Conquer Club

And the idea rises, like the phoenix, from the ashes of the furnace. Again. So I've taken a whole bunch of time to think about this and I've brought in the suggestions given. I also have much more free time to work on the graphics. Here's the lowdown:

- c. 60 territory map. No Continents.
- Bonus of +1 for every two conquered territories.
- Players will expand from single-territory starting locations (see below).
- The whole thing will be set against the backdrop of the barbarian invasions of Rome:



Territories - 74
Continents - Zero. That's the point.

It's been loosely based on this image:

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm18 ... 477ad7.jpg

Although I've double-checked and/or adjusted some of the borders. I've tried to use natural boundaries whenever the border was disputed between sources, since borders were far from definite in 476 AD.


Prior Versions

Update 3 - http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm18 ... 40x525.jpg
Update 2 - http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm18 ... tabled.jpg
Update 1 - http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm18 ... allMap.jpg
Primordial Version (completely unlike the present version) - http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm18 ... fs16-1.jpg

My To-Do List:

-Army Circles
-Fix the Legend
-Make the small map
-Make the impassable mountains look...well, like mountains instead of brown lines

Questions:
-Can you read it?
-Do you like the regions color-coded, even though holding them offers no collective bonus?
-Do you like it?

I love the concept... it's like the other conquest maps, exept without the large bonuses on starting positions. Capturing as many territs as possible, quickly, will be everything for this map.

Graphics are the main thing that needs reworking, but I'll give this an A for effort.

It seems to be an interesting concept at first, but from other comments I've seen around here (and some of my own opinions), this might not be such a great idea. There are both good and bad attributes to this idea, so this will be a kinda complicated post:

first, to comment on the questions you asked in the beginning:

- Does the gameplay seem balanced?
----------first look says NO. if there are forced starting locations, you would have to really control the amount of neutrals (like on AoR and Feudal maps), but then you wouldn't be able to justify the neutral placement through historical information (which the rest of the map is based around)

- The graphics essentially consist of me playing around with photobucket. How's it look to you?
----------graphics are a disaster to start (no offense). MS paint fails at all forms of mapmaking. I'm sure the graphics will improve a lot once you get Photoshop. You will probably want to re-draw all the land by hand in Photoshop, because the map you are using now doesn't look very good. Made by hand would look much better. (also, "photobucket" is the website you upload your images to. it has nothing to do with image editing.)

- Do the starting locations seem balanced as points to expand from?
----------nope. Some have great access to the map (Champagne and C. of Barcelona), and others are really limited (Eire, Denmark, Papal states).

- Do the starting locations make sense to the historically minded readers?
---------I don't know enough about history to answer this one.....

- Should I anglicize all the territory names or do you like the other add-ins?
---------I think you should wait until you have Photoshop.

- Can you read the frescoed text?
---------I don't know what "frescoed text" is, but I can read everything on the map, so I guess that is a YES.

- Do you agree that a large map without continental bonuses is worth pursuing?
---------Yes, if it is done correctly (fair, equal chance to win no matter what starting position)

- Would you rather it follow the Feudal War-esque model of expansion from fixed starting locations, or would you like deployment to be more like that of a normal map?
---------I don't really think either.... feudal war-esque would be very difficult for you to set up, to make it fair for every player, but normal deployment would give a huge advantage to whoever is lucky enough to start with a bunch of their territories together, cause they can just pull all those armies together and take a ton of extra territories very quickly.
- I've used European petty states from across history as the basis for this map, since Europe has been invaded by more barbarian groups than you can name in its history and I thought this was appropriate. Do you agree with the location and/or the nonspecific era? Alternative ideas?
---------again, I don't know history, so no comment on this one.





Now my comments:

Good stuff:
---Its a gameplay concept that's never been used before.
---it has an ineresting story behind it.

