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[Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:36 am

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:Dolomite, for what it's worth I've started 3 or 4 games on the map so far and I'm beginning to wonder if it'd be worthwhile to have the starting territories start with 5 instead of 3. As it is now, you've got to roll a 4 vs. 3 and often enough it means you don't take a territory the first turn, which slows the game down and makes it possible for someone else to get a distinct advantage early in the game if they don't get screwed by dice.

I am actually wondering if setting the map to minimum of 0 was a bad idea as the only bonus you get first turn is the favored territory bonus of +1 however If the minimum were set to 2 you would get that 2 plus the favored territory bonus and start with 3. However you could then move 3 an have a stack of 12 on your 2nd turn. Maybe kingdoms could change to auto 2. To help with this as well.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby Gilligan on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:36 am

dolomite13 wrote:
Donelladan wrote:
Well i still think that the +1 tert for the 12th ability is pretty cool. I m in a trips game where everyone has 2 abilities, including the +1 tert. Don t know if it s balanced.

Definitely unbalanced !!
I think you can die too easily on that map.


The extra territory is definitely a bug. And yes the map is unbalanced. The goal of the map was to create a more master level map where plays would need to identify which p,Ayer got the good start and diplomacy would be needed to stop that player. In 2 player games it is pret much just unfair at that point. I am considering a max of 2 start positions which would help.

D13


Are you talking about limiting the number of unique abilities?
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:55 pm

Gilligan wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
Donelladan wrote:
Well i still think that the +1 tert for the 12th ability is pretty cool. I m in a trips game where everyone has 2 abilities, including the +1 tert. Don t know if it s balanced.

Definitely unbalanced !!
I think you can die too easily on that map.


The extra territory is definitely a bug. And yes the map is unbalanced. The goal of the map was to create a more master level map where plays would need to identify which p,Ayer got the good start and diplomacy would be needed to stop that player. In 2 player games it is pret much just unfair at that point. I am considering a max of 2 start positions which would help.

D13


Are you talking about limiting the number of unique abilities?


d13
No that is how I like it I would like to expand it do you can have 2 kingdoms/favored territories in 2,3,and 4 player games instead of just 1. And fix it so it properly drops on the special abilities.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby Gilligan on Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:27 pm

dolomite13 wrote:
Gilligan wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:
Donelladan wrote:
Well i still think that the +1 tert for the 12th ability is pretty cool. I m in a trips game where everyone has 2 abilities, including the +1 tert. Don t know if it s balanced.

Definitely unbalanced !!
I think you can die too easily on that map.


The extra territory is definitely a bug. And yes the map is unbalanced. The goal of the map was to create a more master level map where plays would need to identify which p,Ayer got the good start and diplomacy would be needed to stop that player. In 2 player games it is pret much just unfair at that point. I am considering a max of 2 start positions which would help.

D13


Are you talking about limiting the number of unique abilities?


d13
No that is how I like it I would like to expand it do you can have 2 kingdoms/favored territories in 2,3,and 4 player games instead of just 1. And fix it so it properly drops on the special abilities.


Yeah you could do that...but what isn't being proper on special abilities?
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:09 pm

Gilligan wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:d13
No that is how I like it I would like to expand it do you can have 2 kingdoms/favored territories in 2,3,and 4 player games instead of just 1. And fix it so it properly drops on the special abilities.


Yeah you could do that...but what isn't being proper on special abilities?


If I understand correctly, it sounds like D1 is acting like a 12th special ability, so when there's 2 players it gives the players 4 special abilities each instead of 3, since there's 12/3 special ability territories. Once D1 update is posted, it should fix the problem. Presuming I'm following what's going on correctly.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby Gilligan on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:24 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
Gilligan wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:d13
No that is how I like it I would like to expand it do you can have 2 kingdoms/favored territories in 2,3,and 4 player games instead of just 1. And fix it so it properly drops on the special abilities.


Yeah you could do that...but what isn't being proper on special abilities?


If I understand correctly, it sounds like D1 is acting like a 12th special ability, so when there's 2 players it gives the players 4 special abilities each instead of 3, since there's 12/3 special ability territories. Once D1 update is posted, it should fix the problem. Presuming I'm following what's going on correctly.


