He's called a "traitor"

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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby stahrgazer on Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:47 pm

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.


First, he is guilty of espionage, by intentionally gaining "secrets" for the sole purpose of sharing those secrets - supposedly he admitted he took his job solely in order to gain "secret" information.

He is not necessarily guilty of "sedition" since "sedition" requires offensive type language against the US.(He may or may not have used foul language, but unless he did, it's not sedition.)

An argument could be made that because he set out to gain - and release - United States "secrets" he has 'declared war" on the United States.

Traditional warfare includes armed conflict, but given that US law is based on precedent/origins and precise meanings of words, then an understanding of the history of the word is in order.

The English word war derives from the late Old English (c.1050) words wyrre and werre; the Old North French werre; the Frankish werra; and the Proto-Germanic werso. The denotation of war derives from the Old Saxon werran, Old High German werran, and the German verwirren: “to confuse”, “to perplex”, and “to bring into confusion”.


See, if "war" is derived from words meaning confuse, perplex; then certainly it's a reasonable argument that he deliberately set about to "confuse things" for the United States and hence, "declared war," on the nation.

An argument could also be made that release of some of these "secrets" has "aided" our enemies, and that would be true even if the enemies had other ways to gain the same info.
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby karel on Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:55 pm

better yet,call in seal team 6 and kill the sob
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby Teflon Kris on Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:12 pm

Night Strike wrote:The government is working to make it illegal for a person to inform the public of the government acting illegally. They praise it when a private sector person blows the whistle on illegal business activities, but they turn around and make it illegal for the same whistleblowing to happen within the government.


We seem to have the reverse over here - try to whistle-blow about a private company and nobody is interested, no public body can be bothered to act and the press cant be bothered if the fraud isnt billions.

Sadly, corporate and institutional corruption is rife everywhere, the media select a few snippets for us to talk about, and we watch fat cats and representatives get pay-offs, sell stories and become directors elsewhere. Then we get threatened if we make a mistake on our tax return, or some other paperwork is late or out of place.

Even sadder, we just seem to accept that this is the way things are, and spend hours of our time doing the establishments paperwork for them, or sorting out corporations services and mistakes for them (that they are charging us for). How much time do we all spend registering online and changing passwords for them? Not only do we not get paid for this work, we have to foot the expenses (postage, electric, telephone) ourselves. I'm sure the rat race is getting worse.
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:33 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Do Americans really care about what the NSA does? If so, what kind of actions are they willing to take?

From what I've seen over the past 12 years, "No," and "not enough."

Does that mean that most Americans support their government's decisions in these matters? Or do they simply not care enough (e.g. most potential voters don't participate in elections)?


I don't know what meaningful action I can take to help change the way the NSA runs. Can someone please guide me? BBS, perhaps share your experiences in this matter?


Perhaps your utilitarianism will guide your head from your anus? Since the pleasure fails to offset the pain, then I doubt that'll stop!

(not @Mets)

Here's the conclusions which people should be drawing:


1. Don't be naive about the political process.

    That's a real good one that more people need to adopt.

2. There's not much of a difference between Democrats and Republicans in matters of National Security.

    So, the idea of voting for Obama because he's going to be... more peaceful, or would end what Bush and that Congress started, is erroneous.

3. Don't believe the rhetoric.

    So many people bought Obama's horseshit, and now they're surprised? See #1.


It's not that hard to draw such conclusions, but what explains why voters fail to update?

It's like they've got a broken feedback loop.
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:34 pm

karel wrote:well all you idiots think this dick bag is a hero,well when we have another 9/11 ,im sure you all will be very,very happy about it,then you all can bitch that the nsa did not stop it,get a life


Haggis_McMutton wrote:
karel wrote:well if you were talking about shit to blow something up or say certian words,or plans on killing the president,then you deserve to be tap with out warning,,with out the nsa we are less safer,so just get over it


Do you think the purpose of government is to make us as safe as possible?
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby karel on Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:32 pm

like i said i have no problem what the nsa is doing
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:24 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Do Americans really care about what the NSA does? If so, what kind of actions are they willing to take?

From what I've seen over the past 12 years, "No," and "not enough."

Does that mean that most Americans support their government's decisions in these matters? Or do they simply not care enough (e.g. most potential voters don't participate in elections)?


I don't know what meaningful action I can take to help change the way the NSA runs. Can someone please guide me? BBS, perhaps share your experiences in this matter?


Perhaps your utilitarianism will guide your head from your anus? Since the pleasure fails to offset the pain, then I doubt that'll stop!

(not @Mets)

Here's the conclusions which people should be drawing:


1. Don't be naive about the political process.

    That's a real good one that more people need to adopt.

2. There's not much of a difference between Democrats and Republicans in matters of National Security.

    So, the idea of voting for Obama because he's going to be... more peaceful, or would end what Bush and that Congress started, is erroneous.

3. Don't believe the rhetoric.

    So many people bought Obama's horseshit, and now they're surprised? See #1.


It's not that hard to draw such conclusions, but what explains why voters fail to update?

It's like they've got a broken feedback loop.


My question stands. If I choose not to believe the rhetoric, what can I do to meaningfully change the way the NSA operates?
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:10 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:what can I do to meaningfully change the way the NSA operates?


Step One (easiest step): Vote for someone who will change the way the NSA operates (and tell your friends).
Step Two (slightly harder): Campaign for someone who will change the way the NSA operates.
Step Three (hard): Run for office to change the way the NSA operates.
Step Four (suicidal): Rebel.

