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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:53 pm
by dolomite13
koontz1973 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:1) fanatics and Wizards rely on you having a favored territory.
2) you can lose your race and not recover it hence also lose a favored territory.

And as I have said, nukes change a lot of games. These are not huge and you should not concern yourself with it. Having each of the races slightly different means you get different strategy for them.


True I will say I am good with game play then.

=D=

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:09 pm
by dolomite13
Gilligan has graciously offered to take control of the XML on this one.

This makes me so happy as his work on other maps XML has been fantastic.

=D=

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:10 pm
by isaiah40
This map is a pleasure to look at! I don't see anything, unless my eyes are too old and can't see clearly. 8-[

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:43 pm
by dolomite13
Just noticed J1, J2, J3, J4 are in the wrong order... I tried to number territories so that all player starting territories ended in the number 1 and then they were numbered by distance from territory 1 with 2 being the next closest and 4 being the farthest.

=D=

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:59 pm
by RedBaron0
Sounds like a simple fix, and I don't see any issue either, and I see perfectly fine. :P Lets hear any last concerns on this one kids.

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:49 pm
by EricPhail
Okay this is my first time looking at this map so things may have been answered already:

1. Wizards: given you must conquer maestrom from a favourite territory and its a killer neutral, is the bombardment from maelstrom itself to your favourite territories a bit redundant, since your favourite territories are now adjacent?

Also the maestrom symbols should have the same coloration (all pale or none pale) minor nitpick but...

2. General terminology:
I am assuming that by borders you mean is next to, and adjacent means can be reinforced/attacked from/to (otherwise the concept of adjacency seems a needless description with no value)
BUT
given that borders is the word used for attacks/reinforces across this line both ways in both the standard rules and in the BOB rollover description (ie. territory a borders territory b) Is this choice of wording not confusing since you've effectively change the meaning of a site wide word for this maps legend only

3. The legend is worded such that the elementalist bonus is given if you control 2 volcanos or 2 tundra but not twice if you control both is the case? If not VV +2 TT+2 is clearer

4. Druid bonus as elementalist in 3. above

5. Given plains has 2 crypts and tundra 2 radiation, (all other types have 1 each of 2 types save volcanos which only has a crypt)
is the drop of Humans + dwellers or Yeti + cultists unfairly powerfull

6. Dragonkin seems the weakest race because volcanoes are the only terrain type not to border the forbidden lands, and they only have one feature (1 crypt) where everyone else has 2, or am I just reading to much into that?

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 11:41 pm
by dolomite13
EricPhail wrote:1. Wizards: given you must conquer maestrom from a favourite territory and its a killer neutral, is the bombardment from maelstrom itself to your favourite territories a bit redundant, since your favourite territories are now adjacent?


I would like a way to use up forces that you have on the maelstrom so you don't get anything stuck there but maybe its not necessary at all. I thint that the bombard can be removed. Or maybe the bombard can be changed to bombards the forbidden lands.

Any thoughts about that?

EricPhail wrote:Also the maestrom symbols should have the same coloration (all pale or none pale) minor nitpick but...


Agreed...

EricPhail wrote:2. General terminology:
I am assuming that by borders you mean is next to, and adjacent means can be reinforced/attacked from/to (otherwise the concept of adjacency seems a needless description with no value)
BUT
given that borders is the word used for attacks/reinforces across this line both ways in both the standard rules and in the BOB rollover description (ie. territory a borders territory b) Is this choice of wording not confusing since you've effectively change the meaning of a site wide word for this maps legend only


I will look at the terminology... thanks...

EricPhail wrote:3. The legend is worded such that the elementalist bonus is given if you control 2 volcanos or 2 tundra but not twice if you control both is the case? If not VV +2 TT+2 is clearer


Agreed this can be laid out better.

EricPhail wrote:4. Druid bonus as elementalist in 3. above


Agreed...

EricPhail wrote:5. Given plains has 2 crypts and tundra 2 radiation, (all other types have 1 each of 2 types save volcanos which only has a crypt)
is the drop of Humans + dwellers or Yeti + cultists unfairly powerfull


If the symbols on P4 and T3 swap and we swap f3 and d4 it would balance them a bot better... any thoughts?

EricPhail wrote:6. Dragonkin seems the weakest race because volcanoes are the only terrain type not to border the forbidden lands, and they only have one feature (1 crypt) where everyone else has 2, or am I just reading to much into that?


Actually volcano's and desert's don't... but since you start with only one territory, what borders the forbidden lands isn't really that important as by the time you can utilize it you will most likely have at least half of the map.

Good stuff Eric* very good stuff.

The interesting thing about this map will be how the players react to what race/special combos everyone starts with. If one is seen as overpowered I expect that people will target that player first and it will be a strategy that develops over time as people play the map. The real goal of this map is not 100% balance but a map that gives us a lot of variety and changes our strategies every game. And I think that what we have will do just that.

