Three Kingdoms of China - v10.1 [2015-02-01] p15 [Quenched]

[Seamus76]

I will take one final look at it tonight to and address skychaser's comments before stamping. Sound good Seamus?

That's perfect, just let me know what you come up with.

[The Bison King]

Well. Talking on gameplay. Don't we need more bonuses? Wei is surelly stronger, but at this map is the only one who's got easy bonuses.
Take Yang as an example. You must have 6 territories to get a +3 bonus, 6X3 = 18. So you must maybe conquer 18 territories to get a bonus +3. Which will pay itself in over 6 rounds Which means that in most absolute of the matches we will never have one of these territories being taken.


Shu has no bonuses except that unexperienced players of no card and fixed cards may try to take something.
Wei has only two bonuses we can account. Most people would take then given that they are dropped with most territories there. The central part of Wei is not that much of a bonus. You must defeat 27 armies to have a bonus of 5 and 666 borders to defend.

I think this map with virtually no bonuses tends a little to lesser action. Most people would never take nothing than the +1 bonuses and it's not something to make someone jealous or something.

I don't know if people agree to me but I would put a little bit of numbers to the bonuses, the +1 would become +2 and the +2 become +4. All the other with the addiction of 2.

I have 2 thoughts on this.

The first is the obvious solution break up some of the larger bonuses into smaller ones.

The second is a little different. You could scrap the +4 for all the capitals rule. I think that's a little bit of a tired convention and doesn't add much to the map anyway. With that rule scraped you could add a new rule. Something to the tune of +1 for any 3 territories within a kingdom held with the capital. This would make the larger bonus regions more of just a territory buffet. You wouldn't need the entire region to reap a reward so long as you have the capital. The actual territory bonus would probably only come into play at the end game (as it probably would already). This would also give the kingdoms more of a unified feel if holding the capital along with bonus regions was a reward in and of itself.

[The Bison King]

That being said I think Sky Chaser is over emphasizing the need for more obtainable bonuses. I can see 2 bonuses in the red region that could be easily held with 2 territories. You could probably have either of them within round 5. It may not need any serious adjustment.

[Seamus76]

Thanks so much guys for the discussion and feedback, this is great stuff.

That being said I think Sky Chaser is over emphasizing the need for more obtainable bonuses. I can see 2 bonuses in the red region that could be easily held with 2 territories. You could probably have either of them within round 5. It may not need any serious adjustment.

I agree as well. The bonuses have been pretty well examined and seem appropriate for the size of the map.

Also, the more I mull over your capital bonus thoughts the more I like it. There is nothing more I dislike than bonuses that don't get used, so something like this is more appealing. Would the capitals still start 3n or maybe go to 4n because of the new importance?

Nole, very much still interested in your thoughts.

[skychaser]

I didn't make myself clear so let me try again.

The bonuses aren't "hard" do obtain. I mean. Only that People go (in classic) for Australia cause it's easy to obtain and easy to protect. Very seldom one would go for such bonuses after round 3 however. A bonus obtainable by round 5 is a bonus that mostly doesn't exists at least at 6 players escalating(I don't know but I think it's the most played mode.

These bonus will very seldom be taken at escalating.
They will be still taken if it's played by 4 people or less.
They will be taken at Fixed cards and no cards.
They will be taken at escalating provided people are playing fog of war mode(my favorite).

Not ranting here. Just that I thought a slight more bonus would make more wars about these bonuses. I can't see however not many ways of winning in this map aside from turtling in clear escalating game.

[skychaser]

Or it may just be because i like bonuses the most even though I hardly get one any match.(I get a bonus in about 3% of my games in medium maps like this one).

[Graceless_]

Just wanted to say, awesome concept for a map. Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a great book.

[Vlasov]

Mongolia, perhaps?

[Seamus76]

I didn't make myself clear so let me try again.

