Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Discussions Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:02 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Ok- you have the floor, what is the second amendment (you can pick which of the two versions you want) saying clearly?


Why would I want to have the floor in a discussion with you regarding the second amendment? Your motivations for engaging in such a discussion are suspect at best. I'm not keen on submitting myself to your particular brand of argument anymore.


Your argument, I offered for you to explain, you refused.


I wasn't clear. Sorry.

I'm not going to engage in any substantive discussions with you on this or any other issue because you aren't interested in having a discussion.
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby KoolBak on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:12 pm

Let's ask the Aussies

"Gypsy told my fortune...she said that nothin showed...."

Neil Young....Like An Inca
User avatar
Sergeant KoolBak
 
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:03 pm
Location: The beautiful Pacific Northwest
Medals: 26
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Symmetry on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:13 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Ok- you have the floor, what is the second amendment (you can pick which of the two versions you want) saying clearly?


Why would I want to have the floor in a discussion with you regarding the second amendment? Your motivations for engaging in such a discussion are suspect at best. I'm not keen on submitting myself to your particular brand of argument anymore.


Your argument, I offered for you to explain, you refused.


I wasn't clear. Sorry.

I'm not going to engage in any substantive discussions with you on this or any other issue because you aren't interested in having a discussion.


You could have simply not replied. The only other poster who tells me when his temper tantrums dicate whther he's not talking to me or not is PhatScotty.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby chang50 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:25 pm

KoolBak wrote:Let's ask the Aussies



Correction,let's ask a small sample of Aussies..
User avatar
Lieutenant chang50
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:54 am
Location: pattaya,thailand
Medals: 11
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Beta Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby KoolBak on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:26 pm

The statistics they quote were from a small sample?
"Gypsy told my fortune...she said that nothin showed...."

Neil Young....Like An Inca
User avatar
Sergeant KoolBak
 
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:03 pm
Location: The beautiful Pacific Northwest
Medals: 26
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby chang50 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:44 pm

KoolBak wrote:The statistics they quote were from a small sample?


I've no idea how the statistics were compiled,but anyone can see the video you posted only presented the opinions of an extremely small number of Aussies.There are in excess of 20 million Aussies,inevitably some will be in favour of their gun laws,and some against,like anywhere else.
User avatar
Lieutenant chang50
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:54 am
Location: pattaya,thailand
Medals: 11
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Beta Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby KoolBak on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:58 pm

chang50 wrote:
KoolBak wrote:The statistics they quote were from a small sample?


I've no idea how the statistics were compiled,but anyone can see the video you posted only presented the opinions of an extremely small number of Aussies.There are in excess of 20 million Aussies,inevitably some will be in favour of their gun laws,and some against,like anywhere else.


Ah....I'm sorry then :D

....you know the employees at our local Thai food restaurant are surly too....... :lol:
"Gypsy told my fortune...she said that nothin showed...."

Neil Young....Like An Inca
User avatar
Sergeant KoolBak
 
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:03 pm
Location: The beautiful Pacific Northwest
Medals: 26
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby comic boy on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:05 pm

KoolBak wrote:The statistics they quote were from a small sample?


I am loathe to argue with any Neil Young fan but you know full well that there are lies , damn lies and then statistics. The NRA were forced to issue a retraction because they misrepresented Aussie crime stats yet the same misinformation gets repeated time and again. We are also told that violent assualts rocketed in the UK following gun restrictions but again not true , in actual fact what changed ( some years after the ban ) was the way in which crime statistics were defined , for example a domestic slap was upgraded to become a violent assault.
This change was purely cosmetic in order to make the government of the day appear tough on violent crime and to massage police arrest stats , I posted links to this effect a couple of years ago and they were of course ignored by the gun enthusiasts on this forum , why was that do you think ?
Im a TOFU miSfit
User avatar
Brigadier comic boy
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:54 pm
Location: London
Medals: 28
Conqueror Achievement (1) Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2)
Terminator Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2)
Ratings Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby KoolBak on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:11 pm

Agreed (on Neil and the other stuff)....just thought it would be interesting to post. A few buds I have in Oz Land have never mentioned any of that crap as a matter of fact ;)
"Gypsy told my fortune...she said that nothin showed...."

Neil Young....Like An Inca
User avatar
Sergeant KoolBak
 
Posts: 3638
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:03 pm
Location: The beautiful Pacific Northwest
Medals: 26
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby chang50 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:14 pm

KoolBak wrote:
chang50 wrote:
KoolBak wrote:The statistics they quote were from a small sample?


