[22-May-2006] Grievances and RSS

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Postby Patroclus on Wed May 24, 2006 10:15 am

lackattack wrote:But allowing positive feedback could lead to a better atmosphere.
Hmmm....


Hey, Lack: Screw you and the rest of the Canucks north of the US border. And screw all south of the Rio Grande.....and that includes Maraddendum.

"Positive Feedback"? That idea sucks!

Hmmmmmm.......only kidding...... :mrgreen:
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Postby JCole200 on Wed May 24, 2006 4:01 pm

lackattack wrote:One thing I forgot to mention is that I plan to have moderator(s) for grievances. But I envision us only editing really offensive grievances and not investigating their accuracy or truthfulness. I'm concerned that it would be too much effort.


So when does this 'plan' go into effect? I'm pretty not happy about getting called an 'ahole' then having the greivence filed against me.

There is nothing to stop new players from logging on, getting pissed off about losing, and then negging someone.

On eBay you can counter this sort of thing through several methods, so the system somewhat works. On here, I just have a negative from some guy I killed because he's mad that I killed him and didn't let him get a continent bonus early in the game.

That's ridiculous that there is no way for me to get rid of that.

Also, there should be a link to the game in question. You can clearly see in the first line of the game the guy calling me an ahole. Then the other guy even asks who he's calling that, and he says me. Obviously, I did nothing to provoke.

There is no checks and balances in this system.. and until there is, you'll be hearing a lot of complaints about it.
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Postby Aladriel on Wed May 24, 2006 7:33 pm

OK.. Here's my question about grievances. Say.. I file a grievance against someone. We shall call him 'X'. I just find X annoying. We were in a team game and X just keeps bossing me around instead of working with me. Nothing against the rules, just annoying and a little insulting. I file a grievance. I'm not going to play with X anymore and I know this. But, what's going to stop X from popping up in one of my games again to get revenge for my filing against him? Or are we just assuming that would *never* be the case?
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Postby anomie on Thu May 25, 2006 1:42 am

I have a grievance count of 3 already. I'm getting them not because of my sportsmanship, but for singling out people who I feel deserve a grievance. I don't know if people are going to take the time to investigate my feedback to see how they are lying about me.
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Postby Scorba on Thu May 25, 2006 7:11 am

Aladriel wrote:OK.. Here's my question about grievances. Say.. I file a grievance against someone. We shall call him 'X'. I just find X annoying. We were in a team game and X just keeps bossing me around instead of working with me. Nothing against the rules, just annoying and a little insulting. I file a grievance. I'm not going to play with X anymore and I know this. But, what's going to stop X from popping up in one of my games again to get revenge for my filing against him? Or are we just assuming that would *never* be the case?


Filing a grievance has the same effect as the old ignore list. They will not be able to join your games.
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Postby Haydena on Thu May 25, 2006 10:15 am

anomie wrote:I have a grievance count of 3 already. I'm getting them not because of my sportsmanship, but for singling out people who I feel deserve a grievance. I don't know if people are going to take the time to investigate my feedback to see how they are lying about me.


I already have looked at your two, as I've played you once and I think you're a very honourable and decent player. I've looked at these games you've played with the guys who gave you grievances.

And DiPPyDolPhin got bored and didn't want to play, so dragged the game on when you didn't wipe him out, even though it would have been a bad move for you. Just looks like someone can't hack getting a greivance...
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Postby lackattack on Thu May 25, 2006 10:24 am

Idea :idea: : To avoid counter-grievances how about a 2 week cool-off period before filing against someone who filed on you?
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Postby HighBorn on Thu May 25, 2006 10:27 am

that might work.. let the other person have a chance to just forget about it.. and if its that important to them than they will remember after the time is up
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Postby Haydena on Thu May 25, 2006 10:30 am

Yeah, that would be a great idea...
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Postby Jota on Thu May 25, 2006 10:49 am

...as long as no one starts filing pre-emptive grievances whenever they themselves do something inappropriate.
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Postby Haydena on Thu May 25, 2006 10:50 am

Didn't think of that :?
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Postby JCole200 on Thu May 25, 2006 3:09 pm

lackattack wrote:Idea :idea: : To avoid counter-grievances how about a 2 week cool-off period before filing against someone who filed on you?