The bonuses aren't "hard" do obtain. I mean. Only that People go (in classic) for Australia cause it's easy to obtain and easy to protect. Very seldom one would go for such bonuses after round 3 however. A bonus obtainable by round 5 is a bonus that mostly doesn't exists at least at 6 players escalating(I don't know but I think it's the most played mode.

These bonus will very seldom be taken at escalating.
They will be still taken if it's played by 4 people or less.
They will be taken at Fixed cards and no cards.
They will be taken at escalating provided people are playing fog of war mode(my favorite).

Not ranting here. Just that I thought a slight more bonus would make more wars about these bonuses. I can't see however not many ways of winning in this map aside from turtling in clear escalating game.

I play a lot of no spoils dubs games so this is very helpful information, and I really appreciate you taking the time to post. I'm looking forward to playing everyone on the map once it's in beta. Nole was pretty instrumental in helping shape the current bonus structure so we'll see what his thoughts are, and I'll kind of go from there.

Just wanted to say, awesome concept for a map. Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a great book.

Thanks, I think it's going to be a pretty popular map, but we'll see.

[skychaser]

Mongolia, perhaps?

The mongolians lead by Genghis Khan invaded China a couple centuries later the age of the Three Kingdoms of this map.

He wouldn't stand a chance if Zhuge Liang would be alive at the period.

Genghis Khan founded the Yuan Dinasty(that lasted 1000 years), this map represents the batle of three other ones.

Wei is the clan of Cao Cao, later lead by Cao Pi, Shu Han by Liu Bei and later Liu Chan and the Wu by Sun Jian and his sons Sun Ce and Sun Quan.
After these battles the Sima's could unify the country and were defeated later by Ghenghis Khan.

Thus the mongolians are far from here.

[Vlasov]

Okay. Good history. The 3 Kingdoms of China get my vote!

[iancanton]

if u increase the smallest bonuses from +1 to +2, then the kingdom superbonuses (and probably most other bonuses except the ones needing fewest regions) will be ignored.

ian.

[sannemanrobinson]

These two sound logical to me:

The first is the obvious solution break up some of the larger bonuses into smaller ones.

The second is a little different. You could scrap the +4 for all the capitals rule. I think that's a little bit of a tired convention and doesn't add much to the map anyway. With that rule scraped you could add a new rule. Something to the tune of +1 for any 3 territories within a kingdom held with the capital. This would make the larger bonus regions more of just a territory buffet. You wouldn't need the entire region to reap a reward so long as you have the capital. The actual territory bonus would probably only come into play at the end game (as it probably would already). This would also give the kingdoms more of a unified feel if holding the capital along with bonus regions was a reward in and of itself.

Especially the +1 for 3 territories and capital is good.

[skychaser]

Well. Back in the days having the capital and strong cities would be a mean of conquer. Having the capital would guarantee supplies to your armies. In fact any of the provinces and there were many, would have had a capital and that was the logical view so having the capital + regions at the same territory would be nice indeed as game play and as logical historical viewpoint.

[squeaks_is_mine]

As a fan of Kessen 2, and the Dynasty Warriors/Tactics Series I am ecstatic to play this...and if anyone is able can they make a Metro Atlanta, GA Map? Would be much appreciated

[nolefan5311]

Sorry it's taken me so long to post Seamus, but I've had a busy week.

Strictly speaking for the territorial bonuses, the only one I would recommend changing is increasing Central Wei to a +6, but this probably isn't going to matter. Bonuses like this one (ala Asia in Classic) are never held, so it's not going to matter much. One change I think needs to be made is to change the connection from Jianye to He Fei instead of Xu Chang. Currently it's a 6 region +3 bonus that can held by holding two territories (Lu-Ling and Xu Chang). The additional territory being able to attack in would justify the +3 a little more.

Changing that connection would also put the +4 for the Capital bonus more in line with what it should be. Another option for the Capitals is to just make them +1 for holding 1, and then awarding an additional troop for holding all of them at the same time. I'm not sure what your ideal vision for the map is Seamus but currently it appears games will revolve around the Cities and Capitals and this change would further encourage that.

