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MapStarter: Pi-School XML v27 New XML

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v20

Postby HitRed on Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:04 pm

iancanton wrote:
Captn B wrote:Perhaps if the OFF button were a Killer 10, it would make it less daunting?

i disagree with reducing the number of neutral troops on the OFF button, as the OFF button is already the commonest way of winning. in fact, in most games, the display plays very little part, while the keypad tends to be used only as a method to gain spoils while building up enough troops to go through the OFF button. in this regard, it plays a lot like baseball.

have u considered removing the auto-deploy bonuses for the terms and increasing the display bonuses to +5, to encourage players to be more adventurous?

ian. :)


The goal is to capture Pi. The slogan is, Can You Capture Pi?

To achieve this we can remove the OFF button.

Having only one victory condition the players will fight for the display.


Art changes
Delete the OFF button.
Remove 2 lines of text relating to OFF button.
Remove 1 line of text relating to terms bonus.

With the changes above I think we should move to +4 in the display.

I am confident this is a good move. Let me know if your OK with this.

HitRed

P.s. I ran the numbers for attacking from Green #3 to display, Green #5 to display and plus symbol to display OVER 3 ROUNDS and the clear advantage is the +1 bonuses. I suggest moving those from neutral 2 to neutral 3. In my games the +1 bonuses were the only active green buttons.
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v20

Postby Captn B on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:32 am

HitRed wrote:
iancanton wrote:
Captn B wrote:Perhaps if the OFF button were a Killer 10, it would make it less daunting?

i disagree with reducing the number of neutral troops on the OFF button, as the OFF button is already the commonest way of winning. in fact, in most games, the display plays very little part, while the keypad tends to be used only as a method to gain spoils while building up enough troops to go through the OFF button. in this regard, it plays a lot like baseball.

have u considered removing the auto-deploy bonuses for the terms and increasing the display bonuses to +5, to encourage players to be more adventurous?

ian. :)


The goal is to capture Pi. The slogan is, Can You Capture Pi?

To achieve this we can remove the OFF button.

Having only one victory condition the players will fight for the display.

Art changes
Delete the OFF button.
Remove 2 lines of text relating to OFF button.
Remove 1 line of text relating to terms bonus.

With the changes above I think we should move to +4 in the display.

I am confident this is a good move. Let me know if your OK with this.

HitRed

P.s. I ran the numbers for attacking from Green #3 to display, Green #5 to display and plus symbol to display OVER 3 ROUNDS and the clear advantage is the +1 bonuses. I suggest moving those from neutral 2 to neutral 3. In my games the +1 bonuses were the only active green buttons.


Hmm. Not sure I agree with raising the display bonus values, no, not at all. And I'm sure that I don't understand the ""PS" that was written. haha

So, in Europe 1914, there are three ways to win: 2 different objectives and eliminating the enemy. Now if you take away the Off button, then that removes the EASIEST method to win. In Eu 1914, I don't always go for the same strategy to win, but I go with the easiest, based on the drop, dice, partners,... So one game I may go for Entente Powers, another the Central Powers, and on still others, I'd go for the kills. The strategy depends upon the ease.

If you want people to capture the display (Pi), then perhaps make it a little easier to tackle. If an opponent takes a display digit, and then gets a +4 or +5 to help him hold onto it, people seek an easier path toward victory, so they go the Off button. Making the bonuses higher in the display items only makes it harder to finish the game--ESPECIALLY if you remove the Off button. I mean, look at it: one person has to capture and hold 10 separate digits to win. Why NOT go the easier route of the OFf button to kill 4 terts (in doubs)?

What I'm attempting to say is that the Objective is too difficult for many to want to play it. Perhaps reduce the number of active digits in the display to like 5 or 6? So you'd have 3.141 or 3.1415. Wikipedia only lists it to 3.14159.

So with 10 separate terts to hang onto, and so many ways to attack each one, we NEED an easier route to the finish line. Otherwise, players may become disheartened and choose never to play it again. (I'm almost already at that point. :lol: ). Then if you make the display items even HARDER to overcome, once they've been taken, then you could end up with another stalemate of both sides having 100s of troops on each display item, and no hope to ever overcome them, because their values are too high and the autodeploy, RB, and any other bonuses will never be able to catch up with the autobonus to the display items.