I've no idea how the statistics were compiled,but anyone can see the video you posted only presented the opinions of an extremely small number of Aussies.There are in excess of 20 million Aussies,inevitably some will be in favour of their gun laws,and some against,like anywhere else.


Ah....I'm sorry then :D

....you know the employees at our local Thai food restaurant are surly too....... :lol:


Apology accepted,but I'm baffled as to the relevance of the reference to the employees at a Thai restaurant,are you under the misapprehension I am Thai?
User avatar
Lieutenant chang50
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:54 am
Location: pattaya,thailand
Medals: 11
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (2) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Beta Map Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:51 pm

show
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class DoomYoshi
Entertainment Contributor
Entertainment Contributor
 
Posts: 3439
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:30 pm
Location: Termina Field
Medals: 70
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (2) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (8) Clan Achievement (16)
Tournament Contribution (4) General Contribution (5)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:22 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Juan - do you support the current plan provided by gun control advocates? If so, why? If not, why not?

Depends which advocates. I agree with a whole bunch of ideas, but I don't support the idea of just reinstating the Assault Rifle ban that expired in 2004. To my knowledge, the only plan that has been taken to Congress was that bill submitted/read 5 days ago to ban sales of large clips. I support that, but that bill alone isn't going to do anything to lower the number of fatal shootings. Hypothetically speaking, it should make mass shootings safer, if there is such a thing, but it's not gonna stop a potential shooter.
The Obama administration is also requiring that gun dealers notify the Executive when they sell 2 or more assault-type rifles to a single purchaser in the states along the Mexican border. This is contrary to what I just read that NS wrote, and I'm reading that our American gun manufacturers may sue Obama citing a violation of the Constitution. Luckily this is probably the perfect time for them to sue, if they want public opinion to turn against guns even more.
But I support this requirement as well. These Assault Rifle-style guns aren't typically used in crime here in the US (something like 380 murders a year), but they are trucked over the border and used to kill Mexicans. I believe we ultimately have a duty to our Southern neighbors to not just sit back and watch the violence that we help fuel with our guns and drug appetite. And this requirement seems to me to be the bare minimum of what we can/should do. I'd also like to hear some ideas about how to end those 380 or so American deaths each year as well. As our population continues to grow, I'm afraid that the numbers of shootings are going to increase as well.



I also agree with Sym that the language of the 2nd Amendment as written isn't very clear as to where lines are supposed to be drawn.

    Does a state armory not mean that the people have arms to bear?

    Why would Congress add the phrase "Well-Regulated Militia" if Militia's are irrelevant?

    And if a citizen is not a part of a "well-regulated militia," do they have the right to carry a gun, ever?

    Did not the battles of Lexington & Concord happen because the British were on route to capture an American armory, but not to take away individual's guns? The British had always permitted Americans to own their own guns, what they did not want to permit was state and local armories. So doesn't it make sense that these State Militia weapon's caches were what Congress was trying to protect?

    Did not George Washington himself head an American Army to conquer rural American farmers? Was he trying to attack the security of a free state, or protect it?
Ignore the Supremer Court's split decision of 2008 for a moment. Ask yourself what you think Congress meant in 1779.

As Congress passed it;
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


"The right of the people to keep and bear arms" is not a self-defining absolute.
The best example of what I'm trying to say is the first amendment, which states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
And this sounds like a self-defining absolute. But it's not either. You don't have the absolute Freedom to say whatever you want. You cannot defame a person with false slanders, and you cannot yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, you cannot sell child porn, you cannot threaten to kill someone, you can't blast music at 3AM in a suburb, etc etc.