Someone calls me an ahole, then files a grievance, and I don't have the right to file one on them? I don't think thats appropriate.

One persons claim to a grievance isn't anymore valid then the 2nd person putting one in.

I think you are fooling yourself into believing people are going to always put claims that are valid. I'd love to have an "official" comment on my two grievances. I consider them completely invalid. But what can I do about it? Nada.
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Postby vtmarik on Thu May 25, 2006 3:15 pm

JCole200 wrote:
lackattack wrote:Idea :idea: : To avoid counter-grievances how about a 2 week cool-off period before filing against someone who filed on you?


Someone calls me an ahole, then files a grievance, and I don't have the right to file one on them? I don't think thats appropriate.

One persons claim to a grievance isn't anymore valid then the 2nd person putting one in.

I think you are fooling yourself into believing people are going to always put claims that are valid. I'd love to have an "official" comment on my two grievances. I consider them completely invalid. But what can I do about it? Nada.


How about a "shenanigans" button. Something like:

"If you feel that this grievance is unjustified, call Shenanigans and a moderator will view your rebuttal."
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Postby Phx99 on Thu May 25, 2006 3:25 pm

not to sound greedy, but is there a way to have both the "ignore" and "grievances"? There are people I find just obnoxious, and would rather ignore, but can't do it without a grievance...

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Postby lackattack on Thu May 25, 2006 3:46 pm

JCole200 wrote:Someone calls me an ahole, then files a grievance, and I don't have the right to file one on them? I don't think thats appropriate.
...
I'd love to have an "official" comment on my two grievances. I consider them completely invalid. But what can I do about it? Nada.

No matter how frivolous the grievance, you DON'T have a right to file back. That's ABUSE.

On the other hand, you CAN leave an "official comment". Go to My Grievances -> Grievances Against Me and fill out your response.
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Postby wicked on Thu May 25, 2006 3:50 pm

lackattack wrote:No matter how frivolous the grievance, you DON'T have a right to file back. That's ABUSE.


Sure you do, if you've played them within the last 30 days. Or at least that's how the system is set up and currently being used, although that might not have been the original intent.
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Postby Patroclus on Thu May 25, 2006 3:52 pm

lackattack wrote:Idea :idea: : To avoid counter-grievances how about a 2 week cool-off period before filing against someone who filed on you?


Lack: Good idea, but in my opinion 2 weeks is a bit long. Most of the "Counter Grievers" may be idiots and forget within a week. Those with a valid counter maybe should be able to respond in a week, or at your descretion, as always, 6 days, 6 days and 7 minutes, 7 days and 6 minutes, 9 days....., Well, you must get the idea. :mrgreen:
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Postby lackattack on Thu May 25, 2006 4:01 pm

wicked wrote:
lackattack wrote:No matter how frivolous the grievance, you DON'T have a right to file back. That's ABUSE.


Sure you do, if you've played them within the last 30 days. Or at least that's how the system is set up and currently being used, although that might not have been the original intent.

I'm talking about grievances made purely for revenge. I don't want that allowed. It may be technically possible but should be against policy. This seems obvious to me, but it's also obvious that we need guidelines as to what is and is not appropriate to grieve about.
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Grievance does not = ignore

Postby Scarus on Thu May 25, 2006 4:01 pm

I agree with earlier posters that the new grievance system just doesn't suitably replace the old ignore list. The public aspect of it just makes it unworkable. The word grievance just has such a negative connotation.

I can understand that if someone doesn't have the option of putting another player's name on an ignore list that they might feel compelled to file a grievance just so they wouldn't have to play a particular person again, but this public option shouldn't be forced just because we can't do it privately anymore.

I don't know. What's the downside to having both a grievance system, and an ignore list, and reserving the grievance system for really egregious problems?

I would be very upset if I started accumulating grievances. I'm even pissed off that one of my friends has a single unwarranted grievance. (Yes I'm posting in the flamewar forum next....).

Can't wait for the poll. Don't see how anyone wouldn't want to have both.
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Postby JCole200 on Thu May 25, 2006 4:23 pm

lackattack wrote:I'm talking about grievances made purely for revenge. I don't want that allowed. It may be technically possible but should be against policy. This seems obvious to me, but it's also obvious that we need guidelines as to what is and is not appropriate to grieve about.