=D=

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:17 am
by EricPhail
Dolomite:

The symbol swap re:5 looks like it would improve balance a bit so I like that

6. You're right I didn't notice desert also missed the forbidden lands, and I take your point, it probably doesn't matter (but its better we at least talked about it, rather than letting it pass unremarked)

Glad I could help (looks really good btw)

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 10:22 pm
by RedBaron0
Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 12:13 am
by dolomite13
RedBaron0 wrote:Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Probably have an update this or next week sometime. Just started a new job and been super busy with that and my freelance wen dev work.

=D=

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:05 am
by dolomite13
dolomite13 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Probably have an update this or next week sometime. Just started a new job and been super busy with that and my freelance wen dev work.

=D=


Just checking in as I didn't want you to think I abandoned work on it. I have time set aside tomorrow evening for CC map development and will post the update late tomorrow =)

=D=

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:51 pm
by RedBaron0
dolomite13 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Probably have an update this or next week sometime. Just started a new job and been super busy with that and my freelance wen dev work.

=D=


Just checking in as I didn't want you to think I abandoned work on it. I have time set aside tomorrow evening for CC map development and will post the update late tomorrow =)

=D=


uh huh... make it quick, you're over as it is.

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Cleaner Small Map 5/1

PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:09 pm
by dolomite13
RedBaron0 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
RedBaron0 wrote:Just kinda waiting on an update for these recent suggestions and you'll be likely good-to-go here dolomite.

Probably have an update this or next week sometime. Just started a new job and been super busy with that and my freelance wen dev work.

=D=


Just checking in as I didn't want you to think I abandoned work on it. I have time set aside tomorrow evening for CC map development and will post the update late tomorrow =)

=D=


uh huh... make it quick, you're over as it is.


I know ... I might even do the update this evening as the wife decided to go out with work friends to happy hour which means I have a bit of free time this evenin =)

=D=

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:24 am
by dolomite13
Made a few changes... here we go
- maelstrom no longer bombards
- J1 - J4 order shifted a bit to make it consistent with other territories
- swapped a few icons in T4-P4 and F3-D4
- reworded a few things to make them clearer
- large map is 840 x 800 and small map is now 620 x 590 (down from 630 wide)

=D13=

Starting Forces - http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/6117/kk024start.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img59/7667/kk024sm.png
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http://imageshack.us/a/img402/1184/kk024lg.png
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:37 am
by EricPhail
Nice, liking the improved legend entries for Elementalists and druids, wording looks cleaner to me.

Which leaves wizards (consitent colouring of the maelstrom icons) as the only thing I can see that looks a bit iffy

So other than that, looks good :)

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:29 pm
by RedBaron0
I'm having an extremely difficult time interpreting the legend, the special features primarily. The Wizards is especially confusing.

I do see what Eric is saying about the Maelstrom icons, the bigger one is pink in the middle, while the littler ones are redder, the colors should be consistent.

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:29 pm
by dolomite13
RedBaron0 wrote:I'm having an extremely difficult time interpreting the legend, the special features primarily. The Wizards is especially confusing.

I do see what Eric is saying about the Maelstrom icons, the bigger one is pink in the middle, while the littler ones are redder, the colors should be consistent.


I am not at all satisfied with Wizards and think I have an idea how it can be changed to make it cooler and easier to understand. I would start by removing the maelstrom and all existing abilities and replace them as follows.

Key Entry
[F] Territories that border the forbidden lands

Wizards
2x[F] +2
4x[F] +5
6x[F] +8

This would shrink the height of the wizards area and give me some wiggle room elsewhere for clarifications.

I will also take another pass at all of the abilities and the key to see if there is any way to make it easier to understand.

=D13=

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:29 pm
by EricPhail
dolomite13 wrote:Key Entry
[F] Territories that border the forbidden lands

Wizards
[F][F] +2
[F][F][F][F] +5
[F][F][F][F][F][F] +8

This would shrink the height of the wizards area and give me some wiggle room elsewhere for clarifications.

I will also take another pass at all of the abilities and the key to see if there is any way to make it easier to understand.

=D13=


Nice idea, could work:
You'll need something other than [F] though since that will be too easily confused for forest - [Fl] maybe, or perhaps a similar symbol (in black) to the adjacent to seas one (but that would have to be notably different to the aformentioned adj(seas) symbol to avoid confusion - diagonal break in the other direction perhaps)

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:38 pm
by dolomite13
I have been working on cleaning up the key and changing wizards and I realized that "Fishermen" is just plain weird. I would like to change them to "Aquatic" and change seas as follows.

Old Way
-- Seas cannot be assault or be assaulted

Fishermen
- Can assault seas
- Seas autodeploy 2
- Seas that border are territories you control are adjacent
* This allows you to conquer a sea then reinforce across the sea if you control territories on both sides.

New Way
-- Seas can be bombarded by and can assault bordering territories

Aquatic
- Can assault seas
- Seas +2 bonus each
* this allows you to conquer and then assault from seas effectively taking them away as impassible terrain for you.

Thoughts???