A bleak prospect.

Ah. And what allowed us to finish the games that we did, was the dice effect. One team has bad dice and the other good, so strategy doesn't have anything to do with winning it. Otherwise, we'd probably STILL be in those games. lol
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v20

Postby HitRed on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:00 am

The terms potions are equal (balanced).
The display positions are equal (balanced).
The white buttons are what the names imply so they are what they are.

The Green area is an issue.
Currently 1's and 5's are totally avoided. Most of the other numbers that direct assault (3,4,6 among others) into the display are avoided too. Players only go for the +1 bonuses (+-X/0,00,7,8). Changing the green +1 bonuses to start neutral 3 would balance out this area. (That's what the P.s. was all about) :)

Most games quickly turn to the OFF button. Most of green buttons, white buttons and yellow button are unused or underused. The game isn't called OFF :lol: it's Pi-School with a goal of Capture Pi. If most players are going for OFF the focus is wrong and needs to be redirected. Removing OFF would do this.

I've been playing bot games pretending the OFF button doesn't exist. They last for 14-16 rounds. That doesn't seem like a long game to me. Clearly playing without the OFF is more fun, creative and makes the players explore their options.
______

I would agree that great dice early is a huge advantage. This is an issue in Promontory and Summit Pearl Harbor among others.
______

The most rare resource in all the Map Foundry is GRAPHICS. Even the smallest of changes could take hours. Complex changes would take much more and remember there are actually 2 maps for each game. Changing the display to 6 numbers (which I considered) is just too much to ask. More importantly it wouldn't make the direct assaults more used or valuable.
______

By the time someone gets 3 display bonuses the ball is rolling in their favor. Even King of the Hills can stalemate for a time. All games end at some point.

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v20

Postby Captn B on Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:13 am

Great ideas and explanations.

I'll pm you with something else, where we play some games together.
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v20

Postby iancanton on Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:23 pm

Captn B wrote:
HitRed wrote:The goal is to capture Pi. The slogan is, Can You Capture Pi?

To achieve this we can remove the OFF button.

Having only one victory condition the players will fight for the display.

Art changes
Delete the OFF button.
Remove 2 lines of text relating to OFF button.
Remove 1 line of text relating to terms bonus.

With the changes above I think we should move to +4 in the display.

I am confident this is a good move. Let me know if your OK with this.

HitRed

P.s. I ran the numbers for attacking from Green #3 to display, Green #5 to display and plus symbol to display OVER 3 ROUNDS and the clear advantage is the +1 bonuses. I suggest moving those from neutral 2 to neutral 3. In my games the +1 bonuses were the only active green buttons.

If you want people to capture the display (Pi), then perhaps make it a little easier to tackle.

most of the changes sound good although, in line with making the display easier to capture, perhaps decreasing the n3s to n2s and the n4s to n3s is the way to go, instead of increasing the n2s to n3s.

HitRed wrote:The most rare resource in all the Map Foundry is GRAPHICS. Even the smallest of changes could take hours. Complex changes would take much more and remember there are actually 2 maps for each game.

rather than erase the OFF button, i suggest increasing the killer neutral to k50 or even to k99, which retains a way to break a stalemate, albeit one that is hard to activate. this can be done without changing the graphics.

ian. :)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v20

Postby HitRed on Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:37 pm

iancanton wrote:most of the changes sound good although, in line with making the display easier to capture, perhaps decreasing the n3s to n2s and the n4s to n3s is the way to go, instead of increasing the n2s to n3s.

rather than erase the OFF button, i suggest increasing the killer neutral to k50 or even to k99, which retains a way to break a stalemate, albeit one that is hard to activate. this can be done without changing the graphics.

ian. :)


Great ideas! :D

White buttons will remain neutral 1
Yellow buttons will remain neutral 2
Green +1 bonuses will remain neutral 2

Green single direct attacks into the display (0,00,.,2,3,4,6,9) will change to neutral 2
Green double direct attacks into the display (1,5) will change to neutral 3

Red button will change to neutral 50

Display bonuses will change to +4

Terms will no longer have a bonus.

