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2018 World Cup in Russia

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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby Donelladan on Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:58 pm

betiko wrote:Anyways, pretty amazed by the shitstorm concerning the amount of african descendents that we have in our team and all in some foreign countries. Some people might be uneducated concerning france's history... but some others are plain idiots.
All these guys grew up in france, or on french islands. They all feel french more than anything, if their skin colour is a problem to some of you, well I guess the only thing you can do is suck it up. We are very proud of our multicultural heritage and our area of influence throghout the world, just like other european countries who recently had an empire. there were bad things about empires, but good things too.


What good things about empire ? The french population with african origin ? They were good things about 3rd Reich too...
10 words less and that was very good post. No need to claim they were good things about colonialism :)

Also, we aren't all very proud of our multicultural heritage but I am, so let's agree on smthg for once. I remember it next time we argue about what it means to be French.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby betiko on Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:41 pm

Donelladan wrote:
betiko wrote:Anyways, pretty amazed by the shitstorm concerning the amount of african descendents that we have in our team and all in some foreign countries. Some people might be uneducated concerning france's history... but some others are plain idiots.
All these guys grew up in france, or on french islands. They all feel french more than anything, if their skin colour is a problem to some of you, well I guess the only thing you can do is suck it up. We are very proud of our multicultural heritage and our area of influence throghout the world, just like other european countries who recently had an empire. there were bad things about empires, but good things too.


What good things about empire ? The french population with african origin ? They were good things about 3rd Reich too...
10 words less and that was very good post. No need to claim they were good things about colonialism :)

Also, we aren't all very proud of our multicultural heritage but I am, so let's agree on smthg for once. I remember it next time we argue about what it means to be French.


Well it's a complicated question as no one can say for sure how these countries would be nowadays without the colonisation. At least I know that it gave them series of infrastructures, a comon language for them to comunicate, openness to the rest of the world and better access to guns and drugs.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby Donelladan on Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:55 pm

Saying they were good and bad things about colonisation make it seems OK. Just like you say no one is perfect, everyone got flaw.

Colonisation was bad in its essence. Infrastructure were made so that the ressources could be more efficiently exploited.
European countries didn't have the well being of the colonised population in their mind. Not at all. Local population was at best a cheap work force, at worst a hindrance.

That's why you can't say "they were good things about colonisation". This kind of discours is used to pretend colonialism wasn't bad. Colonialism was bad. Bad things can have some positive side effects, but they are still bad, they don't become good.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby betiko on Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:16 pm

So you mean... you can tell me what to say or what to think based on what you think is ok or not?
My point of view is that colonisation was not such a bad thing as you are depicting.
And yes, they were somehow interested in the colonized wellbeing as they tried to save their souls through evangelism. That was bad, but they thought that what they were doing was good for their wellbeing. Lots of mistakes were made, and those countries are not part of the third world because they got colonized... but because their societies weren't as advanced as european or asian ones.
They wouldn't even know about some of their ressources or wouldn't've been capable of exploiting them on their own... at least efficiently. And most of their ressources had no value to them.
I'm just saying that it is a grey area. Colonization = bad isn't something i agree with and it's more complicated.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby riskllama on Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:49 pm

betiko wrote:So you mean... you can tell me what to say or what to think based on what you think is ok or not?
My point of view is that colonisation was not such a bad thing as you are depicting.
And yes, they were somehow interested in the colonized wellbeing as they tried to save their souls through evangelism. That was bad, but they thought that what they were doing was good for their wellbeing. Lots of mistakes were made, and those countries are not part of the third world because they got colonized... but because their societies weren't as advanced as european or asian ones.
They wouldn't even know about some of their ressources or wouldn't've been capable of exploiting them on their own... at least efficiently. And most of their ressources had no value to them.
I'm just saying that it is a grey area. Colonization = bad isn't something i agree with and it's more complicated.


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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby Donelladan on Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:55 pm

betiko wrote:My point of view is that colonisation was not such a bad thing as you are depicting.


Factually speaking you are wrong. I think you don't really know what you are talking about. It was way worse that what I've been depicting.