As far as the +1 for every territory held within a Kingdom as long as you hold a Capital...not really a fan of that idea. At most people will probably only ever receive a +2 (prior to the endgame), so I don't think that change is a good idea. But, it's your map, and if that's the direction you decide to go, then godspeed.

I'm also really excited about the community involvement in this one. It appears you've got a hit on your hands here Seamus!

[Seamus76]

Sorry it's taken me so long to post Seamus, but I've had a busy week.

Not a problem at all. Thanks for your time.

Strictly speaking for the territorial bonuses, the only one I would recommend changing is increasing Central Wei to a +6, but this probably isn't going to matter. Bonuses like this one (ala Asia in Classic) are never held, so it's not going to matter much.

Let me know, but I heard "keep it the way it is".

One change I think needs to be made is to change the connection from Jianye to He Fei instead of Xu Chang. Currently it's a 6 region +3 bonus that can held by holding two territories (Lu-Ling and Xu Chang). The additional territory being able to attack in would justify the +3 a little more.

I like this, will be an easy move.

Changing that connection would also put the +4 for the Capital bonus more in line with what it should be. Another option for the Capitals is to just make them +1 for holding 1, and then awarding an additional troop for holding all of them at the same time. I'm not sure what your ideal vision for the map is Seamus but currently it appears games will revolve around the Cities and Capitals and this change would further encourage that.

V.J. and I are going to mull it over a bit, but you know I hate bonuses that don't get used, so a +1 for each and then +4 for all 3 is good to me.

As far as the +1 for every territory held within a Kingdom as long as you hold a Capital...not really a fan of that idea. As most people will probably only ever receive a +2 (prior to the endgame), so I don't think that change is a good idea. But, it's your map, and if that's the direction you decide to go, then godspeed.

I agree with you on this one, V.J. and I will come back with an update tomorrow and hopefully we can keep this one moving along at a nice pace.

[The Bison King]

Also, the more I mull over your capital bonus thoughts the more I like it. There is nothing more I dislike than bonuses that don't get used, so something like this is more appealing. Would the capitals still start 3n or maybe go to 4n because of the new importance?

I'd keep them at 3n

[Seamus76]

CURRENT UPDATE INFO - 2013-02-03:
- After great feedback (thank you all so much), Noles comments, discussion with Koontz and V.J. we're going to keep the Capital bonus as it is, +4 for holding all 3 Capitals. The change will be that the Capitals will start 2n instead of 3n. This will help keep the map simple and not over-bonus a small map, and at the same time allow the Capital bonus to come into play for more types of games. So the map itself hasn't really been updated since v4.1, but the Starting Neutral/888 version has been updated in the OP, and the OP itself has been updated to reflect the new neutrals. I think this will work best, and hope everyone agrees.

CURRENT MAP VERSION

v4.2 - Large (840x800)

Click image to enlarge.

v4.2 - Large (840x800)-with 888's and starting neutrals

show

[nolefan5311]

It looks like you've got quite a bit of input on this one, and I think the Gameplay is excellent. So, that being said, here is your next stamp



Onwards and upwards Seamus

[koontz1973]

Nice stamp by the way.

Seamus, some of your names in Chinese are wrong I believe. Can you double check these and correct if so, but it also might be nicer to add the full title either way. Might be nice to see capitals and cities go local as well. No need to name them in the legend as you also have the symbols.
蜀國 = Kingdom of Shu
王國衛 = Kingdom of Wei
吳國 = kingdom of Wu
首都 = Capitals
城市 = Cities

Mountain range between Wu and Shu could do with thickening up a bit. It looks way to straight and unnatural. I know the style of the map is not realistic, but try to give them some life.
Title is very plain. Try something like this one but you cannot use this one as it is not free to use.
Lastly for now, the sea route, boring. Any chance of seeing something done here? Maybe a couple of junks added going both ways would be a nice addition.

