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PJ's Random Map Reprise [WINNER: Ttd]

Tournaments completed in 2007.

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Round 2 Division 8, Game 3 (#731422)

Postby Aerial Attack on Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:19 am

Round 2 Division 8, Game 3 (#731422)

PhiltheGitt + 5
Aerial Attack + 2
Ahchin + 1
Goggles Paisano - 0

Totals:

PhiltheGitt - 12 (advances)
Aerial Attack - 8
Goggles Paisano - 3
Ahchin - 1 (eliminated)
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Postby pjdonald on Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:14 pm

Tight finishes all around. 3/4 of the way through Round 2, and only 3 spots secured into Round 3.
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Postby the2lord on Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:09 am

i won game 731421
lilkochy2 was 2
Miandw was 3
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Standings

Postby Aerial Attack on Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:31 pm

PJ,

Is there any way you can update the standings to add the following column (per player).

Tie (this would list Total Points - maybe Wins too)

It will make an easier reference for you - but also, so we can see who's just squeaking in (I'm trying) vs. who's bulldozing their way in.

Thanks.
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TERMINATOR

Postby dragon dor on Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:47 am

746736 phillipines
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4 monster 8)
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Round 2, Division 8, Game 4 (#746743)

Postby Aerial Attack on Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:05 pm

Round 2, Division 8, Game 4 (#746743)

Aerial Attack + 5
Ahchin + 2
PhilTheGitt + 1
Goggles Paisano + 0


Round Totals:

PhilTheGitt - 13 (advances)
Aerial Attack - 13 (advances)
Goggles Paisano - 3 (eliminated)
Ahchin - 3 (eliminated)
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Postby Easy n Dirty on Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:43 pm

All round 2, division 5 games are completed:

Easy n Dirty - 17
Danelle - 6
arch - 5
atr1989 - 4
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Postby pjdonald on Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:14 pm

Final Round 2 Standings


Code: Select all
Div   Playr   Pts   Player   Pts   Player   Pts   Player   Pts
1   *laskdj   17   *zim____   9   ^gonnawo   3   ^Metsfan   3
2   *pjdona   16   ^Kernal_   3   ^Kendoh9   4   *Forza A   9
3   *dragon   13   ^montste   8   ^Timminz   1   *Ttd___   10
4   *rabbito   8   ^larry h   8   *Myster   10   ^bertp__   6
5   ^arch___   5   *Easy n   17   *Danelle   6   ^atr1989   4
6   ^scotty3   6   *cjoe___   9   *Keella   12   ^raddude   5
7   *Miandw_   9   ^abel___   5   ^lilkoch   8   *the2lo   10
8   ^goggles   3   ^ahchin_   3   *Aerial   13   *Philth   13
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Postby Aerial Attack on Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:05 am

pjdonald wrote:Round 3 PM's out. Join by Friday 8/31.


Mysteron failed to show up for our game *sigh*
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Postby pjdonald on Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:35 pm

Aerial Attack wrote:
pjdonald wrote:Round 3 PM's out. Join by Friday 8/31.


Mysteron failed to show up for our game *sigh*


He's in. I've granted a little mercy to Mysteron and the2lord. At least in 2lord's case, a little communication goes a long way.
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Postby pjdonald on Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:13 pm

Game 2's of Round 3 are up.
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Postby pjdonald on Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:31 am

Game 3's in Round 3 are up.
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Postby the2lord on Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:41 pm

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Postby pjdonald on Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:28 am

Round 3 looks to be headed for some tight finishes! To be expected now that only the cream of the crop remains. Standings are updated as of Monday morning.
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Postby the2lord on Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:11 pm

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Postby Easy n Dirty on Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:57 pm

Division 1 is done:

Easy n Dirty - 12
Forza - 11
Aerial Attack - 5
Mysteron - 4
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Postby pjdonald on Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:08 am

3 divisions (6 advancers) down, one to go. I think this is the first time a division has completed 3 games and no one has yet secured a place in the next round. Everyone controls their own destiny as well (in that they advance by winning).

Currently:

phil 8, Danelle 7, pj 5, mia 4.

phil: advances by winning or finishing 2nd. Advances by finishing 3rd or 4th if Danelle wins, and advances by finishing 3rd if pj wins.

Danelle: advances by winning. Advances by finishing 2nd or 3rd if phil wins. Advances by finishing 2nd if pj wins and phil finishes last. Advances by finishing 4th if phil wins and pj finishes 3rd.

pj: advances by winning. Advances by finishing 2nd if Danelle finishes last and Mia finishes 3rd.

mia: advances by winning.