Yes, this is what I was getting at. If dolomite is talking about the D1 then the problem is fixed, just awaiting upload.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby dolomite13 on Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:11 pm

Gilligan wrote:
-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
Gilligan wrote:
dolomite13 wrote:d13
No that is how I like it I would like to expand it do you can have 2 kingdoms/favored territories in 2,3,and 4 player games instead of just 1. And fix it so it properly drops on the special abilities.


Yeah you could do that...but what isn't being proper on special abilities?


If I understand correctly, it sounds like D1 is acting like a 12th special ability, so when there's 2 players it gives the players 4 special abilities each instead of 3, since there's 12/3 special ability territories. Once D1 update is posted, it should fix the problem. Presuming I'm following what's going on correctly.


Yes, this is what I was getting at. If dolomite is talking about the D1 then the problem is fixed, just awaiting upload.


Sounds good...

We will wait till its fixed before making any other tweaks. However I am concerned with manual deployment games. Starting to rethink 3 on each special feature. May need to be just 1. Makes them more vulnerable to forbidden lands. Maybe they could be auto 1.

I am back from vacation and have access to my PC again =D>

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby dolomite13 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:25 pm

Can anyone confirm that holding Lizardmen and barbarians or any Kingdom and Barbarians in a fog game lets you see the Horde space?

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby iAmCaffeine on Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:14 am

I've got three active games where I have Barbarians and cannot see Horde.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby grifftron on Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:41 am

So... in this game Game 13394606

Barbarians (Horde) is one of my special powers, and when I got a big stack.. I advanced on it... but once I advanced, it wouldn't let me attack.. i thought Horde attacks all terts like the bomb, bombards all terts (which worked fine in a different game)... was my turn suppose to end right when I advanced on Horde? Will I be able to attack when I start my next turn? Or is this an issue that needs to be fixed?

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby Gilligan on Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:34 am

grifftron wrote:So... in this game Game 13394606

Barbarians (Horde) is one of my special powers, and when I got a big stack.. I advanced on it... but once I advanced, it wouldn't let me attack.. i thought Horde attacks all terts like the bomb, bombards all terts (which worked fine in a different game)... was my turn suppose to end right when I advanced on Horde? Will I be able to attack when I start my next turn? Or is this an issue that needs to be fixed?

-griff


Your game is trench

iAmCaffeine wrote:I've got three active games where I have Barbarians and cannot see Horde.


Screenshot?
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby grifftron on Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:11 pm

ah.. good eye gill... plus I just found out the hard way that it just attacks only my favored terts.. bomb is wayyyy better.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby -=- Tanarri -=- on Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:18 am

grifftron wrote:ah.. good eye gill... plus I just found out the hard way that it just attacks only my favored terts.. bomb is wayyyy better.


Bomb only bombards though, the Horde basically allows you a short cut to gaining your 4 favored territory bonus and opens up the board significantly.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Proposed Balance Changes 9/29

Postby dolomite13 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:54 pm

OK based on the week or so of games I have played and the ones I have been monitoring here is a ton of thoughts from me. Please feel free to discuss these as I feel like there are a ton of things that need to be done to better balance the map or at least keep it fun for everyone.

GENERAL GAMEPLAY

1) Special Features: I have noticed that in manual deployment games the 3 troops on the special features translates into 3 troops for the main map and in 2 player games that is 8 troops! ... I feel like these need to drop to 1n from 3n and be changed to auto 1 so that as the game progresses they will be more resistant to being eliminated by the forbidden lands.

2) Forbidden Lands: Speaking of the forbidden lands I feel like the 20n seems pretty good in games with more players as it usually doesn't come down to that. However in low number of player games with escalating bonus it seems a bit low. I have two thoughts for this. A) Bump the neutrals up to 30n Killer 30.

3) Starting Forces: Not sure how I feel about starting forces ... I almost feel its a bit slow at the start but if you just reinforce on turn 1 then you have 8 troops on turn 2 vs 3 neutral and should get that territory although the dice have been unkind to me on this map. Does anyone else have feedback about this?

4) Starting Positions: One thing I have noticed about 2 or 3 player games is that if you start next to an opponent and they get bad dice you can quite easily overwhelm them. I propose setting a Max of 2 starting kingdom/favored starts instead of the max of 1 as it is currently set. This would allow 1-4 player games to be a bit more balanced at the start.