How determing the difference is next to impossible unless someone full on says "this is because you filed on me." There is no rules to giving them, so there is no 'wrong' filing.

All I know, is that someone called me ahole, then filed a grievance against me. Then someone used abusive language in filing another grievance against me. Neither of these things have been reviewed by anyone, and I have no avenue to get them removed. I have only two things I can do right now, tell "my side of the story" that no one will read. And file a grievance against them, warning other players that they are ridiculous. If this second avenue is gone, then its a beat you to the punch issue.

I would go on to say, that filing a grievance against someone that is unwarranted SHOULD be grounds to file a grievance back. I haven't filed at all versus my two, because there is no reason for it, but I think it would be pretty legitment to file a grievance and write "Filed un-warranted grievance against me." That IS my grievance with them. If they would have called me an ahole and let it ago, then no one is the wiser and life moves on. But with the new system its now aired in public.

I wouldn't play versus someone who had a grievance that said "Filed un-warranted grievance against me." That's more valuable to me then "this guy sucks balls" or whatever that guy wrote about me, despite the RULE that states abusive language isn't allowed.
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Postby Marvaddin on Thu May 25, 2006 9:35 pm

Tsc, tsc... this grievance thing is much more trouble than help... As I predicted, some guys are using it to abuse. Where is my ignore list?
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Postby anomie on Sat May 27, 2006 11:25 am

I think a followup to a grievance could be good instead of the response. I have 4 grievances from multis or poor sports that are getting revenge. It's hard to make one response to fit all these grievances and I expect it's only going to get more difficult.

I'd also like it if I can include some html in my response so that people can be directly linked to the games in question.

I think a positive feedback system could help. There are plenty of grievances I've read that I can tell are for revenge for other players. Maybe some sort of voting system on grievances? for those that care, they can vote on the validity of the grievances against another player? The majority of players on cc seem to be honorable and mature, their votes should outweigh these cheaters? It does admittedly sound complicated to me, however.

The ignore list worked so far as if you read these forums, you'd know who to ignore. But I know that users such as omega_squad and fatwhitelump are definite cheaters, yet they're still allowed to play. I like the grievance system for the fact that users who don't browse the forums can quickly see what kind of people are playing before they join the game.

I don't like the cooling off period because I accused someone of being a multi in game chat without a grievance, and they filed a grievance before the game even ended against me instead of proving me wrong (which they still haven't done). They could join or start plenty more games before I had a chance to file my own grievance.
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Postby Mateo on Tue May 30, 2006 7:23 pm

While in theory a good idea, the grievance system is too easily abused. I have seen multiple occassions where one player will file a grievance, and the person who received the grievance will respond by filing another one against the first player. I myself have been a victim of an unfounded grievance filed against me in response. It is too hard to sort out what grievances are true and which ones are malicious, filed as revenge for another grievance or a lost game. I don't know if there is a better way, but if u could think of one, it would be a great addition to an already great website. Thanks :)
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Lots of grievances?

Postby lobos on Wed May 31, 2006 11:14 am

so...those who haven't played against max_is_gr8 are unable to add him as a "grievance"

This is the problem I have with the grievance system. On the one hand, I understand the idea of having to play a person before filing a grievance against them. But on the other hand... If one sees that a person has 10 grievances against them, reads them all, feels that there is an awful lot of evidence that that person is a jerk and ought not to be played with, they cannot avoid that player without first filing their own grievance against that person. But as I understand it, you can't file a grievance against a person until you have played them yourself, and even if you could, it's not a system where you're supposed to write a "he has a lot of other grievances" grievance. So a person who is generally irritating and abusive without actually breaking any rules can just move on to the next "sucker"... :)

I realize that the ignore system wouldn't have helped with this, either -- then I didn't KNOW a person was an asshole before playing them! But it still seems odd.

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Grievance without ignoring?

Postby Darklord001 on Wed May 31, 2006 4:09 pm

I'm playing a game in which two well respected players have decided to cause difficulty and delay their play to eventually deadbeat.

Now, I would like to file a grievance against them, because I think this is poor sportsmanship, but I don't want to "hold a grudge" and be unable to play against them in the future.

Can I file a grievance, but choose to play against them again?

if not, why not? (if the answer is "too hard to program" that is a flaw in the grievance system)
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