Round 4 should start soon.
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Inappropriate play? You can decide

Postby Miandw on Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:35 am

I have something to share about the game that is mentioned in the immediate preceeding message. This was the final game of a hard fought match with everyine alive.
Half way through the game (Game 900010) and at a critical time, the below appears in the chat - prior to this, there had basically been no communication between players:

2007-10-04 15:04:26 - pjdonald: ok danelle, some free advice....
2007-10-04 15:05:13 - pjdonald: I can't turn in, and mia's lined up to take me out (since he/she can turn in, it'll be easy. Phil could get me first, but only if he has a lucky set)
2007-10-04 15:07:06 - pjdonald: if mia gets me, he could turn in again and its probably lights out for you as well (if mia wins and gets 9 points, you're eliminated). So if you can turn in, I would suggest taking out the yellow in imperius, julian, asclepius, and ballista (center).
2007-10-04 22:31:14 - pjdonald: uh oh. I explicitly omitted ballista (outer) from my advice. Had danelle left that alive I would have no shot to eliminate mia. Now I do. Is taking that shot bad form?
2007-10-05 02:08:23 - pjdonald: man, I feel guilty - I had no ulterior motives - I really was trying to look out for my RTB doubles partner!


Below is the rest of the chat which basically lays out my position on what took place. Am I out of line and is this just 'part of the game'?

2007-10-05 03:55:20 - Miandw: Nice Job PJ - I guess since it's your tournament you get to tell people whatever needs to be said so you can advance
2007-10-05 03:59:54 - Miandw: You should remove yourself from the rest of this tournament for offfering advise to an opponent and informing them that you can't turn in.
2007-10-05 10:44:04 - Philthegitt: 4 good games floks. Cheers. I kinda agree with Danelle - PJ you should just play the game and not suggest plays to other players. We've all made it this far so must have a rough idea what we're doing!
2007-10-05 12:24:25 - pjdonald: like I said, I do feel bad. Would it have been better if I just announced I couldn't turn in and let dan decide what to do from there? Surely that's permissible.
2007-10-05 12:25:50 - pjdonald: But also like I said, if danelle had followed my advice, it sure wouldn't have turned out this way.
2007-10-05 14:11:24 - Miandw: You manipulated the game by providing advise to an opponent and by disclosing the fact that you can't turn in cards.
2007-10-05 14:12:31 - Miandw: Cards are not visible to opponents for a reason - disclosure of hidden card information for the benefit of yourself and a particular opponent, in my eyes, constitutes collusion.
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Postby Aerial Attack on Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:01 am

I think I may be to blame.

I figured out what I needed to do in order to advance. In order to do that, I needed help from another player who also needed to use some of the same strategy. As long as you declare an alliance in chat, it is okay. The other player did not end up taking my advice and we lost.

As you can see, pj saw what I had written.

My 4th Game (Game #900009)

2007-09-23 00:21:38 - Aerial Attack: hi all, gl
2007-09-26 17:32:59 - Aerial Attack: Mysteron, I hate to do this - but we need to eliminate Easy if we want to move on
2007-09-26 17:33:26 - Aerial Attack: yellow, you have 2 points and I have 3. Forza has 12 and has moved on
2007-09-26 17:33:46 - Aerial Attack: Easy has 7 points. He wins a tie breaker over me (more starting points, more wins)
2007-09-26 17:34:29 - Aerial Attack: If you win you get to 7, but need Easy to be at 7 (in which case it goes down to a coin flip - or an elimination game)
2007-09-26 17:34:55 - Aerial Attack: so, we both need to attack green first, and then let the rest sort itself out
2007-09-26 17:38:30 - Aerial Attack: I didn't mention anything before - because game 3 was still being decided (if Mysteron had won, then strategy would be different)
2007-09-28 11:05:20 - Easy n Dirty: seems Mysteron was less than impressed by your reasoning Aerial ;)
2007-09-28 11:07:30 - Easy n Dirty: I didn't see these comments until now - doesn't yellow actually have 4 points? I have him with 4 points and Forza with only 10
2007-09-28 11:20:35 - Easy n Dirty: either way, np with the comments - i understand and appreciate your reluctance, but you do what you gotta' do
2007-09-28 11:20:52 - Easy n Dirty: hey Forza, let's team up and squash Aerial! ;)
2007-09-28 13:22:30 - Aerial Attack: Ah, I thought Forza finished 2nd in game 1 (and Mystern last). Well, the same logic still applies - if we get rid of you first, then we have a shot (otherwise no)
2007-09-28 13:24:43 - Aerial Attack: Forza has no vested interest - his 10 guarantees he's in (Mysteron can't catch him nor can I)
2007-09-28 13:33:46 - Easy n Dirty: actually i think your logic is worng - only way either of you can advance is to win this game
2007-09-28 13:34:13 - Easy n Dirty: if you win, you need me to finsh 3rd (for a tie) or last (u advance)
2007-09-28 13:34:52 - Easy n Dirty: if mysteron wins, he would need me to finish 2nd (for a tie) or 3rd/4th (he advances)
2007-09-28 13:35:06 - Easy n Dirty: i'll be back shortly to take my move, gotta do something for work first
2007-09-29 12:38:35 - Aerial Attack: Easy - you win a tie, breaker against me and would be exactly even with Mysteron in a tie (coin flip or elimination game)
2007-09-29 12:40:08 - Aerial Attack: If - as I mistakenly thought - Mysteron only had 2 points, then we would both need you to finish last AND need to win
2007-09-29 12:40:45 - Aerial Attack: doesn't look like it matters, I don't think Mysteron ever saw or is ever going to see these comments (appears headed for deadbeat land)
2007-09-29 12:43:02 - Aerial Attack: of course, he could be being devious (waiting for us to use our card sets AND come back with tripled armies ... not kosher in my book)
2007-09-29 12:48:58 - Mysteron: nothing as mischevious as that, just had to go away on business
2007-09-29 12:49:36 - Mysteron: btw, never deadbeated ever.
2007-09-29 22:42:12 - Aerial Attack: no prob Myst, usually it's nice to say - I'm going to miss a turn (or get a sitter)
2007-10-01 09:41:12 - pjdonald: impressed with all the analysis. fwiw, I've got Forza 10, Easy 7, Mysteron 4, Aerial 3, with Prior Points: Easy 34, Aerial 22, Mysteron 22, Forza 17. Prior Wins: Aerial 3, Mysteron 4.
2007-10-01 09:47:12 - pjdonald: let me know if any of that seems wrong