Greens buttons are more balanced allowing more avenues of attack. Display territories are worth more so will be attacked more. Red button remains so stalemates will have a way of ending. Graphics will only be making text edits. XML will only be making neutral and bonus edits.

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MapStarter: Pi-School XML v21 AND Large & Small Map v.15

Postby HitRed on Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:38 pm

All the map and text edits have been made. Please, upload the new XML and both large and small maps. :D

This is Pi-School :D

Code: Select all
http://indigo-post.com/cc/misc/pi/Pi-School_v21.xml

Pi.V1.21 XML

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Pi.V1.15 art Large Map

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Pi.V1.15 art Small Map
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v21 AND Large & Small Map v.15

Postby iancanton on Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:29 pm

version 21 of pi-school loaded to beta site successfully on date 2018-12-21 at time 18:20 CCT!

for ease of reference, i've called the images v21 as well as the xml.

i've set my options to "notify me when a reply is posted" in this thread.

ian. :)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v21 AND LARGE & SMALL v.15

Postby HitRed on Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:45 am

This is my initial reaction to playing v.21.

Reducing the starting neutral green buttons 1,5 achieved the goal :D
Reducing the starting neutral green buttons 0,00,7,8 achieved the goal :D
Changing the OFF button to 50 achieved the goal. :D

The bad part...
Removing the +1 bonuses from the terms killed the fun of the game. Quickly (by round 4) the terms are devoid of troops. Previously, the terms were like aircraft carriers launching strikes into the green area and beyond. Fun, fun, fun! Now it's hard to even take a green territory if you loosing after turn 5. :(

Upping the display to +4 from +3 took the game length down from 14-16 round to 9-10 rounds. +4 means the game are decided by turn 3-5. :(

-----

Terms must be returned to +1. The Display would return to +3.


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Last edited by HitRed on Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v21 AND LARGE & SMALL v.15

Postby iancanton on Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:48 pm

we certainly don't want to lose the fun factor, so it looks as if we'll need this change. i haven't played v21 yet, so wonder whether anyone else has the same opinion about the terms.

ian. :)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v21 AND LARGE & SMALL v.15

Postby HitRed on Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:57 pm

I'm going to make two bonus adjustments on call it solid till long term feedback happens.

The terms will be +1. So, Circumference with 1 troop and +1 auto-deploy and + 3 for minimum reinforcements = 5 attacking 2 neutral troops will LIKELY to get a card. This will give all players that get behind a reasonable chance to get 'rainbow' +10 spoils.

Terms will now be auto-deploy +1
Display territories will each have +3 bonus.

The terms will be +1 auto-deploy bonus.
The display territories will go from +4 each to +3. A two player game will still be around 13-15 rounds. Very reasonable.


I realize moving bonuses up or down could go on forever.

When taking account fun and giving all players a chance this is the best compromise.

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Last edited by HitRed on Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v21 AND LARGE & SMALL v.15

Postby iancanton on Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:42 pm

three changes, am i right, these being terms start with 1 troop instead of 3, terms have +1 auto-deploy bonus instead of none and display territories have +3 bonus instead of +4? does it make any more sense to call them display digits in the legend rather than display territories?

ian. :)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v21 AND LARGE & SMALL v.15

Postby HitRed on Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:54 pm

iancanton wrote:three changes, am i right, these being terms start with 1 troop instead of 3, terms have +1 auto-deploy bonus instead of none and display territories have +3 bonus instead of +4? does it make any more sense to call them display digits in the legend rather than display territories?

ian. :)


Sorry for the confusion. My example was from later in the game not the beginning turn.

Terms will now be auto-deploy +1
Display territories will each have +3 bonus.


"does it make any more sense to call them display digits in the legend rather than display territories?"

The "." may not be seen as a digit to some players. They might avoid it. I think territories is more clear.

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v22 AND LARGE & SMALL MAPS

Postby HitRed on Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:26 pm

These are the XML and large and small maps. Please upload. This should be solid for long term testing.

