double checked everything, it will follow these rules.


whoah :shock:

you apparently put alot of thought into this, ill have to see what i can do :)


thanks! that will hopefully fix most things
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I]

Postby DiM on Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:18 am

actually this won't solve all problems.

yes each castle will be close to 2 other castles BUT what happens in an assassin game where your assassin is 4 terits away from you but you are 15+ terits from your target (Elifan to Lotrey)?

also some locations will at a big advantage. for example coce castle. remove it's connection to iladi and that island becomes a fortress. the guy that starts with coce will have no contenders for the Tir village and the corn resource. while elifan and ryos will basically fight for the firt village.

add this advantage to an assassin game where elifan must kill lotrey and coce must kill tyry and you'll see how elifan has no chance to win because he has to fight for bonuses with another castle and he must also travel a lot to get to his target.

what you need on this map is some way to cut distances and make each castle roughly the same distance to all other castles. kinda like the ports in the AoR map. perhaps make some tunnels or teleporting altars or something.
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I]

Postby bryguy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:30 pm

DiM wrote:actually this won't solve all problems.

yes each castle will be close to 2 other castles BUT what happens in an assassin game where your assassin is 4 terits away from you but you are 15+ terits from your target (Elifan to Lotrey)?

also some locations will at a big advantage. for example coce castle. remove it's connection to iladi and that island becomes a fortress. the guy that starts with coce will have no contenders for the Tir village and the corn resource. while elifan and ryos will basically fight for the firt village.

add this advantage to an assassin game where elifan must kill lotrey and coce must kill tyry and you'll see how elifan has no chance to win because he has to fight for bonuses with another castle and he must also travel a lot to get to his target.

what you need on this map is some way to cut distances and make each castle roughly the same distance to all other castles. kinda like the ports in the AoR map. perhaps make some tunnels or teleporting altars or something.


huh, i like the idea of tunnels :D

it would just be tricky to place them just right...
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I]

Postby The Neon Peon on Mon Oct 06, 2008 4:51 pm

I don't think assassin games work well on this type of map.

Feudal... what if I start in Feudal Empire and my target has Imperial Dynasty?
AoR II... what if I start in Aoria and my target has Mua?

I think that is overdoing it. If you start out with one territory each, the only way assassin games will be fair is if the map is a circle with evenly spread out resources. aka. symetrical.

How about this for Coce castle though... we connect some of the mud territories such as M8, M2, and M17. This will put Tayers at an easy connection to Tir Village, and Lakri will be able to Blitz across to that area as well.

Also, 6 neutrals on mud territories is way too high. I would say you should make it 1 or 2 tops, plus make all normal land territories worth 3. This allows People to use the mud territories for a fast run anywhere on the map, but they will still be bad to hold because they revert to neutrals.
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] Is this the end?

Postby bryguy on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:16 am

plz vote.....
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] Is this the end?

Postby jiminski on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:27 am

Well done mate! i was honestly looking for this map about 30 minutes ago.

I really like it Bry!

I think the graphics have a genuine originality and the depth of image catches the imagination!

As i said before, i am not overwhelmed with the non scenery based objects ..

Bridges: too square - perhaps make them suspended rope bridges which bow from the banks.
Oasis: needs more work - perhaps a palm tree, a little fresh water spring .. something more.
Castles: are actually not too bad but could still afford to look a little less boxy - make them middle-eastern/Muslim domes maybe?

But in my opinion it would be a shame to lose this map as you have come so bloody far!
I think this map could be a grand addition to the site. Perhaps you could come up with some gameplay hooks to capture non-graphicos imagination.

Edit .. maybe DiM's* tunnel idea could work
...Or as he said perhaps a magical transporting/ attacking Alter* in the castles/temple!

You just need to catch peoples eye mate, you need to lobby too, push it if you believe in the map.

Perhaps the gameplay is a little rudderless at the moment; you must get to grips with that and give a really clear brief of how it works.
If you do that people can pick it apart and get their teeth into disagreeing with you.. you need to create the buzz of creativity!
(heh Rename it Cannibal Famine or Sacrifice and Famine maybe.. bring in priests sacrificing virgins to end the drought to imbue double killing power to the dice or have people eating each other to bring rain ;) )
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] Is this the end?

Postby peanutsdad on Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:53 pm

you started it, finish it... too many things in life are abandoned, finish the damn thing already....
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] Is this the end?

Postby zimmah on Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:23 am

army circles?
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] Is this the end?

Postby MrBenn on Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:04 pm

Given that there have been no updaets for over a month, and as the future of the map is in the balance, this map has been moved into retirement.

If the mapmaker wants to continue with the map, then one of the CAs will be able to help put the thread back into the Foundry system ;-)

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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] Is this the end?

Postby bryguy on Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:08 pm

hmm... keep it here for a while, but it shall be back!



but first of all, i need to update some things....



and im thinking of maybe starting a new thread when i get back to this, cause thinking on it, the 'famine' idea never went through the drafting, only the 'empire builder' idea, and i remember someone commenting on that a while back...


oh well, ill be bach! (hehe, or back, whichever :D )
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] Is this the end?

Postby n00blet on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:04 am

Wait...this might end?
I must humbly suggest:
NO!
This map is great. No quitting, and no breaks for you bryguy! Finish it tonight! :D
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] Is this the end?

Postby bryguy on Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:30 am

n00blet wrote:Wait...this might end?
I must humbly suggest:
NO!
This map is great. No quitting, and no breaks for you bryguy! Finish it tonight! :D


lol i would if i could :)



but no, its not quitting, not after getting like 22 or 23 votes for me to not quit :)


its just going on a short break..... it should be back by December (probably December 5th or 7th, cause I think im gone on the other days......)
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] Is this the end?

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:28 am

it looks similar to feudal war, with different colors...
but i think you can do a great map...
please don't abandon it! so i voted CONTINUE
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] Is this the end?

Postby n00blet on Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:51 am

Necro bump....but he has a point. It's past December....and I want this map naoo :lol:
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] [Abandoned]

Postby bryguy on Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:33 pm

sorry guys, but I dont think Ill be continuing working on this. I tried to make things work, and fix all the gameplay problems/graphics problems, but its just impossible to do, without changing almost everything.



So Im sorry to say, but I gotta abandon this :cry:


I may work on this again some other time, just with different graphics and such. The biggest problem is the mud/giant river, so if I do ever try this again, Ill have to change the shape of most everything.



I got some more ideas up my sleeve, but right now Im working on a previously abandoned map, and the original maker of it deleted the .psd, so I have to recreate it from scratch, which is a big project.

So sorry guys, but I may (eventually) work on this again :( 8-[
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Re: Famine V.19.3 pg1+35 [I] [Abandoned]

Postby n00blet on Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:37 pm

:cry: :cry: :cry:
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