5) Starting Neutrals: I am not sure that the 5n's in M4, T4, S4, P4, F3, J3 are doing their job at discouraging easy kills of neighbors who got dice screwed. The xml fix for the bugged bridges over the chasms may help. As for D2 and V2 they should probably remain n5 or be dropped to n3 to give incentive to go that way rather than through the aforementioned areas.

6) Elimination: How do you folks feel about the "hold at least one basic land or you are eliminated"? does this make the games too fast? does it make games unfair for people who get dice screwed? Should it stay? Should it go?

SPECIAL FEATURES

7) Aquatic: I am not certain the bonus for aquatic is what I was looking for. But I just don't know how I feel about it. It seems like a bonus needs to come just a tad quicker. I would like to add a +1 for having at least 1 territory adjacent to a sea and then the existing structure on top of that. So the 1st territory is +1 then at 3 you have +2 and at 6 +3 etc. I also feel that seas should be 1 less and Killer 2 to make them more attractive to jump across.

8) Cultists - The Bomb: I feel the bomb needs to be reigned in a tiny bit by either increasing the neutral value or limiting range. I would consider an increase from 7n to 13n. I have easily won 2 player games with the bomb in 5 or 6 turns and that may just be too good. The bomb also doesn't need to target seas anymore as seas are killer.

9) Demonic - Underworld: It seems like the minion bonus is low at +1 and auto 1 is a small consolation for assaulting 7n troops on underworld. I feel like this should be dropped to 5n to make it more attractive.

10) Druids & Elementalists: Based on what I see the bonuses for them seem to be too hard to acquire. I want to propose a slightly different structure.

Existing structure is [J][J] +2* [F][F] +2* and [T][T] +2* [V][V] +2*
Proposed new bonus structure [J][J] +1* [F][F] +1* [F][J] +1* and [T][T] +1* [V][V] +1* [T][V] +1*

This would grant the same maximum troops but let a bonus be drawn form combos of either so it would be easier to get at least some bonus and makes a very interesting bonus structure

[T][T] + 1
[V][V] + 1
[T][V] + 1
[T][T][V] + 2
[V][T][T] + 2
[V][T][T][T] + 2
[V][V][V][T] + 2
[T][T][V][V] + 4
[T][T][T][T][V][V] + 5
[T][T][V][V][V][V] + 5
[T][T][T][V][V][V] + 5
[T][T][T][T][V][V][V] + 6
[T][T][T][V][V][V][V] + 6
[T][T][T][T][V][V][V][V] + 8

KINGDOM CHANGES

KINGDOMS: I did have one BIG thought. What if I decoupled the kingdom from the first territory so that kingdoms just represented your physical race and your favored territory. They would start with 1n and have auto 1 and provide a +2 bonus. This way they would be like special features and would be more resistant through the game to being eliminated by forbidden lands (although nukes still wreak havoc). This way you get a 3 drop right from the start and get that 3 every turn pretty much (unless you lose that kingdom). This might speed up the early game just a bit but would provide slightly less troops overall. With the max 2 change I also propose this would let players in 2 player games start with 6 bonus right from the start. This may seem like a major change in gameplay but should actually balance the game and take out that need to remember to move those troops and because basic lands are what count for elimination its not like stacking on the kingdom helps you in any way. And we could leave the starting neutral 5's as they are.

NOTE: None of the changes proposed change the number of territories but do change starting forces and a few connections.

OK that's all I have based on what I have seen thus far ... please feel free to comment as I would like to make changes this week and try and get them into the xml asap.

=D13=

========================================================================

These images reflect my ideas above or at least the parts of my ideas above that I would like to implement.

* seas killer 2 (more attractive for aquatic).
* the bomb killer 13 (slows down early use of bomb).
* forbidden lands killer 30 (slows down early use).
* kingdom no longer assaults anything, starts with 1n and is auto 1, grants +2 bonus (should make the map easier to understand).
* special features start 1n and auto 1 (less manual deploy troops).
* druid bonus change (see above).
* elemental bonus change (see above).
* aquatic bonus change (added +1 for minimum 1 adjacent to sea) this mill make max 8 instead of the previous 7.

Small v2.0.0
http://imageshack.com/a/img849/2430/luox.png
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Large v2.0.0
http://imageshack.com/a/img197/4677/4mxg.png
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/26

Postby DearCyrus on Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:17 pm

I agree that getting dice screwed WILL get you eliminated quickly. I will need to do a deeper read, but for now I feel that all of your proposed changes seem logical. I am all for them.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms

Postby grifftron on Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:31 pm

-=- Tanarri -=- wrote:
grifftron wrote:ah.. good eye gill... plus I just found out the hard way that it just attacks only my favored terts.. bomb is wayyyy better.