=D13=

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:49 pm
by EricPhail
Could work, it leaves seas as an eternal spoil location for everyone else mind (TBH I'd leave it as it is for now see how people find it in beta) but if you like the new version better (to balance the bonus correctly, + 1 each , +5 for all might be a better starting position - +2 each is going to be overpowered for sure)

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/3)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:02 pm
by dolomite13
EricPhail wrote:Could work, it leaves seas as an eternal spoil location for everyone else mind (TBH I'd leave it as it is for now see how people find it in beta) but if you like the new version better (to balance the bonus correctly, + 1 each , +5 for all might be a better starting position - +2 each is going to be overpowered for sure)


I do like this much better. Seas and the Forbidden Lands are the only 2 territories that are bordered by 6 other territories and they are quite spread out. I feel like it will be quite difficult for the "Aquatic" player to take and hold a Sea but you could be right in that the bonus for holding them may be too high. However consider that if you pull "Elementalist Dragonkin" you could have a +2 bonus by conquering only 2 territories. Same for "Aquatic". However the special ability is more in line with the "Dwellers" and they suffer a slight decrease in bonus. So I am inclined to go with your recommendation of +1, +2, +3, +5.

=D13=

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - Map Update (6/18)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:33 pm
by dolomite13
Latest images and changes

* Wizards gain bonuses from controlling territories that border the forbidden lands
* 2 = +2
* 4 = +5
* 6 = +8

* Seas can be bombarded by and can assault bordering territories
* Fishermen now Aquatic
* Aquatic can assault seas
* Aquatic Seas +1 bonus each +1 more for all 4

Small
https://imageshack.com/a/img849/9510/fifw.png
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Large
https://imageshack.com/a/img801/7606/ekq.png
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Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/18)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:53 pm
by EricPhail
Looks good to me, I really like the symbol for bordering the forbidden lands

Question re: bonuses
1 Favourite is +1, 2 = +2 etc
4 is +8 (1 each and 4 for all 4)?

Fanatics seem to be (including standard bonuses)
1= +1
2 = +4 (2+2)
3 = +8 (3+5)
4 = +16 (4+4+8)

It's barbarians that I'm not sure on, is it:
If they hold the horde they get an extra +1 per favorite
Meaning without horde as normal
With Horde:
1 = +4 (1+1+ auto 2)
2 = +6 (2+2+ auto 2)
3 = +8 (3+3+ auto 2)
4 = +14 (4+4+4 + auto 2)?
if so thats rather overpowered given it also borders all your favorite territories (and is thus a shortcut)
you may wish to rebalance it's bonuses

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/18)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:43 pm
by dolomite13
EricPhail wrote:Looks good to me, I really like the symbol for bordering the forbidden lands

Thanks

EricPhail wrote:Question re: bonuses
1 Favourite is +1, 2 = +2 etc
4 is +8 (1 each and 4 for all 4)?


Correct... I think I have an idea... see below

EricPhail wrote:Fanatics seem to be (including standard bonuses)
1= +1
2 = +4 (2+2)
3 = +8 (3+5)
4 = +16 (4+4+8)


Fanatics are in addition to your favorites ... this may need to be scaled back a tiny bit

EricPhail wrote:It's barbarians that I'm not sure on, is it:
If they hold the horde they get an extra +1 per favorite
Meaning without horde as normal
With Horde:
1 = +4 (1+1+ auto 2)
2 = +6 (2+2+ auto 2)
3 = +8 (3+3+ auto 2)
4 = +14 (4+4+4 + auto 2)?
if so thats rather overpowered given it also borders all your favorite territories (and is thus a shortcut)
you may wish to rebalance it's bonuses


This does seem a bit much ... the demons autodeploy also seems like a bonus that cant be taken away like others can ...

I am going to look at demons, barbarians, and fanatics...

and

the big idea... I am going to add a note that all bonuses are cumulative, provide an example and change the bonus amounts to reflect this.

=D13=

Re: Krazy Kingdoms [D, GP] - GR/GP Updated (6/18)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:13 am
by dolomite13
I think this is it for changes in mechanics.

Probably need one more look at graphics though as the specials can be spaced out a little better yet.

We don't need every special to be 100% balanced. Players will figure out what kingdom/special combos are a bit more overpowered and will take steps to control or eliminate those players before they get out of control. And the forbidden lands can be used to clear the game of bonuses. Leaving you with non favored/non adjacent and that's not fantastic basically changing the board for a person who has lost their kingdom and special to that of the standard 1/3 game mechanic. Overall I see the game as being a mass of chaos but providing players with a unique play experience every game.

v0.2.6 - Changes

* Added note that all bonuses are cumulative
* changed barbarians to get +1 for every 2 territories not favored and not adjacent to favored (+7 max)
* removed a bonus from barbarians
* changed horde to decay 1 (from auto 2)
* changed demons to auto 1 (from 3)
* changed demons to +1 per demons territory down from +2
* fanatics total bonus now +6 down from +8
* all bonuses brought in line with cumulative structure

If you held all 4 favored territories, 3 adjacent and 6 (non adjacent/non favored) you would have a bonus of +13 (8+3+2)
If you were also "undead" and held 2 territories with Crypts you would get an additional +4

Barbarians are now more in line with their original design and I was able to get "decay" back on the map.

=D13=

SMALL
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LARGE
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