Bad stuff (sadly, there's more bad than good for this one) :
---There is already 1 (and soon to be 2) maps of europe.... this one is quite a bit different, but still of the same area. that might not be very popular.
---Graphics need a TON of work. Good luck with Photoshop.
---This is a pretty ambitious project for someone new to CC and the Foundry. You might want to try something a bit more simple your first time through.


---the "luck" factor: This map puts a huge reliance on luck of the dice. a simple bad roll could cost you the game, and lucky dice could mean a huge bonus next turn. With so many people complaining that the dice aren't fair, this concept might not go so well with the rest of the population on CC.




My suggestion is to try something a bit smaller and more simple.
With little/no experience with photoshop as of now, you will have a difficult time bringing this map up to foundry graphics standards.
I mean, if you want to continue this idea, go for it. But I just don't see this one having much potential.
Maybe you could put this on hold and start it back up after you get some photoshop and Foundry experience.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I'll be watching this one if you continue.


... wow. that was a long message....

I would really love to comment on this (Especially being a bit of a history geek for this era) but unfortunatly its too early in the morning

Medieval Europe

Anyway, This is a map me and Tel have put on vacation untill 1) we get Dark Age Britain through 2) We think of a way to make the map smaller (my stupid fault I'm afraid )

However, It'll give you some of your regions a tiny bit more accuratly and a good lesson to learn from it is make the small map first make sure It'll fit in the small boundries otherwise its a gonner )

my immediate reaction to this is: don't we already have enough maps of Europe?

As for having a map with no region bonuses; sure, why not. Think about working the XML so you get a bonus placement army for every two territories you own rather than three to make expansion more attractive.

oaktown wrote:my immediate reaction to this is: don't we already have enough maps of Europe?

No.

oaktown wrote:As for having a map with no region bonuses; sure, why not. Think about working the XML so you get a bonus placement army for every two territories you own rather than three to make expansion more attractive.

Agreed...

I like the premise of this map - and the layout and territories look good - Once you get yourself a good looking draft up then I think this will go far.

C.

oak wrote:my immediate reaction to this is: don't we already have enough maps of Europe?

same,
-
i think that if another europe mapo was made - it could be a lot better gameplay than this (i think)
----
EDIT:
and the way that you want +1 amry for each terit would make this map dependant on dice big time

oaktown wrote:As for having a map with no region bonuses; sure, why not. Think about working the XML so you get a bonus placement army for every two territories you own rather than three to make expansion more attractive.

Exactly what I was going to suggest

This style of gameplay doesn't interest me at all, but good luck with the map nonetheless!

oaktown wrote:As for having a map with no region bonuses; sure, why not. Think about working the XML so you get a bonus placement army for every two territories you own rather than three to make expansion more attractive.

I definitely agree with making expansion more attractive. Is the general feeling that a 1:1 ratio of armies to territories is a) too high and b) leaves too much up to chance? If y'all are of that opinion, I'll go for the 1:2 ratio.

BrianHoef wrote:

oaktown wrote:As for having a map with no region bonuses; sure, why not. Think about working the XML so you get a bonus placement army for every two territories you own rather than three to make expansion more attractive.

I definitely agree with making expansion more attractive. Is the general feeling that a 1:1 ratio of armies to territories is a) too high and b) leaves too much up to chance? If y'all are of that opinion, I'll go for the 1:2 ratio.

If it's 1:1 ratio, it basically needs to be conquest (ie, like Feudal with only 1 start territory) -- otherwise it will favor people who go first. Even with 1:2 ratio, it's a problem. I guess it pretty much needs to be conquest.

I like the general concept of your idea, although you have a mammoth task ahead of you!

