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Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:48 am
by iAmCaffeine
WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Having played doubles and poly games of all sizes, I'm worried Canada is too powerful. The bombardment ability coupled with an auto-deploy make it the most important region on the map by a mile.


If I am reading it right, once you have made it to the Group stage there is minimal benefit in holding qualifier territories due to no region bonus. Does this affect how powerful you perceive the bombard ability to be?


Not really, because in the games I have played/I'm playing, there has never been a reason to take anything beyond the group stages. I have done so only once, and that was through the QFs to access a different group.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:51 am
by WingCmdr Ginkapo
hmmmm Is the map working as planned if it doesnt go beyond the group stages? Isnt it supposed to at least resemble a push towards the finals?

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:03 am
by sempaispellcheck
iAmCaffeine wrote:Having played doubles and poly games of all sizes, I'm worried Canada is too powerful. The bombardment ability coupled with an auto-deploy make it the most important region on the map by a mile.

Having played a lot of 1v1, I am, too.
We were worried that it would get ignored, since it cannot be attacked by any qualifying team, but I guess we overcompensated.
Do you have any suggestions for fixing that?

sempai

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:05 am
by iAmCaffeine
WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:hmmmm Is the map working as planned if it doesnt go beyond the group stages? Isnt it supposed to at least resemble a push towards the finals?


Well, as has already been mentioned in this thread, that is more likely to happen in multiplayer and/or trench games. My only examples are a single doubles game and polymorphic games of all sizes.

sempaispellcheck wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Having played doubles and poly games of all sizes, I'm worried Canada is too powerful. The bombardment ability coupled with an auto-deploy make it the most important region on the map by a mile.

Having played a lot of 1v1, I am, too.
We were worried that it would get ignored, since it cannot be attacked by any qualifying team, but I guess we overcompensated.
Do you have any suggestions for fixing that?

sempai


I'd remove the auto-deploy, it makes no sense to have a double bonus feature for the single region; bombardment is enough.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:05 am
by sempaispellcheck
WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:hmmmm Is the map working as planned if it doesnt go beyond the group stages? Isnt it supposed to at least resemble a push towards the finals?

The other World Cup maps work the same way, as do most maps with objectives (ever hold the thrones on Austro-Hungarian Empire?). This is a Risk-based game - the main idea is to eliminate your opponents.

sempai

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:07 am
by sempaispellcheck
iAmCaffeine wrote:
sempaispellcheck wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Having played doubles and poly games of all sizes, I'm worried Canada is too powerful. The bombardment ability coupled with an auto-deploy make it the most important region on the map by a mile.

Having played a lot of 1v1, I am, too.
We were worried that it would get ignored, since it cannot be attacked by any qualifying team, but I guess we overcompensated.
Do you have any suggestions for fixing that?

sempai


I'd remove the auto-deploy, it makes no sense to have a double bonus feature for the single region; bombardment is enough.

All right. Let me make sure MrB's OK with that - he'll have to revise the image, I think.

sempai

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:20 am
by WingCmdr Ginkapo
Ok, so I am playing a game now to get a greater understanding of the game mechanics.

My early observation is that if by luck of the drop you can remove your opponent from a qualifier group it is extremely easy to take the +2 bonus, and exceedingly tricky to then break that bonus. This is where Canada comes in as its the easy method to break the +2 bonuses.

The problem as I see it, is that the bonuses for going further in the competition are all quite small. QF = +1, SF = +2, 2G +3rdP = +1 etc. With such small bonuses on offer there is little incentive to venture out of the groups rather than use Canada to drive eliminate your opponent straight away. As with all games its tactically advantageous not to attack neutral terts without proportionate gain, and in this case I do not see where the gain would come from.

I have never played the 2011 map, but notice that the bonuses are similar. I'd suggest that the bonuses for progression were at least doubled, such that the new tactics of camping on Canada are not overly dominant.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:34 am
by iAmCaffeine
I think you should have more experience before forming such an opinion. The way the bonuses work is fine, you just need to know how to play the map.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:38 am
by iAmCaffeine
Shouldn't THA in the Asia Qualifier have a B rather than an X?

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:11 am
by sempaispellcheck
Wing - Canada can't bomb all the qualifying territories, and can also be accessed from three different groups.

iAmCaffeine wrote:Shouldn't THA in the Asia Qualifier have a B rather than an X?
MrB's already made that change.

sempai

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:22 pm
by MrBenn
sempaispellcheck wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:
sempaispellcheck wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Having played doubles and poly games of all sizes, I'm worried Canada is too powerful. The bombardment ability coupled with an auto-deploy make it the most important region on the map by a mile.

Having played a lot of 1v1, I am, too.
We were worried that it would get ignored, since it cannot be attacked by any qualifying team, but I guess we overcompensated.
Do you have any suggestions for fixing that?

sempai


I'd remove the auto-deploy, it makes no sense to have a double bonus feature for the single region; bombardment is enough.

All right. Let me make sure MrB's OK with that - he'll have to revise the image, I think.

sempai

As long as there is consensus I'm happy to remove the autodeploy bonus. Anybody else have an opinion?