[Seamus76]

Nice stamp by the way.

Seamus, some of your names in Chinese are wrong I believe. Can you double check these and correct if so, but it also might be nicer to add the full title either way. Might be nice to see capitals and cities go local as well. No need to name them in the legend as you also have the symbols.
蜀國 = Kingdom of Shu
王國衛 = Kingdom of Wei
吳國 = kingdom of Wu
首都 = Capitals
城市 = Cities

Mountain range between Wu and Shu could do with thickening up a bit. It looks way to straight and unnatural. I know the style of the map is not realistic, but try to give them some life.
Title is very plain. Try something like this one but you cannot use this one as it is not free to use.
Lastly for now, the sea route, boring. Any chance of seeing something done here? Maybe a couple of junks added going both ways would be a nice addition.

Thanks Koontz as always.

If you can please provide any names that you believe to be incorrect, and the correct name that would be great. The names I have are what I believe to be the correct names, and were taken from the original map, which if you go through that thread were pretty much confirmed to gimil, and he was provided maps (which were not attached unfortunately). But again if you have some just let me know.

What do you mean by "Full Title"? Of the tert names? I don't think that's going to work since I have a few that are going to be tight for the small map anyway, plus I'm pretty happy with them being on the more simple side, especially for names that to most players will be a little hard to pronounce to begin with. I think full titles will just confuse people even more.

As for the Capitals and Cities label in the legend going local, that might (small might) be something I would consider, but I'm not initially a fan of that either. Even though there are symbols, and the bonus would be spelled out in English, I think the feel and intensity of the words "Capitals" and "Cities" (as well as the connection to the symbols) would be lost on the map as most players would only ever look at them as the symbols, unless they speak/read Chinese.

I will certainly look at the mountains, now that we're rockin' the Graphics phase , but we did go through a few versions of mountains and these were some of the best I could do with the limited skills I have. Plus I like 'em thin if you know what I mean.

The title font took a long time to find, and I'm sorry to push back again, but I like the simplicity (you say plainess) of the title and map. The gameplay yes, but mainly the overall simplicity of the aesthetics and ease on the eye and mind is what I really like, and what I think a lot of players are wanting these days.

To that "simple" point, I'll look for some different Junks for the sea route, but I feel I would then need to use space to explain them, while the dots are understood to be a connection and nothing else. And while there might be open spaces, I would say those are somewhat necessary to keep the clutter down and allow the mind some free areas.

Thanks for the feedback, good stuff to keep me thinking, and you know I appreciate it.

[koontz1973]

Sorry Seamus, must stop typing late at night after a hard day. Never make myself clear.

Region names are all correct as far as I am aware. No need to change. It is the mini map titles. You have Kingdom of Wu and this 吳, when it should really be this: 吳國 Same for the others. Full title is the maps name. Three Kingdoms of China It is a very plain font and could use with jazzing up. That font I posted shows some sort of ink brush text. Very common in China and the orient even today. Understand about the cities and capitals. How about adding the Chinese similar to the mini maps. Just not as big. Mountains are great, and look great. But for some reason, I am not feeling impassable. Even if you doubled up on thickness at places, it would make them a lot better while adding a slight curve to them. With the junks, it was an idea.

[Dukasaur]

So graphics is next?

I would like to see the mountain range in the middle gain more life. It looks un-natural going in a perfectly straight line.

[cooldeals]

Great work Seamus!

It's sad the China is so landlocked. One of my favorite parts of the Korea map is the use of the ships to connect by water. I also enjoy the capital bonuses on Korea because they are different than most maps. That said I think it's good to not try to remake the same map and Seamus has done an excellent job of making a map that is fun and a little different than most maps out there. I'm looking forward to playing on it. It looks like many of my concerns on the map have already been addressed like placing a neutral on each of the +1 bonus areas to keep them from giving too much of an early advantage.