Wcaclimbing said pretty much everything I wanted to say, but I'd add that it's a hard task to please everybody; especially when you're talking historical maps, and geographical maps... Read through the British Isles Revamp thread (in Final Forge), the New Europe (Main Foundry), and any of the Roman Empire threads to get an idea of the geographical and historical nit-picks that people find!

would love a good historical map of europe..
but CC already has a fantasy europe map with time rifts. (the one called europe)
Do we really need another fictitious map of europe?

better imo if you skip the sci-fi and choose an interesting epoch from history

snufkin wrote:would love a good historical map of europe..
but CC already has a fantasy europe map with time rifts. (the one called europe)
Do we really need another fictitious map of europe?

better imo if you skip the sci-fi and choose an interesting epoch from history

I would agree actually. The Dark Ages after the fall of the roman Empire may be good, then you have all the tiny germanic kingdoms fighting over whats left (and the eastern empire still existing of course)

The concept is good, and with some gameplay work has plenty of room to set itself apart.

Graphics:
- You know, others know, I know, you need to get some serious image editing software and go to town on your intended area of Europe. As it is, that's a Foundry standard circa 2006.
- Even though your map is intended to be continent-less, I would suggest having a continent-based color scheme nonetheless. Perhaps take a middle-ages time period and show influence of various powers at that time, then delineate territories off of that. Whatever you do, NOT modern-day Europe (which you've already stated you don't plan on it, just sticking my .02 of support there). With colors, you can give your map more character than a homogeneous mass of the same texture could.

Gameplay:
- Not 1:1 on territory bonuses. I would suggest going Conquerman style and having it start 1:2, cut to 1:3 after x amount of territories, then 1:4 after y territories. It would jibe with the sphere of influence idea you're wanting to flesh out, as after a point your specific influence over newer territories will not be as strong as in your original ones. Geopolitics for the win.
- If doing it Conquest, make sure to balance neutrals to make each starting position just as powerful as the next one. Ask DiM for some creative input on this part.
- If doing it normal randomized layout, consider further editing the territory bonuses to work for specific player-caused breakpoints. Think a number of territories that will cause even bonuses on all player settings (don't forget the help of neutrals in this cause).

This confuses me, it looks like your making a map, yet in the title of the thread u say 'new gameplay method' which would belong in suggs and bugs, could u clear this up for me?


p.s. i havent really read the thread (other than the first post)

p.p.s. i dont like how you call it 'Petty States of Europe'

Map gameplay is different on this map, with no continents.

Petty States refers to the small non-Empire powers and influences at the time. They didn't have sovereignty over their realms, but they certainly weren't ignorable.

TaCktiX wrote:Map gameplay is different on this map, with no continents.

Petty States refers to the small non-Empire powers and influences at the time. They didn't have sovereignty over their realms, but they certainly weren't ignorable.

OH i think i underestand now....


ok not really but ill comment more later

bryguy wrote:This confuses me...

p.s. i havent really read the thread (other than the first post)

Ignore Bryguy - he talks a load of rubbish sometimes

You've had some good feedback here - you just need to have a long think about which direction you're going to take, if you do decide to go ahead with it.

MrBenn wrote:

bryguy wrote:This confuses me...

p.s. i havent really read the thread (other than the first post)

Ignore Bryguy - he talks a load of rubbish sometimes

no, that was when i first joined, now its only 33 1/3% of the time



currently i hate the graphix, but theres not that much that i can see to comment on until u get out something for me to really comment on....


oh well ill get some comments in soon

MASSIVE bump! First page justifies it, I promise...

I suggest you get started on a workable image, more feedback will come once people have something better to look at and understand.


--Andy

Agreed. I'm afraid what you have there is pretty much useless to us. Even a paint drawing would be better if it was made clear. The basic idea could work, but you need to think about the intricate gameplay rather than simply the concept itself. We dont want a map where the winner is entirely decided by who gets the best dice as I fear it might be as it stands.

Your Gameplay will be similar to mine gameplay in Imperium Romanum.

I have a map somewhere on my other computer of almost the same thing.. but a few years later when the ostrogoths took over after odoacer.
good luck with the gameplay - you really need it.
BTW the new idea you´ve posted is of a thomaslessman map.. dont trust his amateur maps too much as they often have some errors.. They´re ok for reference but always try to compare them with more professional sources.
and the idea has been suggested a couple of times before so until you have some original sketch showing some basic gameplay ideas I think it´s hard to make comments.