HitREd

Code: Select all
http://indigo-post.com/cc/misc/pi/Pi-School_v22.xml

Pi.V1.22 XML

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Pi.V1.22 art Large Map

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Pi.V1.22 art Small Map
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v21 AND LARGE & SMALL v.15

Postby Fuchsia tude on Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:31 pm

HitRed wrote:
iancanton wrote:three changes, am i right, these being terms start with 1 troop instead of 3, terms have +1 auto-deploy bonus instead of none and display territories have +3 bonus instead of +4? does it make any more sense to call them display digits in the legend rather than display territories?

ian. :)


Sorry for the confusion. My example was from later in the game not the beginning turn.

Terms will now be auto-deploy +1
Display territories will each have +3 bonus.


"does it make any more sense to call them display digits in the legend rather than display territories?"

The "." may not be seen as a digit to some players. They might avoid it. I think territories is more clear.

HitRed
"Display characters", maybe? Or you could just say "digits and the decimal point".

The key seems kind of confusing. "ONE-WAY DEAD END ATTACKS INTO DISPLAY" might be clearer if it ended with a colon, but it might be better to just rewrite it entirely. As someone mentioned last year, it seems like gibberish until you're very familiar with the gameplay. There's got to be an immediately obvious way to phrase it. Maybe just "ONE-WAY ATTACKS:" ? "DEAD END" is already implied by the "ONE-WAY". Then "Green -> corresponding display character(s)".

I assume the green "." attacks the "." in pi? Because as is, it's not listed as attacking anything in the display. "Green -> corresponding number(s)" should definitely say "character(s)", then, in that case.

Also the names of the doubled numbers are inconsistent: is it 1A/1B/5A/5B, or A1/B1/A5/B5? Because you use both in the key.
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v22 AND LARGE & SMALL MAPS

Postby HitRed on Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:52 pm

Good work Fuchsia tude! Correct B5 should read 5B =D>

Other insights from Fuchsia tude #1 and #3

Ian,

1) Should "number(s)" and "territory" both change to "characters"? As you and Fuchsia tude pointed out the "." isn't a number.
Green -> corresponding DISPLAY characters
Each DISPLAY character +3
I agree with this.

2) Should buttons be changed to keys? Calculators have keys.
Either way is fine. I agree key is more accurate.

3) Should "one-way" be deleted? It appears 3 times. Do players reading "Terms -> Green" understand they can't FORT back? If it is redundant we can remove it.

I'm OK with removing two of them.

Terms one-way -> Green
Greens -> each other (this line is between the two so I showed it)
Greens also one-way -> Yellow, Red, White (I think this one is important to keep.)

ONE-WAY DEAD END ATTACKS INTO DISPLAY

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v22 AND LARGE & SMALL MAPS

Postby iancanton on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:28 pm

characters and keys are fine.

greens <-> greens night be better than greens -> each other, if the -> becomes an implied one-way attack.

dead-end seems to need a hyphen, when contrasted against one-way.

ian. :)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v22 AND LARGE & SMALL MAPS

Postby HitRed on Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:17 pm

Captn B it has made it clear to me player 1 might, though unlikely, loose all terms and have no green buttons and could only deploy into the DISPLAY. This by itself isn't an issue, but in the unlikely event that player 1 has 9 DISPLAY characters he would receive 21 troops (9X2)+3 every turn. Note Displays are changing to +2. The 2nd player with all green 8 +1 auto deploys, +5 for 16, and 3 reinforcements IN A NONE SPOILS GAME would likely NOT be able to win if player 1 wouldn't allow player 2 to capture some Displays.


Likely a requirement will be added. Or don't allow no spoils in the game setup options.

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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v22 AND LARGE & SMALL MAPS

Postby Captn B on Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:09 am

HitRed wrote:Captn B it has made it clear to me player 1 might, though unlikely, loose all terms and have no green buttons and could only deploy into the DISPLAY. This by itself isn't an issue, but in the unlikely event that player 1 has 9 DISPLAY characters he would receive 21 troops (9X2)+3 every turn. Note Displays are changing to +2. The 2nd player with all green 8 +1 auto deploys, +5 for 16, and 3 reinforcements IN A NONE SPOILS GAME would likely NOT be able to win if player 1 wouldn't allow player 2 to capture some Displays.

Likely a requirement will be added. Or don't allow no spoils in the game setup options.

HitRed

Except there is no Region Bonus on this map; there will be no +5 for 16 terts. In one of our games, HitRed had 13 terts and still only received +3.
Game #15867916 "2019-01-10 20:53:41 - HitRed received 3 troops for 13 regions" This information should be somewhere in the legend.

