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[Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby iAmCaffeine on Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:11 am

eddie2 wrote:Because it would balance the map out. Making it easier to go for a different bonus. Just now if you have canada and a bonus you can just sit and break opponents bonuses. And opponant has no way of building to get another one.


I'm going to assume you haven't read the last page. The best solution for Canada is removing the auto-deploy and just having the bombardment feature.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby eddie2 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:05 am

Yes i did read it. But do not believe that is the best option. The bombard is 2 powerful for the map. If you have canada obviously you have taken a qualifier group. Giving you a 6 deploy. You can then make sure your opponant is stuck on a 4 deploy while increasing your qualifier bonuses. Also because you can only get to canada from 3 qualifier groups if you get taken out game over. Look at most maps like arms race the silo is the game winner so has a big amount of neutral troups and a reset. Canada on this map is just as powerful. So it needs to be given some form of difficulty in taking it. Not 7 neutrals where it could be taken first round if dice are good.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:09 am

Which leads to a logical suggestion of removing bonuses or a freeze removing troops making it easier to contest.

Not more bonuses elsewhere! There should be an advantage for being first to Canada.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby eddie2 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:12 am

Or even change the bombard from the qualifiers to the group stage.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:21 am

eddie2 wrote:Or even change the bombard from the qualifiers to the group stage.


You can stack in the nations that didnt qualify, so it doesnt make a difference where it bombards in reality.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby iAmCaffeine on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:39 am

eddie2 wrote:Yes i did read it. But do not believe that is the best option. The bombard is 2 powerful for the map. If you have canada obviously you have taken a qualifier group. Giving you a 6 deploy. You can then make sure your opponant is stuck on a 4 deploy while increasing your qualifier bonuses. Also because you can only get to canada from 3 qualifier groups if you get taken out game over. Look at most maps like arms race the silo is the game winner so has a big amount of neutral troups and a reset. Canada on this map is just as powerful. So it needs to be given some form of difficulty in taking it. Not 7 neutrals where it could be taken first round if dice are good.


You do not necessarily hold any bonus if you have Canada.

There are plenty of areas to stack hidden from Canada, assuming you're playing in fog, and a number of ways to access it too. There are more than just the qualifier groups.

Canada is not just as powerful as the Warhead in Arms Race because it does not win the game. It's a key region, it's not the objective, which does have high value neutrals. Removing the auto-deploy and having only the bombard feature makes it an important region, but not overpowed as it is now.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby eddie2 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:42 am

Yes you can stack a 4 deploy on a non qualifying team where your opponant has a 6 8 or 10 deploy that you cannot increase your deploy. Think

opening round

from drop you have 4 regions in europe a. First shot deploy 4 troups on netherlands, hit the 2 other regions once knocking them down to 1 troup you then use 2 of your 3 piles to take them. Fort the final 2 onto netherlands. Giving you 9. Opponants turn they end up 1 region short of taking a bonus qualifier.

Round 2.
Deploy 6 troups on netherlands take netherlands group (3 troups) then canada (4) average would give you 10 troups left. Fort another groups troups in another qualifierto give you a 5 stack. Opponant then takes his qualifier.

Round 3
Deploy 3 on canada and 3 on your 5 stack. Work to take that qualifier then bombard his bonus.opponant 4 deploy take back bonus and stack out of sight.

Round 4
3 on canada 3 on other group your taking. Take the group and bombard the bonus.this gives you between 10 and 16 troups on canada. Plus 8 deploy next round. Game over

This is how it goes. Canada is 2 powerful a region and 2 easy to take from the begining.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby iAmCaffeine on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:58 am

Sigh, just because a player has Canada does not mean they're deploy 6+. I recently won a game because they had Canada deploying 4 whilst I was deploying 6 and managed to fight to take Canada. Stop assuming I cannot count, you just make yourself look dumb which I assume is not the desired effect.

If there is an issue, how on earth is multiplying it a solution? By your reasoning it wouldn't matter if there five more regions equivalent to Canada.

The only thing we agree on is that Canada is too powerful, but you want to add a flurry of powerful regions all over the map rather than just reduce its power. Which do you think is more logical?
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby eddie2 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:23 am

Mate i can agree what i said might not be the correct way of doing it. But only removing the auto deploy,is not going to fix it. And honestly if someone had canada and was not breaking your bonus, do you not think this is someone not knowing what they are doing. :D .
We both agree canada is a powerful region after your first response (read my response properly) i then said a higher troup count on canada and possibly the reset (which yes it has been talked about before and rejected.) but could be something to look at again.

This is a discussion thread so we can talk about it. Its not a iamcaffine thread where if someone says something you dont like you try and belittle them..

