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Re: Game Statistics

Postby hotfire on Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:58 pm

usefulness is subjective. i can easily argue that the number of territories in the stats is useless information (because it can be found in the log, why bother having a stat for it?).
my game log only goes so far back...these new stats are helpful in large games on large maps where my log only goes back 3 players or so....its impossible to figure out the territory count of a player 5 turns back in that situation.
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby ender516 on Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:47 pm

hotfire wrote:usefulness is subjective. i can easily argue that the number of territories in the stats is useless information (because it can be found in the log, why bother having a stat for it?).
my game log only goes so far back...these new stats are helpful in large games on large maps where my log only goes back 3 players or so....its impossible to figure out the territory count of a player 5 turns back in that situation.

You can always click on the button that says [load entire log]. That will let you scroll all the way back to the beginning.
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby hotfire on Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:20 pm

nah... it doesnt work for me.
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:07 am

Then you're doing it wrong.
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:11 am

Pat wrote:
drunkmonkey wrote:

I don't see how those stats would be useful. Knowing how many territories your opponent has in a fog game can come in very handy. Knowing that he has "at least 11 troops" doesn't help much. Neutral totals don't really matter either. You don't gain anything by wiping them out. You only need to know how many lie between you and your opponent, which a program can't tell you, unless it's going to start planning out "best path" scenarios (which would be infringing on strategy).



1. usefulness is subjective. i can easily argue that the number of territories in the stats is useless information (because it can be found in the log, why bother having a stat for it?). regardless, whether it is useful or not isn't really the issue. The issue is to provide statistics.

2. you do gain something from taking out neutrals. example: feudal war, Treasures Of Galapagos... etc. you don;t necessarily gain anything from knowing how many there are,i know it sounds unimportant, but regardless of its importance... if you want to have statistics of 'information already provided' (whether it is in the log, or on the map), include everything, not just a portion of it.


Why would they spend time programming to add useless information? You said "usefulness is subjective", yet failed to mention one aspect of this information that you think is useful. Why do you want it? Simply because it exists?
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby Pat on Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:00 am

drunkmonkey wrote:
Why would they spend time programming to add useless information? You said "usefulness is subjective", yet failed to mention one aspect of this information that you think is useful. Why do you want it? Simply because it exists?


what i meant by "usefulness is subjective" is that, what is useless for YOU,
I don't see how those stats would be useful.
is not necessarily useless to others. i think it could help in figuring out how many armies your opponent has, a rough estimate at the least.

For Example: if someone goes around the map 'investigating' what others have they may make many of their opponents armies, or stacks visible. the # of armies would calculate how many of your opponents armies are visible, without you having to count them. this information could be useful no?

and if you still don't agree then, yes, it should be available, simple because it exists.

they wouldn't be 'spending time programming to add useless information' because that information is already available in the stats, only in fog games it becomes a '?'.

one final note: if BOB calculates these stats, then they must serve some use, either to the person who wrote the script, or other players.

clear enough?
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby nippersean on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:13 pm

Easy guys,

Couldn't you just agree that the stats are v useful and a vast improvement for all the players that don't have Bob? It helps the players that struggle to count, understand the log, or have better things to do (like concentrate on strategy.)

I prefer Bob, I'm used to it, and it has a bit more info, (things I used to work out anyway for my first 60 games before I loaded it.) Adding this helps all the folk that don't know about Bob or can't run it. It levels the playing field.

You're both agreed it's a welcome update, just argueing over small detail.
Also if it was too all singing all dancing it'd go well over to the right.
Please cybershake hands on it being a welcome improvement.
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby SlugReborn on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:50 pm

My only problem with this is that it shows how many armies and territories players own in fogged games. I don't think it should show that, it kinda defeats the purpose of fog...

Also, I have to scroll to the right, but that's not too big a deal (a bit annoying though, maybe it could be moved to the top or somewhere else?

But being lazy, I posted before I read the other replies and see now that this is already under discussion :oops:
Last edited by SlugReborn on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:50 pm

SlugReborn wrote:Also, I have to scroll to the right, but that's not too big a deal (a bit annoying though, maybe it could be moved to the top or somewhere else?