Good idea about not allowing a no-spoils game. Not sure what you may be suggesting about "a requirement being added."

One other idea: The Terms start with 3 and then get an Auto added on the first round. Then you get a +3 default deploy. So you start pretty strong. Suggest that all Terms have a beginning value of 2. Then when you start your first turn, all of your Terms get their Autos and effectively start as 3s. The strength of this is that now you have to choose where to deploy your +3 most effectively, instead of automatically being strong and not having to be judicious about where to deploy your resources. And it will be more consistent with other maps on this site, which start with 3s on terts.
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v22 AND LARGE & SMALL MAPS

Postby HitRed on Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:43 am

Captn B wrote:
HitRed wrote:Captn B it has made it clear to me player 1 might, though unlikely, loose all terms and have no green buttons and could only deploy into the DISPLAY. This by itself isn't an issue, but in the unlikely event that player 1 has 9 DISPLAY characters he would receive 21 troops (9X2)+3 every turn. Note Displays are changing to +2. The 2nd player with all green 8 +1 auto deploys, +5 for 16, and 3 reinforcements IN A NONE SPOILS GAME would likely NOT be able to win if player 1 wouldn't allow player 2 to capture some Displays.

Likely a requirement will be added. Or don't allow no spoils in the game setup options.

HitRed

Except there is no Region Bonus on this map; there will be no +5 for 16 terts. In one of our games, HitRed had 13 terts and still only received +3.
Game #15867916 "2019-01-10 20:53:41 - HitRed received 3 troops for 13 regions" This information should be somewhere in the legend.

Good idea about not allowing a no-spoils game. Not sure what you may be suggesting about "a requirement being added."

One other idea: The Terms start with 3 and then get an Auto added on the first round. Then you get a +3 default deploy. So you start pretty strong. Suggest that all Terms have a beginning value of 2. Then when you start your first turn, all of your Terms get their Autos and effectively start as 3s. The strength of this is that now you have to choose where to deploy your +3 most effectively, instead of automatically being strong and not having to be judicious about where to deploy your resources. And it will be more consistent with other maps on this site, which start with 3s on terts.


I'll correct the XML so standard 1 for 3 terts bonus. I won't show this a some maps don't to save text space. Currently Terms start with 3 and get +1. Open to the +2 on terms. A requirement is, "You must own 1 term OR green key or be eliminated". This is just a thought.
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v22 AND LARGE & SMALL MAPS

Postby iancanton on Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:19 pm

HitRed wrote:I'll correct the XML so standard 1 for 3 terts bonus. I won't show this a some maps don't to save text space. Currently Terms start with 3 and get +1. Open to the +2 on terms. A requirement is, "You must own 1 term OR green key or be eliminated". This is just a thought.

all of this sounds good. if done, then there is no need to disallow games with no spoils.

ian. :)
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v23 AND LARGE & SMALL MAPS

Postby HitRed on Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:44 pm

1) We cleaned up the text! It is now sharp and clean. Before many posters thought it was too wordy.
2) Created a 'requirement' of holding a Term or Green key to avoid being expelled. Expulsion is the correct word so we used that. This will avoid a player holding most of the display characters but the other player not earning enough bonus to be likely to win.
3) Display characters are now starting neutral 2 and having bonus +2. This will allow the display characters to be taken more easily AND allow more lead changes. Before, getting 2 or 3 display characters (which were +3 each) was game over.
4) Reinforcements corrected
Lower : 1 Upper : 44 Divisor : 3

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Code: Select all
http://indigo-post.com/cc/misc/pi/Pi-School_v23.xml

Pi.V1.23 XML

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Pi.V1.23 art Large Map

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Pi.V1.23 art Small Map

I have to admit this is looking damn professional. :D
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Re: MapStarter: Pi-School XML v23 AND LARGE & SMALL MAPS

Postby Symmetry on Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:56 am

Hitred- you asked me to look at this again, and yes, it's frankly a good looking map.

My main objection- that there are more rules than there is map does still stand though. Plus the rules are confusing, and you've chosen an odd (no pun intended) way of using the number 1 which occasionally joins with other figures.

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