And yes, they were somehow interested in the colonized wellbeing as they tried to save their souls through evangelism. That was bad, but they thought that what they were doing was good for their wellbeing. Lots of mistakes were made, and those countries are not part of the third world because they got colonized... but because their societies weren't as advanced as european or asian ones.


Ridiculous statement to say that they were interested in their well being because they care about their souls. It was really not the case at all in Africa. Not even a little bit.
Btw asian countries were colonized too and suffered from it too.

And I never said they were third world countries because of colonialism, that's not why I am telling you that you can't say colonialism had good sides.
Colonialism was bad because of the racism, the bad treatments of millions of people because of their origin and skin colours. They were 2nd zone citizens in their own countries, with less rights than any white man/woman. Ever heard of the "code de l'indigenat" ?

Slavery was also widespread in colonies. Several millions of slaves were deported for the French colonies by the French. Slaves traffic is a part of colonialism. Which is recognized as a crime against humanity by our country ;)

Colonialism was a really bad thing at the time it happened. There is no need to include the current state of Africa to call colonialism a crime.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby nietzsche on Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:14 pm

the only issue missing here is that there were most likely also local tribes that did the same kind of thing? colonise and rule over others. probably doing worst things to those who rebelled against them.


they often try to paint the spanish colonisation of america in the same way, that thanks to the colonisation we had a culture and a common language, etc. but the truth is that it was a vile thing. but i cannot say the aztecs weren't doing worse things to other tribes, or that they killed our cultures because most mexicans are mestizos.

so i guess we can just say.. it happened? or, all the big boys were doing it?
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby waauw on Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:46 am

nietzsche wrote:the only issue missing here is that there were most likely also local tribes that did the same kind of thing? colonise and rule over others. probably doing worst things to those who rebelled against them.


they often try to paint the spanish colonisation of america in the same way, that thanks to the colonisation we had a culture and a common language, etc. but the truth is that it was a vile thing. but i cannot say the aztecs weren't doing worse things to other tribes, or that they killed our cultures because most mexicans are mestizos.

so i guess we can just say.. it happened? or, all the big boys were doing it?


Exactly. One has to take into account the zeitgeist of the era. The Roman Empire was horribly cruel as well, yet plenty of people talk about it with awe and admiration, not to plaudit the cruelties but because they had objectively admirable accomplishments.

I understand Donelladan's view that you can't laud current or near-past atrocities for the sake of sensibility, but let's face it colonialism is now half a century finished. We can move past that stage now as long as we don't stop acknowledging the negativities.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby Symmetry on Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:31 am

waauw wrote:
nietzsche wrote:the only issue missing here is that there were most likely also local tribes that did the same kind of thing? colonise and rule over others. probably doing worst things to those who rebelled against them.


they often try to paint the spanish colonisation of america in the same way, that thanks to the colonisation we had a culture and a common language, etc. but the truth is that it was a vile thing. but i cannot say the aztecs weren't doing worse things to other tribes, or that they killed our cultures because most mexicans are mestizos.

so i guess we can just say.. it happened? or, all the big boys were doing it?


Exactly. One has to take into account the zeitgeist of the era. The Roman Empire was horribly cruel as well, yet plenty of people talk about it with awe and admiration, not to plaudit the cruelties but because they had objectively admirable accomplishments.

I understand Donelladan's view that you can't laud current or near-past atrocities for the sake of sensibility, but let's face it colonialism is now half a century finished. We can move past that stage now as long as we don't stop acknowledging the negativities.


Is it really finished? States like China and Russia still grab territory when they can. The legacies of older empires still persist.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby Donelladan on Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:54 am

waauw wrote:Exactly. One has to take into account the zeitgeist of the era. The Roman Empire was horribly cruel as well, yet plenty of people talk about it with awe and admiration, not to plaudit the cruelties but because they had objectively admirable accomplishments.

I understand Donelladan's view that you can't laud current or near-past atrocities for the sake of sensibility, but let's face it colonialism is now half a century finished. We can move past that stage now as long as we don't stop acknowledging the negativities.