2007-10-01 13:36:55 - Aerial Attack: I remember now, I knew I had Mysteron ahead of me for some reason (the total wins) - accidentally transposed that to Easy's score
2007-10-01 13:38:01 - Aerial Attack: Easy just needs to eliminate Mysteron (or hold on and finish 2nd). Mysteron needs to win and have Easy finish 3rd or 4th, I need to win and have Easy finish 4th
2007-10-01 13:38:44 - Aerial Attack: And Forza wants as many points as possible, since he's probably close to last (in tie-breaker terms) of those advancing to the next round
2007-10-01 15:22:53 - pjdonald: yes, that sounds right. The tiebreak between Mysteron and Aerial is irrelevant, since the only place they can tie for is 3rd in the group.
2007-10-03 15:38:49 - Easy n Dirty: bah - i screwed up right there
2007-10-03 15:40:12 - Aerial Attack: how did you screw up? You just advanced to the next round (eliminating me AND Mysteron by taking him out)
2007-10-03 15:45:32 - Aerial Attack: well, you did mess up there - but it doesn't matter (I don't have a set)
2007-10-03 15:47:12 - Easy n Dirty: no, i messed up by advancing to frigg, but ended up being able to take out forza anyway
2007-10-03 15:50:26 - Easy n Dirty: gg all, enjoyed playing with you guys


I just noticed the part about his not being able to turn in. That may have crossed the line to a team game. But, it did let everyone else know what he was thinking (again - it was stated publicly in chat, not a secret alliance).
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Postby Miandw on Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:40 am

"I just noticed the part about his not being able to turn in. That may have crossed the line to a team game. But, it did let everyone else know what he was thinking (again - it was stated publicly in chat, not a secret alliance)."

pjdonald made these stataments just before it was Danielle turn. Right after Danielle went, PJ went. By the time they were done with their two turns they were the only two left in the game.
How does letting us know of their 'collusive' intent the moment before they eliminate us from the game constitute adequate notice?
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Postby Aerial Attack on Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:13 pm

Miandw wrote: pjdonald made these stataments just before it was Danielle turn. Right after Danielle went, PJ went. By the time they were done with their two turns they were the only two left in the game.
How does letting us know of their 'collusive' intent the moment before they eliminate us from the game constitute adequate notice?


The boldface word is a pretty significant accusation.

In a normal singles game, you will see plenty of "collusive" actions - simply because it is in the best interest of the players involved to team up against a clear leader. Most times this will happen without any spoken/written communication. Sometimes someone needs to speak up and point out what's happening.

A tournament is a different matter altogether, yet somehow the same. He was just doing what comes naturally - sharing his ideas with someone who has the same interests as he does (usually a teammate).

Now, I understand your frustration over what has transpired - it's not exactly comforting to know that people teamed up to take you out of a "singles" tournament.