Bomb only bombards though, the Horde basically allows you a short cut to gaining your 4 favored territory bonus and opens up the board significantly.


But on a map that you have to be on the main land just to survive... i would rather have the bomb over the horde any day.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/26

Postby Gilligan on Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:15 am

1) Special Features: I have noticed that in manual deployment games the 3 troops on the special features translates into 3 troops for the main map and in 2 player games that is 8 troops! ... I feel like these need to drop to 1n from 3n and be changed to auto 1 so that as the game progresses they will be more resistant to being eliminated by the forbidden lands.


I thought of this as well, but did not post about it since there is nothing that can be done about it. Having it as n1 doesn't mean that when someone gets it, it has a value of 1, it has a value of 1 if no one gets it. The only way to change starting troop values is through positions, and you have already used positions (can't use two)
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/26

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:57 pm

Gilligan wrote:
1) Special Features: I have noticed that in manual deployment games the 3 troops on the special features translates into 3 troops for the main map and in 2 player games that is 8 troops! ... I feel like these need to drop to 1n from 3n and be changed to auto 1 so that as the game progresses they will be more resistant to being eliminated by the forbidden lands.


I thought of this as well, but did not post about it since there is nothing that can be done about it. Having it as n1 doesn't mean that when someone gets it, it has a value of 1, it has a value of 1 if no one gets it. The only way to change starting troop values is through positions, and you have already used positions (can't use two)


Hmmm... I guess we can leave it as it is on the special features then and we could set the kingdom to 3 as well and not have the auto on them at all. To be honest it may be more fun to have those extra troops in the manual deployment games... In a 2 player game if we increase to max positions of 2 that would be 2 kingdoms, 2 start territories, and 3 special features... or 10 troops to manual deploy if my count is right ... I guess that's ok as everyone will have that stack of 10 on their start territory. In non manual deployment games they will have 2 from each kingdom and 1 for each favored territory or 6 to deploy. I can live with those numbers and will drop those auto 1's from my updated maps this evening.

Any thoughts on the amount of troops on "the Bomb" or "Forbidden Lands"?

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/26

Postby Donelladan on Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:11 pm

6) Elimination: How do you folks feel about the "hold at least one basic land or you are eliminated"? does this make the games too fast? does it make games unfair for people who get dice screwed? Should it stay? Should it go?


I don't like it. I played 2vs2 sunny. It was stacking game then my opponent made a try to kill me, failed, I killed him. Boring game. No one tried the bonus since taking them would mean automatic death for us.

I am playing escalating 8 player, so far the map isn't suited for that game at all, you almost can't take card, and people that do can get way too easily eliminated.

I'd like to see that feature changed. Or make the map bigger, more territory between player. Then people may actually try to take a bonus and stay alive to use it.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/26

Postby greenoaks on Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:52 pm

i am in my first 1v1 game and most likely will be eliminated soon as the other guy is stacking. it looks to be a boring map for that mode like Realms 1 is. not suggesting a change, just pointing it out.
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/26

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:55 pm

Donelladan wrote:
6) Elimination: How do you folks feel about the "hold at least one basic land or you are eliminated"? does this make the games too fast? does it make games unfair for people who get dice screwed? Should it stay? Should it go?


I don't like it. I played 2vs2 sunny. It was stacking game then my opponent made a try to kill me, failed, I killed him. Boring game. No one tried the bonus since taking them would mean automatic death for us.

I am playing escalating 8 player, so far the map isn't suited for that game at all, you almost can't take card, and people that do can get way too easily eliminated.

I'd like to see that feature changed. Or make the map bigger, more territory between player. Then people may actually try to take a bonus and stay alive to use it.


So I do want to decouple the kingdom from the main map. Would you be opposed to removing the "hold at least one basic land or you are eliminated" and adding a conditional border for kingdoms to assault your choice of one of your 4 favored territories only if you have lost all territories on the map? That way the kingdom could build up through the game and if you loose all territories you could jump back in across the map.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/26

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:32 pm

greenoaks wrote:i am in my first 1v1 game and most likely will be eliminated soon as the other guy is stacking. it looks to be a boring map for that mode like Realms 1 is. not suggesting a change, just pointing it out.