Well, it's not that long ago. Did we move past the genocide of the jews ?
Also, I am not sure it's easy to move forward if we don't aknowledge our responsibility. Because, obviously, many colonized country did not forget and are not ready to move past it. Them being the offended, it's kinda easy for us to say, "come on, let's forget about it".

But anyway, not my point, I don't mind we try to move forward. I just don't like people saying colonialism also had good sides.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby Symmetry on Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:05 am

Donelladan wrote:
waauw wrote:Exactly. One has to take into account the zeitgeist of the era. The Roman Empire was horribly cruel as well, yet plenty of people talk about it with awe and admiration, not to plaudit the cruelties but because they had objectively admirable accomplishments.

I understand Donelladan's view that you can't laud current or near-past atrocities for the sake of sensibility, but let's face it colonialism is now half a century finished. We can move past that stage now as long as we don't stop acknowledging the negativities.


Well, it's not that long ago. Did we move past the genocide of the jews ?
Also, I am not sure it's easy to move forward if we don't aknowledge our responsibility. Because, obviously, many colonized country did not forget and are not ready to move past it. Them being the offended, it's kinda easy for us to say, "come on, let's forget about it".

But anyway, not my point, I don't mind we try to move forward. I just don't like people saying colonialism also had good sides.


Hmm, clearly colonialism did have good sides, just mainly for the colonialists.

Also, not every country followed the same kind of policy with colonialism. It's easy, but lazy, to lump them together.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby betiko on Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:44 am

Donelladan wrote:
waauw wrote:Exactly. One has to take into account the zeitgeist of the era. The Roman Empire was horribly cruel as well, yet plenty of people talk about it with awe and admiration, not to plaudit the cruelties but because they had objectively admirable accomplishments.

I understand Donelladan's view that you can't laud current or near-past atrocities for the sake of sensibility, but let's face it colonialism is now half a century finished. We can move past that stage now as long as we don't stop acknowledging the negativities.


Well, it's not that long ago. Did we move past the genocide of the jews ?
Also, I am not sure it's easy to move forward if we don't aknowledge our responsibility. Because, obviously, many colonized country did not forget and are not ready to move past it. Them being the offended, it's kinda easy for us to say, "come on, let's forget about it".

But anyway, not my point, I don't mind we try to move forward. I just don't like people saying colonialism also had good sides.


Do we have anything to do with colonialism? Or our parents? Maybe at the generation of our grandparents who might have fought in wars against independence...

I don't feel sorry for things I'm not part of for people who didn't suffer those things directly.
Just as I don't expect germans from our generation or our parent's generation to feel sorry about anything. We are not responsible for our ancestor's actions. We can't judge our ancestor's action from the prism of the 21st century either it makes no sense.

I'd rather think "here is a problem we're partly responsible for, how can we help fix it?" And I think that it is what most colonizing states have been doing in the past few years.
Colonized states should stop whinning and blame it all on colonization and trying to make us feel guilty.
Gaul was colonized by the Roman empire, how the f*ck can that not be seen as an asset for modern France? Are we holding romans accountable for anything?
History is a succession of invasions and "colonizations". Get over it.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby Symmetry on Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:53 am

betiko wrote:
Donelladan wrote:
waauw wrote:Exactly. One has to take into account the zeitgeist of the era. The Roman Empire was horribly cruel as well, yet plenty of people talk about it with awe and admiration, not to plaudit the cruelties but because they had objectively admirable accomplishments.

I understand Donelladan's view that you can't laud current or near-past atrocities for the sake of sensibility, but let's face it colonialism is now half a century finished. We can move past that stage now as long as we don't stop acknowledging the negativities.


Well, it's not that long ago. Did we move past the genocide of the jews ?
Also, I am not sure it's easy to move forward if we don't aknowledge our responsibility. Because, obviously, many colonized country did not forget and are not ready to move past it. Them being the offended, it's kinda easy for us to say, "come on, let's forget about it".

But anyway, not my point, I don't mind we try to move forward. I just don't like people saying colonialism also had good sides.


Do we have anything to do with colonialism? Or our parents? Maybe at the generation of our grandparents who might have fought in wars against independence...