If you haven't already, check out the new proposed stats layout and vote!


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Re: Game Statistics

Postby SlugReborn on Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:55 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:If you haven't already, check out the new proposed stats layout and vote!


I got here from there, checking this out first. I went back and yeah, I like that new layout much better! If the fog thing can be handled like BOB, that would be great!

Great work!
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby nippersean on Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:42 pm

SlugReborn wrote:My only problem with this is that it shows how many armies and territories players own in fogged games. I don't think it should show that, it kinda defeats the purpose of fog...

Also, I have to scroll to the right, but that's not too big a deal (a bit annoying though, maybe it could be moved to the top or somewhere else?

But being lazy, I posted before I read the other replies and see now that this is already under discussion :oops:



Err no it doesn't
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby SlugReborn on Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:49 pm

nippersean wrote:Err no it doesn't


How does it not? The purpose of fog is to not be able to see what territories and armies your opponents have except those next to one of yours, right?

I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so I would be interested if you could expand on your comment so I can understand why you feel it doesn't defeat the purpose of fog...
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby SlugReborn on Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:54 pm

VectorxMan wrote:the point of fog of war is fighting your enemy blindfolded. that kind of information should not be readily available in this type of game. the whole idea of risk games is to analyze the map and make decisions based on what you see, not to have VIP information handed to you on a silver platter and highlighting who is the ideal player to hit.

all in all i liked it better when the only information shown was the number of cards


Well there, there's my point and I agree!
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby nippersean on Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:56 pm

It's the bold bit slug, it doesn't tell you how many armies are under the fog - unless you got special plugin of course....

Edit - it's not an opinion - it's a fact - you cannot tell the number of the opponents armies from the update - stop being silly sausage
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:17 pm

SlugReborn wrote:I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so I would be interested if you could expand on your comment so I can understand why you feel it doesn't defeat the purpose of fog...


For the 4,536th time...the update doesn't add any information that wasn't already available in the log.
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby SlugReborn on Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:29 pm

nippersean wrote:It's the bold bit slug, it doesn't tell you how many armies are under the fog - unless you got special plugin of course....

Edit - it's not an opinion - it's a fact - you cannot tell the number of the opponents armies from the update - stop being silly sausage


Not anymore, but I swear it used to. Regardless, it still shows regions: Image
and BOB doesn't:
Image
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby Duality. on Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:32 pm

You should know how many regions they have anyway.
Image
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby SlugReborn on Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:58 pm

Duality. wrote:You should know how many regions they have anyway.


yeah, ur right. If it's in the log, then I should go through the log and find it. So I guess my problem is not with the added stats, but with BOB for not showing it. I withdraw my objection. :-)

And thank you for taking the time to explain it.
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby drunkmonkey on Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:15 pm

BOB shows it. The "Regions" column shows how many you can see, and "[Calc]" shows the total regions (from the log).
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby nippersean on Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:18 pm

Slug,

Bob does. It's under the [calc] column going down 15, 9, 6, 13, 8 etc. it's the same as in the update. Bob's first column shows how many you can "see"
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby SlugReborn on Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:35 pm

Well, apologies again then. All is good & thanks for the info. I could blame my losing so many games on this mistake on my part, but I won't lol ;-)

So please, just let me wallow in my stupidity and don't rub it in anymore? lol :oops:
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby garbageflan on Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:54 pm

it defeats the purpose of fog of war by letting other players see how many territories one has. other than that I guess it is a time saving addition
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby soundman on Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:32 am

garbageflan wrote:it defeats the purpose of fog of war by letting other players see how many territories one has. other than that I guess it is a time saving addition

*sigh* This has been answered a thousand times.... The game log ALREADY tell you how many your opponents have.
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby Mr_Adams on Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:55 pm

what about putting the number of units your opponent deployed the previous turn in fog of war games? (minus cards) More info you can collect from the log, and one less "?".
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Re: Game Statistics

Postby filbert23 on Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:33 pm

I like the information bar - for those that don't like - don't use it. Horizontal scrolling is not a big deal, at least to me it's not...
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