That being said, who should advance in pj's stead? Had you won, you would have earned enough points to advance - but, who is to say that the dice gods would have been kind enough to allow that? Here are only 3 possible solutions:

1) You replay the game amongst the four of you. Fairest, except that as long as they declare their intent at the beginning - pj and Danelle could openly team and try to repeat the previous result.

2a) You are each assigned 2 [of the 8 possible] points
2b) The two who advance are the two highest OVERALL scorers from ALL remaining non-advances [includes other brackets]

Based on the way that pj destroyed the field in the first two rounds, he would move on in option 2 (not sure who the other advancer would be - but I'm guessing there is someone out there with 30+ points that didn't move on).

3) Points for game four assigned as "earned" AND pj recuse himself from the tournament [would still need to determine next two to advance - 2b]

Seeing as how pj is the offending party, he should NOT be the decider as to the method of dispute resolution.

Not sure that the offended (Miandw and PhilTheGitt) should be the final arbitrators either.

Mia and Phil, please post your opinions here.
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My opinion

Postby Miandw on Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:38 pm

At the point just before pj began his chat he was in very poor position and was going to be the first person taken out. I think the words he wrote in the chat were a desperate move to do what he could to survive into the next round. By revealing his cards information along with providing specific advice to an opponent he crossed the line. I don't think he should reap the benefit of points he scored in this game nor should he be allowed to play in a make up game. He is the cause of this mess. I would like to see a replay between remaining 3 players.
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Postby Danelle on Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:44 pm

This is how I feel about all this!!

2007-10-05 08:54:42 - Danelle: This is all so out of proportion - I was going for yellow anyway because he had 5 cards and I thought with good rolls I could have done it. But alas I ran out of luck and pj took the bull by the horns and went for it.
2007-10-05 09:00:16 - Danelle: Good on him - like none of you would have sat back when you could see a way of wining. I think you guys have jumped to conclusions about us being in on it - at no time did I think that I was teaming up on the others.

Are you guys saying that you have never been eliminated without seeing it coming - escalating is good like that!!

Ciao
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Postby pjdonald on Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:11 pm

Thanks Danelle.

By the way, here's the rest of the chat, that I posted after miandw posted his comments, and before danelle his.

2007-10-05 12:47:55 - pjdonald: mia, thanks for your response, but collusion, as defined by Webster's, is "secret cooperation between people in order to do something illegal or underhanded". All you might have left is "underhanded", but I don't know that I get the notion that I can't..
2007-10-05 12:49:00 - pjdonald: disclose anything I want whenever I want as long as all my opponents have access to the same info. I did something that was clearly in my own best interests, and if excecuted to the letter, would have been in danelle's interests as well.
2007-10-05 12:49:59 - pjdonald: All that being said, I probably wouldn't do it again, because you and phil (and danelle) are good players and I respect your indignation. But it was not collusive or against the rules.

I'm genuinely sorry you're offended, miandw. My intent wasn't to be able to take you out (at least immediately; of course that was my eventual intent!) - it was merely to stay alive. Essentially you seem to be perturbed that I was coaching. This "collusion" angle is ridiculous, but if your point is that in the 3rd round of a tournament, with obviously capable players, where the stakes are comparatively high, that no advice should be given to other players, I can at least see that point of view.

I don't agree with that point of view, but as I said in the chat, I will consider it next time I am faced with such a situation.

As for the other point that disclosing my card situation is somehow against the rules, I'm just not sure I follow that. If you think that is bad form, OK. If you think it is cheating, I'm afraid I have to disagree.

Aerial, I appreciate your participation in the discussion. However, positing that Danelle and I "teamed up to take [Miandw] out" is incorrect. Danelle really made this whole thing moot by revealing that he was trying to eliminate Miandw, but even had he not been going for the kill, what benefit was there for him to help me eliminate Miandw? He had to win to advance, or if he finished 2nd, he needed Phil to be the first eliminated, not Miandw.
Major pjdonald
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:17 pm
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Medals: 23
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1)
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Postby pjdonald on Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:13 pm

Final Round 3 Standings


Code: Select all
Div   Playr   Pts   Player   Pts   Player   Pts   Player   Pts
1   *Easy N   12   ^Aerial    5   ^mystero   4   *Forza    11
2   *pjdona   10   ^Miandw_   4   *Philthe   9   ^Danelle   9
3   *dragon    8   ^zim____   4   *the2lo   12   ^cjoe___   8
4   ^Keellan   3   ^Laskdjf   7   *rabbito   9   *ttd___   13
Major pjdonald
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:17 pm
Location: Minnesota
Medals: 23
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (1)
Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (1) Tournament Achievement (2)
Tournament Contribution (5)

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