I don't feel sorry for things I'm not part of for people who didn't suffer those things directly.
Just as I don't expect germans from our generation or our parent's generation to feel sorry about anything. We are not responsible for our ancestor's actions. We can't judge our ancestor's action from the prism of the 21st century either it makes no sense.

I'd rather think "here is a problem we're partly responsible for, how can we help fix it?" And I think that it is what most colonizing states have been doing in the past few years.
Colonized states should stop whinning and blame it all on colonization and trying to make us feel guilty.
Gaul was colonized by the Roman empire, how the f*ck can that not be seen as an asset for modern France? Are we holding romans accountable for anything?
History is a succession of invasions and "colonizations". Get over it.


What about people who do suffer because of their parents' and grand parents' skin? Do you have empathy for them?
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby betiko on Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:01 am

I would have empathy for them, and even more after they share their personal story, but just as I would from people colonized by the UK or the netherlands or whatever. Guilt? None. And if they tried to make me feel guilty I'd stop caring.
I wouldn't try to make people from other countries guilty because my grandparents lost parents and siblings during world wars.
It's a good thing to learn from your past, being obsessed by it and always use it as an excuse for not going forward is another thing.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby Donelladan on Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:20 am

Please, again, my only problem with your earlier comment was you claiming colonialism had good sides too.

I didn't ask you to apologize for French colonization.

I do think we should, and I was happy when Macron did, even if he did it before being president.

I am happy you mentionned germans btw, you do know they apologized for the holocaust ? And many germans still feel sorry, germans from our generations too.

When there is a wound between two countries, we can ignore it or try to fix it. The first way to reconciliation is to acknowledge what we did, and maybe also to apologize for it.
You think it's over. Good to know, but maybe some of the countries that have been colonized aren't over it yet and would welcome the apology. It could be a way to move forward for a better future with better relationship between our countries.

Also it's not really a secret French government have been interfering in politics of our old colonies up to now ( not long after colonization we even had french mercenaries helping making coup in some Africa countries, hopefully we don't do that ) But sure, they probably already forget it ...

Roman empire, you can't compare. That was really different in so many ways. But mainly it's not as recent and it does matter a lot.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby Symmetry on Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:26 am

betiko wrote:I would have empathy for them, and even more after they share their personal story, but just as I would from people colonized by the UK or the netherlands or whatever. Guilt? None. And if they tried to make me feel guilty I'd stop caring.
I wouldn't try to make people from other countries guilty because my grandparents lost parents and siblings during world wars.
It's a good thing to learn from your past, being obsessed by it and always use it as an excuse for not going forward is another thing.


Who do you think is using history as an excuse?
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby iAmCaffeine on Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:25 pm

This isn't the World Cup anymore.
2dimes wrote:Putting the ass in Ascension.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby Symmetry on Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:35 pm

iAmCaffeine wrote:This isn't the World Cup anymore.


Don't be an idiot, This is prep for the next wold cup.

It's coming home.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby waauw on Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:33 pm

Symmetry wrote:
betiko wrote:I would have empathy for them, and even more after they share their personal story, but just as I would from people colonized by the UK or the netherlands or whatever. Guilt? None. And if they tried to make me feel guilty I'd stop caring.
I wouldn't try to make people from other countries guilty because my grandparents lost parents and siblings during world wars.
It's a good thing to learn from your past, being obsessed by it and always use it as an excuse for not going forward is another thing.


Who do you think is using history as an excuse?


Off the top of my head I'd say Robert Mugabe is one who does/did.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby Hooch on Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:28 am

Football is a good thing.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby nietzsche on Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:22 pm

nietzsche wrote:Image


called it during the group stage.


They became unbearably cocky. The theguardian comment section was really annoying.

I wish I had included back then that Jick was gonna get butthurt over it and foe me and the llama for my comments and then repeat every 12 hours in GC that he has us foed and it's the best decision he ever made in his life. And then *crickets*. And then *more crickets*

THen it would've been a very impressive prediction.
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Re: 2018 World Cup in Russia

Postby iAmCaffeine on Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:41 pm

I mean if you're gonna constantly annoy someone then what's wrong with them foeing you? That's what it's for and your actions now are no more mature or better than his. Kids be petty.
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