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:43 pm
by JamesKer1
I agree with removal. It's a bit too much. Opponent had it in a 1v1 and he is catching up to me now after I had an undeniable lead.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:40 am
by WingCmdr Ginkapo
JamesKer1 wrote:I agree with removal. It's a bit too much. Opponent had it in a 1v1 and he is catching up to me now after I had an undeniable lead.


And in hindsight you should have gone straight for it yourself? Its a machine gun that has no blind spot!

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:56 am
by iAmCaffeine
WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:
JamesKer1 wrote:I agree with removal. It's a bit too much. Opponent had it in a 1v1 and he is catching up to me now after I had an undeniable lead.


And in hindsight you should have gone straight for it yourself? Its a machine gun that has no blind spot!


His reasoning is poor but it should still be removed.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:00 am
by JamesKer1
WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:
JamesKer1 wrote:I agree with removal. It's a bit too much. Opponent had it in a 1v1 and he is catching up to me now after I had an undeniable lead.


And in hindsight you should have gone straight for it yourself? Its a machine gun that has no blind spot!


Hindsight is 20-20. First game on the map, still trying to figure out the strategy.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:04 am
by WingCmdr Ginkapo
My point is that there is only 1 strategy that resolves itself within 3 rounds.

A single bombard that can attack all* territories within 2 in all vulnerable directions is extremely overpowered on this map.

*Except the third place quarter finals which are too heavily fortified to impact on early game.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:09 am
by WingCmdr Ginkapo
I actually quite like the map.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:57 am
by sempaispellcheck
Would making Canada a killer neutral be going too far in the other direction?

BTW, Wing, as I've said before, Canada only bombards 23 of the 36 qualifying spots - it doesn't bombard the countries that aren't also represented in the group stage.

sempai

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:55 pm
by MudPuppy
MrBenn wrote:As long as there is consensus I'm happy to remove the autodeploy bonus. Anybody else have an opinion?

I agree with its removal.

sempaispellcheck wrote:Would making Canada a killer neutral be going too far in the other direction?

Nice thought but yeah, I think that would be a bit too far (it would mess up the group bonus).

Great map! I like how it plays.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:58 pm
by iancanton
bear in mind that all of the games in sempai's tournament are fog. this is significant because, like the spies in arms race, canada is particularly valuable in fog games as a means of seeing the opponent's regions as well as of bombarding them.

of the 30 completed 1v1 games with standard sunny settings, the canada bonus was awarded in 10 games (33%) and it was the first bonus to be awarded in only 2 games (7%), 1 to the winner and 1 to the loser. if we remove the canada auto-deploy bonus, then is there a danger that canada will be ignored in sunny games by all except those who are new to the map?

MudPuppy wrote:
sempaispellcheck wrote:Would making Canada a killer neutral be going too far in the other direction?

Nice thought but yeah, I think that would be a bit too far (it would mess up the group bonus)

i agree that making canada a killer neutral is going too far.

to try to make the objective viable in more fog games as an alternative to grabbing canada first at all costs, perhaps another solution is to reduce the starting neutrals for the 2 finalists and 4 semis to n7 each and for 3rd place to n3. the objective will then require the killing of only 39 neutrals, which is still a lot, but more feasible as a surprise fog tactic than having to kill the current 53 neutrals.

WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:I'd suggest that the bonuses for progression were at least doubled, such that the new tactics of camping on Canada are not overly dominant.

if decreasing the neutrals doesn't work, then i'm not averse to either removing the canada auto-deploy or doubling all bonuses for reaching stage 2 or later rounds.

ian. :)

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:48 pm
by waauw
What if you make canada start out with 6-7 neutrals rather than 4, making it less susceptible to a quick rush and grab. With more neutrals there, multiple people might just end up in the same group there waiting for the right moment to snatch it.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:48 pm
by iancanton
the map is played completely differently depending on whether it's a fog game. with n6 neutrals, canada will probably work reasonably well in fog games but, in sunny games, be ignored completely instead of only two-thirds of the time.

sempaispellcheck wrote:
iAmCaffeine wrote:Shouldn't THA in the Asia Qualifier have a B rather than an X?
MrB's already made that change.

bW has released the new small and large images now.

ian. :)

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:58 am
by eddie2
Can it not be made that canada can be attacked from all regional group leaders. The problem i see is that if someone grabs canada fast its game over. Due to the fact they have the 6 deploy and can break your group bonus. Or could you add a auto deploy of 2 to the top line of all group stages.

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:33 am
by iAmCaffeine
eddie2 wrote:Can it not be made that canada can be attacked from all regional group leaders. The problem i see is that if someone grabs canada fast its game over. Due to the fact they have the 6 deploy and can break your group bonus. Or could you add a auto deploy of 2 to the top line of all group stages.


If something is breaking the map why would you add ten more of it?

Re: [Limited Edition] 2015 Women's World Cup Map

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:22 am
by eddie2
Because it would balance the map out. Making it easier to go for a different bonus. Just now if you have canada and a bonus you can just sit and break opponents bonuses. And opponant has no way of building to get another one.