So lets talk about it and if you raise a valid point i will not carry on with what i am saying and try think of something else. But only taking auto deploy away is not enough in my opinion.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:57 am

eddie2 wrote:Yes you can stack a 4 deploy on a non qualifying team where your opponant has a 6 8 or 10 deploy that you cannot increase your deploy. Think

opening round

from drop you have 4 regions in europe a. First shot deploy 4 troups on netherlands, hit the 2 other regions once knocking them down to 1 troup you then use 2 of your 3 piles to take them. Fort the final 2 onto netherlands. Giving you 9. Opponents turn they take a Group A qualifier (if not held) and Group A tert, using the time you wasted taking a group bonus.

Round 2.
Deploy 6 troups on netherlands take netherlands group (3 troups) then canada (4) average would give you 10 troups left. Fort another groups troups in another qualifierto give you a 5 stack. Opponant then deploys on his group A and is in a position to contest Canada.

Round 3
Deploy 3 on canada and 3 on your 5 stack. Work to take that qualifier then bombard his bonus.opponant 4 deploy take back bonus and stack out of sight.

Round 4
3 on canada 3 on other group your taking. Take the group and bombard the bonus.this gives you between 10 and 16 troups on canada. Plus 8 deploy next round. Game over


This is how it goes. Canada is 2 powerful a region and 2 easy to take from the begining.


Its not our fault your imaginary opponent is rubbish.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby eddie2 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:27 am

That might work round 1 but remember you will have a 15 stack coming at you. So you will be taken out of group a qualifier and lose so will just delay what i said by 1 round.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:42 am

eddie2 wrote:That might work round 1 but remember you will have a 15 stack coming at you. So you will be taken out of group a qualifier and lose so will just delay what i said by 1 round.


Your logic relies on not losing any troops whilst taking the group, which is extremely favorable. If that happens then well done you win the game, no different to any other 2 player game on here.

Netherlands will be nearer 4 than 9 after your first turn. And then the canada stack will be nearer 3 than 10 after your second turn.

In 2 turns the player who goes first has potentially gained 2 army deploys which is not a gamebreaker by any stretch.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby eddie2 on Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:40 am

My first round was losing 1 or 2 troups. 2Nd round was losing 5 troups. I have several times hit regions with a stack of 7 or 8 via a 3single hit to 1 then used 3 stacks to take it. Maybe a simple increase to 7 neutrals on canada would even it out a little bit. A bit like the luggers on galopes
Last edited by eddie2 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby MudPuppy on Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:08 pm

I'm told Canadians love their beer... How 'bout a -1 troop per turn degradation due to excessive celebrations? :P

I think eliminating the +2 auto-deploy is probably good enough. It will still leave Canada as a pretty powerful region but they are the host nation after all... perhaps they should be worth a bit more than everyone else.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby sempaispellcheck on Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:10 am

New XML posted, removing autodeploy.
Sorry it took me so long, guys.

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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby iancanton on Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:06 pm

iancanton wrote:to try to make the objective viable in more fog games as an alternative to grabbing canada first at all costs, perhaps another solution is to reduce the starting neutrals for the 2 finalists and 4 semis to n7 each and for 3rd place to n3. the objective will then require the killing of only 39 neutrals, which is still a lot, but more feasible as a surprise fog tactic than having to kill the current 53 neutrals.

have u decided to keep the neutrals as they are, with the finalists at n13 and the semis at n9? if so, then i again suggest amending the xml, if only to reduce the 3rd place neutrals from n11 to n3 to provide a way for opposite semis to attack each other, since there's currently no reason for anyone to attack the n11 on 3rd place.

this needs no additional change to the map images and will cause no further delay, since we are still awaiting the final small and large images from mrbenn which say "canada can bombard" instead of "canada gains +2 autodeploy and can bombard".

for 37 completed 1v1 games with standard settings up to Game 15869081, excluding 2 deadbeated games, statistics are below.

the first player won 19 games (51%) and the second player 18 games (49%), so there is no evidence for first-turn bias.
the higher-ranked player won 29 (78%) and the lower-ranked player won 8 (22%), so there is evidence that this map rewards skill.
the first bonus to pay out was a qualifier group 34 times (92%) and canada 2 times (5%), while there was 1 time (3%) when no bonus paid out.
the canada bonus paid out first to the winner in 9 games (24%), first to the loser in 4 games (11%) and did not pay out in 24 games (65%).
11 games (30%) paid at least 1 stage 2 or higher bonus.
2 games (5%) paid at least 1 quarter-final bonus.
in all 37 games, no-one (0%) received a semi-final bonus or held the objective, which suggests that the n13 neutrals are too high in sunny games.