History, b*tches
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Juan_Bottom
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 4:59 pm
Location: USA RULES! WHOOO!!!!
Medals: 21
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (2)
Clan Achievement (3)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:51 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Depends which advocates. I agree with a whole bunch of ideas, but I don't support the idea of just reinstating the Assault Rifle ban that expired in 2004. To my knowledge, the only plan that has been taken to Congress was that bill submitted/read 5 days ago to ban sales of large clips. I support that, but that bill alone isn't going to do anything to lower the number of fatal shootings. Hypothetically speaking, it should make mass shootings safer, if there is such a thing, but it's not gonna stop a potential shooter.
The Obama administration is also requiring that gun dealers notify the Executive when they sell 2 or more assault-type rifles to a single purchaser in the states along the Mexican border. This is contrary to what I just read that NS wrote, and I'm reading that our American gun manufacturers may sue Obama citing a violation of the Constitution. Luckily this is probably the perfect time for them to sue, if they want public opinion to turn against guns even more.
But I support this requirement as well. These Assault Rifle-style guns aren't typically used in crime here in the US (something like 380 murders a year), but they are trucked over the border and used to kill Mexicans. I believe we ultimately have a duty to our Southern neighbors to not just sit back and watch the violence that we help fuel with our guns and drug appetite. And this requirement seems to me to be the bare minimum of what we can/should do. I'd also like to hear some ideas about how to end those 380 or so American deaths each year as well. As our population continues to grow, I'm afraid that the numbers of shootings are going to increase as well.


I don't disagree with most of that.

Juan_Bottom wrote:Does a state armory not mean that the people have arms to bear?

Why would Congress add the phrase "Well-Regulated Militia" if Militia's are irrelevant?

And if a citizen is not a part of a "well-regulated militia," do they have the right to carry a gun, ever?

Did not the battles of Lexington & Concord happen because the British were on route to capture an American armory, but not to take away individual's guns? The British had always permitted Americans to own their own guns, what they did not want to permit was state and local armories. So doesn't it make sense that these State Militia weapon's caches were what Congress was trying to protect?

Did not George Washington himself head an American Army to conquer rural American farmers? Was he trying to attack the security of a free state, or protect it?

Ignore the Supremer Court's split decision of 2008 for a moment. Ask yourself what you think Congress meant in 1779.

As Congress passed it;
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


"The right of the people to keep and bear arms" is not a self-defining absolute.
The best example of what I'm trying to say is the first amendment, which states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
And this sounds like a self-defining absolute. But it's not either. You don't have the absolute Freedom to say whatever you want. You cannot defame a person with false slanders, and you cannot yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, you cannot sell child porn, you cannot threaten to kill someone, you can't blast music at 3AM in a suburb, etc etc.


Okay, let me ask a related question regarding the First Amendment. When was it determined and who determined that the First Amendment was not absolute? When was it determined and who determined that the Second Amendment was to be interpreted the way it is currently interpreted? How was the amendment interpreted prior to 2008?
Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby Night Strike on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:34 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:As Congress passed it;
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


"The right of the people to keep and bear arms" is not a self-defining absolute.


No, but "shall not be infringed" is about as absolute as one can get.

Juan_Bottom wrote:The best example of what I'm trying to say is the first amendment, which states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
And this sounds like a self-defining absolute. But it's not either. You don't have the absolute Freedom to say whatever you want. You cannot defame a person with false slanders, and you cannot yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, you cannot sell child porn, you cannot threaten to kill someone, you can't blast music at 3AM in a suburb, etc etc.


You also can't use arms (guns) to intimidate, threaten, or kill others. So why should you even further be banned from owning them?

Furthermore, what if we treated the First Amendment like we treat the Second Amendment? Why don't we only allow people to speak if they attend government-approved classes and get government-issued licenses? Why don't we allow the government to decide which people are responsible enough to be members of the press? We force each of those things on the Second Amendment and people want even more restrictions and bans. Why aren't those things forced on the First Amendment also?
Image
User avatar
Lieutenant Night Strike
Tournament Director
Tournament Director
 
Posts: 8622
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:52 pm
Medals: 77
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (2)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (10) Tournament Contribution (12) General Contribution (18)

Re: Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:01 am

Night Strike wrote:You also can't use arms (guns) to intimidate, threaten, or kill others. So why should you even further be banned from owning them?

Furthermore, what if we treated the First Amendment like we treat the Second Amendment? Why don't we only allow people to speak if they attend government-approved classes and get government-issued licenses? Why don't we allow the government to decide which people are responsible enough to be members of the press? We force each of those things on the Second Amendment and people want even more restrictions and bans. Why aren't those things forced on the First Amendment also?

Quick, duck! I'm going to let loose a bunch of word projectiles in this topic, and I will not be held responsible for my lack of accuracy!

Duck! Now!


--Andy
User avatar
Corporal AndyDufresne
Retired Administrator
 
Posts: 25042
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:22 pm
Location: A Banana Palm in Zihuatanejo
Medals: 20
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) General Achievement (4) General Contribution (2)

PreviousNext

Return to Whose Forum is It Anyway?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: tkr4lf and 4 guests

cron
Login