Yep I have noticed that in 1v1 if you get opposite corners it can be more interesting than if you are side by side. I am not sure what could be done to fix that sort of a problem. I have been considering a few possible solutions.

A) players could start with 2 of their favored territories (1 & 3 maybe) rather than just 1 which would give them a few possible positions to work from although I am not certain how this would work as it could have some players drop on a bonus if they got the right special feature.

B) Another option may be to go with no elimination from the game and start every player with forces on their kingdom only, and allow them to select which assault any of their favored territories. The extra bonus for holding all 4 favored would be removed and the fanatic bonus would probably need to be be decreased slightly. But would allow players to spread out rather quickly around the map.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/26

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:07 pm

One problem as some people have messaged to me is that the map has soooo few territories. I sort of like that it should result in short games but if the map always seems unbalanced people wont play it. I really don't want to add any territories as it would require shutting down the map and waiting for all games to end before we could upload a new map.

I was at one point considering adding a second location to every territory that would provide the bonus in that territory for each player but only provide it once. For instance P4 has radiation. If I held P4a and P4b and Cultists then I would only get the radiation bonus once. But I could hold P4a and a teammate could hold P4b and if I had cultists I would get my +2 bonus and my teammate were Humans they would get that as a favored territory. I am not certain this would stop the problems people see with being dropped side by side and eliminated too quickly however.

The map could be broken down where each territory was more of a mini continent with 2 or 3 parts separated by internal borders so that each territory was a continent that required all pieces to get the bonus from it and would slow down expansion considerably.

Alternately a mix between the two ideas here where you could hold one part of the territory for the bonus but the total territories would be increased. Slowing down movement but letting teammates share territories for bonuses.

I can do an assessment using the hex grid that the map is based on and post it later for consideration however I would have hoped that this would have been brought up long ago rather than after we hit beta.

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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/26

Postby DearCyrus on Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:28 pm

Sometimes you don't know how you feel tell you get your hands on it...
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Re: [Beta] - Krazy Kingdoms - Balance Change Proposal 9/30

Postby dolomite13 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:34 pm

OK after all of my above rantings etc... here is the changes I want to make for balance and see if it makes the game better.

Graphic Changes
* forbidden lands killer 30 (slows down early use).
* auto 2 (down from 3) and grants +1 bonus (a little less auto and 1 extra troop to deploy. This may promote stacking a bit in team games but then again maybe not).
* druid bonus change (lets druids get a bonus earlier based on distribution of J and F territories).
* elementalist bonus change (lets elementalists get a bonus earlier based on distribution of J and F territories).
* aquatic bonus change (added +1 for minimum 1 adjacent to sea) this mill make max 8 instead of the previous 7 but give a bonus earlier.
* seas killer 2 (more attractive for aquatic).
* changed radiation to +1 each and +3 if you have all 3 radiation to slow down progress of cultists just a bit.
* the bomb killer 13 (slows down early use of bomb).
* changed dwellers to +1 each cavern and +2 for all 3 caverns. (slight decrease based on the caverns adjacent ability being powerful on this small of a map).
* changed miners/mines to +1, +2, +4 which decreases the single mine bonus and overall by 1 (should balance early game a bit)
* changed undead/crypts to +1, +2, +4 which decreases the single crypt bonus and overall by 1 (should balance early game a bit)
* changed wizards special to +1, +2, +4 which decreases the double special bonus and overall by 1 (should balance early game a bit as the forbidden lands bordering territories can be unbalanced for some kingdoms)
* changed the elimination text to add "Kingdom" to what is needed to not be eliminated so that to completely eliminate someone you need to use "forbidden lands" or play a nukes game.

Non Graphic Changes
* reduce underworld to 5n start
* increase 5n starts to 7n for P4, J3, S4, T4, F3, and M4 (should help discourage early assault)
* reduce 5n starts to 3n on V2 and D2 (should focus players as this as the best route to the middle)

Chaos Ensues
* max 2 start positions (2,3,4 player games will get 2 starts) this means if you start with Dragonkin, Gnomes, Cultists, Fanatics, and Undead you would have both "Undead Fanatic Cultists" that got favored territory bonuses from both Volcanic and Mountains. This would make bonuses interesting as overlaps would occur making it very complicated.


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