for 20 completed 1v1 manual, freestyle, nuclear spoils, unlimited forts, fog trench games from Game 15799380 to Game 15799508, excluding 3 deadbeated games, statistics are below.

the first player won 13 games (65%) and the second player 7 games (35%), so there is some evidence for first-turn bias.
the higher-ranked player won 14 (70%) and the lower-ranked player won 6 (30%), so there is some evidence that this map rewards skill.
the first bonus to pay out was a qualifier group 19 times (95%) and canada 1 time (5%, in this case to the loser).
the canada bonus paid out first to the winner in 12 games (60%), first to the loser in 3 games (15%) and did not pay out in 5 games (25%).
13 games (65%) paid at least 1 stage 2 or higher bonus.
9 games (45%) paid at least 1 quarter-final bonus.
5 games (25%) paid at least 1 semi-final bonus.
4 games (20%) were won by objective, holding both finalists.

ian. :)
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:22 am

Those stats look good Ian.

Which version of Canada is that with?
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby iAmCaffeine on Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:32 am

WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:Those stats look good Ian.

Which version of Canada is that with?


The original. The change was only made five days ago..
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby eddie2 on Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:54 am

Those stats do look good. Can i ask if there are stats for the person who takes canada first. Going on to win the game. (i do agree that this stat might have 2 wait due to the plus 2 being removed.) this will show if further changes are needed for canada. Also if it shows that it does need more and it is players who get first turn, it might solve the first turn bias thing.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:03 am

iancanton wrote:
for 37 completed 1v1 games with standard settings up to Game 15869081, excluding 2 deadbeated games, statistics are below.

the canada bonus paid out first to the winner in 9 games (24%), first to the loser in 4 games (11%) and did not pay out in 24 games (65%).

for 20 completed 1v1 manual, freestyle, nuclear spoils, unlimited forts, fog trench games from Game 15799380 to Game 15799508, excluding 3 deadbeated games, statistics are below.

the canada bonus paid out first to the winner in 12 games (60%), first to the loser in 3 games (15%) and did not pay out in 5 games (25%).

ian. :)
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby eddie2 on Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:14 am

WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:
iancanton wrote:
for 37 completed 1v1 games with standard settings up to Game 15869081, excluding 2 deadbeated games, statistics are below.

the canada bonus paid out first to the winner in 9 games (24%), first to the loser in 4 games (11%) and did not pay out in 24 games (65%).

for 20 completed 1v1 manual, freestyle, nuclear spoils, unlimited forts, fog trench games from Game 15799380 to Game 15799508, excluding 3 deadbeated games, statistics are below.

the canada bonus paid out first to the winner in 12 games (60%), first to the loser in 3 games (15%) and did not pay out in 5 games (25%).

ian. :)

Lol wing i read that. Plz remember instead of trying to make me look stupid read what i said and what ian said. Just now there is 161 games finished in 1 v 1 the total stats for this would be good to see. On players who got canada first. (but then in a couple of weeks see what the removal of auto deploy has done to make a difference)
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:20 am

Well be clear with the question you are asking! I answered the question you asked.

I like the idea of comparing Canada stats for ALL games before and after the change.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby eddie2 on Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:01 pm

WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:Well be clear with the question you are asking! I answered the question you asked.

I like the idea of comparing Canada stats for ALL games before and after the change.

Wing you didnt show what i asked. I asked for the games (there is 161 of them,) then examples you highlighed is for 57 games. If them games were for the first 57 finished it would not be a accurate profile, especially the freestyle if they were 1 min speed by someone who started to know the map via someone who never played it. Because they would not have time to read up on it. You see i can see canada being the perfect region for farmers.
But i like you agree on reviewing if canada still to strong.
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby Mande1992 on Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:17 am

I have a question on the attack route, I don't believe I was supposed to be able to attack from Group D - SWE up to Qualifier FRA in Europe B ? This was in Game 15953188.

2015-09-10 07:53:21 - Mande1992 assaulted [Qualifier] FRA - France from [Group] SWE - Sweden and conquered it from neutral player
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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

Postby sempaispellcheck on Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:19 am

Mande1992 wrote:I have a question on the attack route, I don't believe I was supposed to be able to attack from Group D - SWE up to Qualifier FRA in Europe B ? This was in Game 15953188.

2015-09-10 07:53:21 - Mande1992 assaulted [Qualifier] FRA - France from [Group] SWE - Sweden and conquered it from neutral player

There's nothing wrong there - a team in the Group Stage can attack all teams in its Qualifying Group.

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