I mean, for f*ck's sake, at least vote for a real Democrat.
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:16 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:what can I do to meaningfully change the way the NSA operates?


Step One (easiest step): Vote for someone who will change the way the NSA operates (and tell your friends).
Step Two (slightly harder): Campaign for someone who will change the way the NSA operates.


But what do I do if I agree with a candidate on a number of issues, but disagree with them on the NSA's abilities? Where do I rank that in my priority list?

The point I'm trying to make is that voting is often the least influential thing you can do to change any particular policy. Writing letters to your representatives and writing to your local newspaper's LTE or op-ed section is much more effective.
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:19 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:what can I do to meaningfully change the way the NSA operates?


Step One (easiest step): Vote for someone who will change the way the NSA operates (and tell your friends).
Step Two (slightly harder): Campaign for someone who will change the way the NSA operates.


But what do I do if I agree with a candidate on a number of issues, but disagree with them on the NSA's abilities? Where do I rank that in my priority list?

The point I'm trying to make is that voting is often the least influential thing you can do to change any particular policy. Writing letters to your representatives and writing to your local newspaper's LTE or op-ed section is much more effective.


Rank it where you want to rank it.

I disagree that either of those are more effective than voting. I prefer Step Two, but writing letters to the editor is "tell your friends." And letters to your representative are unlikely to be read. Voting at least gives a result (albeit just one... which is why you have to tell your friends).
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:21 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:what can I do to meaningfully change the way the NSA operates?


Step One (easiest step): Vote for someone who will change the way the NSA operates (and tell your friends).
Step Two (slightly harder): Campaign for someone who will change the way the NSA operates.


But what do I do if I agree with a candidate on a number of issues, but disagree with them on the NSA's abilities? Where do I rank that in my priority list?

The point I'm trying to make is that voting is often the least influential thing you can do to change any particular policy. Writing letters to your representatives and writing to your local newspaper's LTE or op-ed section is much more effective.


Rank it where you want to rank it.

I disagree that either of those are more effective than voting. I prefer Step Two, but writing letters to the editor is "tell your friends." And letters to your representative are unlikely to be read. Voting at least gives a result (albeit just one... which is why you have to tell your friends).


Letters to your representative are likely to be read. Not necessarily by the representative, but usually by someone on staff at least. If you don't believe me, call up your representative's office and ask.

The problem with voting is that if you vote for a candidate and then lose, now what? You've accomplished effectively nothing. If you are serious about an issue, you have to convince whoever is in office to feel the way you do, not just vote for someone and hope that they will do what they said they would during the campaign (*cough*). Citizenship starts at the ballot box, it doesn't end there.
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:44 pm

karel wrote:well all you idiots think this dick bag is a hero,well when we have another 9/11 ,im sure you all will be very,very happy about it,then you all can bitch that the nsa did not stop it,get a life


We did have another one. These measures didn't stop the Boston Bombings.
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:48 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:And letters to your representative are unlikely to be read.


Letters to your representative are likely to be read. Not necessarily by the representative, but usually by someone on staff at least. If you don't believe me, call up your representative's office and ask.


This really is true. Tabs, at the very least, are kept as to what issues folks are writing about and where they stand on them, which ARE passed to the representatives.
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:49 pm

Nobunaga wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:"My understanding is that espionage means giving secret or classified information to the enemy. Since Snowden shared information with the American people, his indictment for espionage could reveal (or confirm) that the US Government views you and me as the enemy."
Ron Paul


Actually, and Ron Paul certainly should know this, it appears that he has also recently provided some information to China regarding our activities involving them. So while I certainly don't disagree with Ron Paul's sentiment here, there is some legitimacy to the espionage charge in light of this.


I have to agree. But I wonder if he knew anything to tell the Chinese that they didn't already know.


While probably true, that still provides intelligence information in the form of verification/substantiation. Having information from two sources is better than having it from one for the purposes of knowing the validity of the information.
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Re: He's called a "traitor"

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:16 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:what can I do to meaningfully change the way the NSA operates?


Step One (easiest step): Vote for someone who will change the way the NSA operates (and tell your friends).
Step Two (slightly harder): Campaign for someone who will change the way the NSA operates.


But what do I do if I agree with a candidate on a number of issues, but disagree with them on the NSA's abilities? Where do I rank that in my priority list?

The point I'm trying to make is that voting is often the least influential thing you can do to change any particular policy. Writing letters to your representatives and writing to your local newspaper's LTE or op-ed section is much more effective.


Rank it where you want to rank it.

I disagree that either of those are more effective than voting. I prefer Step Two, but writing letters to the editor is "tell your friends." And letters to your representative are unlikely to be read. Voting at least gives a result (albeit just one... which is why you have to tell your friends).


Letters to your representative are likely to be read. Not necessarily by the representative, but usually by someone on staff at least. If you don't believe me, call up your representative's office and ask.

The problem with voting is that if you vote for a candidate and then lose, now what? You've accomplished effectively nothing. If you are serious about an issue, you have to convince whoever is in office to feel the way you do, not just vote for someone and hope that they will do what they said they would during the campaign (*cough*). Citizenship starts at the ballot box, it doesn't end there.


I've worked for representatives, worked on campaigns, and have written letters. Letters have no effect in my experience.
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