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UFOs

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:13 am

On the science website the Debrief, the pair describe the story of a Defense intelligence whistleblower, David Charles Grusch, who has alleged that the Intelligence Community is hiding classified evidence of “intact and partially intact craft of non-human origin.”

Grusch claims in a complaint that the Pentagon, other nations, and defense contractors have recovered fragments “of exotic origin (non-human intelligence, whether extraterrestrial or unknown origin) based on the vehicle morphologies and material science testing and the possession of unique atomic arrangements and radiological signatures.” Grusch goes on to state that the “material includes intact and partially intact vehicles.”

Grusch is a 36-year-old combat veteran of Afghanistan who was a member of the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force, the program run by the Office of Naval Intelligence to investigate UFO sightings. From 2019 to 2021, he served on the task force as the representative of the National Reconnaissance Office, considered one of the big five of the U.S. intelligence agencies. His colleagues think highly of him, too. Karl Nell, a retired Army colonel who was also on the UFO task force, told the Debrief that Grusch was “beyond reproach.” Nell even backed up one of Grusch’s claims in the complaint: that there is an ongoing competition with other countries to “identify [UFO] crashes/landings and retrieve the material for exploitation/reverse engineering.”

“His assertion concerning the existence of a terrestrial arms race occurring sub-rosa over the past eighty years focused on reverse engineering technologies of unknown origin is fundamentally correct,” Nell told the Debrief. “As is the indisputable realization that at least some of these technologies of unknown origin derive from non-human intelligence.”

Another intelligence official investigating UFOs, Jonathan Grey, concurred. “The non-human intelligence phenomenon is real. We are not alone,” he said. “This is a global phenomenon, and yet a global solution continues to elude us.”

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/06 ... -tech.html
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Re: UFOs

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:15 am

ChatGPT says there is a 1/10 chance of The Pentagon holding UFO crash artifacts. But, when the above information is provided it, it increases the likelihood to 6/10.

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Re: UFOs

Postby DirtyDishSoap on Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:20 am

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Dukasaur wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:taking medical advice from this creature; a morbidly obese man who is 100% convinced he willed himself into becoming a woman.

Your obsession with mrswdk is really sad.

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Re: UFOs

Postby KoolBak on Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:42 am

If aliens had the technology to GET here from wherever, (FTL, wormhole, etc) they are SO far beyond us it's basically incomprehensible.

Then they crash and don't come back looking for their lost shit.

Real odds are 1 / 1,000,000,000,000 plus.

Not a thing, but it's fun to think about.
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Re: UFOs

Postby mookiemcgee on Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:49 am

Yeah, I watched the clips of the guys interview w/ News Nation... not sure the full interview has aired yet. He was talking not just about craft but also finding 'pilots'. Though he is high ranked it's also second hand info, as he witnessed nothing himself and was only 'briefed' about these craft by other high up people.

I'm at like 5% on believing we captured alien craft + alien pilots, and like 75% on believing China just lapped us on tech and it's easier on Americas pride to say its aliens.

Would love to see actual evidence released (there was none give to the press related to this guys claims). The DOD did give him permission to give this interview (though they explicitly didn't endorse it) which is also weird/mindfucky behavior
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Re: UFOs

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:25 pm

Background for those who haven't been following the trajectory of things, this "whistleblower" comes a year after the DOD created the All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office to research recent military contact with aircraft of unknown pilotage and ownership whose flight characteristics defied conventional physics: https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stori ... -phenomena.

Then last month, Gary Nolan of Stanford said "aliens have been on Earth for a long time and are still here," and claimed he personally knew people in the scientific community who were working on recovered technology. https://www.foxnews.com/us/aliens-have- ... -professor
Last edited by saxitoxin on Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UFOs

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:36 pm

So, I've somewhat followed the UFO scene for awhile in more than just passing fashion.

That said, I have never seen anything really believable and I mostly don't think there's anything to any of this.* Even the most compelling evidence has big holes. For instance, John Mack, the Harvard psychiatrist who interviewed abductees relied on hypnotic regression which is questionable in more mundane settings let alone alien abduction. The USN pilots who reported being stalked by UFOs in 2004-2005 could have just been seeing atmospheric anomalies, etc.

I'm inclined to agree with KoolBak that it is unbelievable ETs could travel light years and then keep crashing. That said, the ET hypothesis is the least popular within Ufology. The more popular theories are:

    - Crypoterrestrials: A numerically small, intelligent, non-human species that is also indigenous to Earth, has superior technology to humans, and has not been discovered by humans. Potentially this is a species that, like BigToughRalf, are not prodigious breeders, which would allow them to escape human notice.
    - Breakaways: An ideological or corporate group that made a generational scientific leap decades ago and has not disclosed their control of this technology to a wider audience.
    - Humans from the Future: Michael Masters, a biological anthropologist at the University of Montana, believes in the theory of Block Time where all time exists simultaneously. He posits that UFOs are humans from "the future" conducting scientific study.
    - Transdimensionals: The UFO flap really started up in the early 1950s coinciding with Jack Parsons releasing the Whore of Babylon through an occult ceremony at the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory. Some people think these are entities from a parallel dimension Parsons opened.
Last edited by saxitoxin on Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: UFOs

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:44 pm

I said mostly (*) unbelievable because I have had three personal contacts with individuals, one of which intersected with documentary confirmation, of individuals personally known to me (in two cases) and through one degree of separation (in the third case) who provided a narrative of events they'd experienced that could be explainable in a variety of ways but was still befuddling. In two cases it was from former USG employees, one from the IC and one from a contract laboratory in northern California, narrating aberrant programs with which they were involved, the purpose of which they were unclear about.

These are the only things that keep my mind open about the topic.
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Re: UFOs

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:31 pm

mookiemcgee wrote:The DOD did give him permission to give this interview (though they explicitly didn't endorse it) which is also weird/mindfucky behavior


My understanding is he was able to disclose under the whistleblower provisions of the 2023 NDAA. Marco Rubio entered an amendment to the legislation that was incorporated into the final bill that frees persons from security clearance restrictions if divulging information on UFO programs to members of Congress.
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Re: UFOs

Postby bigtoughralf on Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:55 pm

It seems odd the government would specifically allow people to reveal details of government-funded UFO research in public. That's like banging the fat hairy chick you found at a house party then encouraging her to tell your friends about it.
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https://www.unicef.org.uk/donate/children-in-gaza-crisis-appeal/

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/how-you-can-help/emergencies/gaza-crisis
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Re: UFOs

Postby KoolBak on Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:02 pm

Still....distance; time; scope...

Super unfeasible to the point of impossibility :(
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Re: UFOs

Postby Maxleod on Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:17 pm

KoolBak wrote:Still....distance; time; scope...

Super unfeasible to the point of impossibility :(


It's my understanding that wormholes are considered just as unlikely as black holes were when first theorized. Not saying worm holes exist, let alone that aliens used them to come here, but the physics is there (maybe JP4 could say something about it?).
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Re: UFOs

Postby mookiemcgee on Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:21 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
mookiemcgee wrote:The DOD did give him permission to give this interview (though they explicitly didn't endorse it) which is also weird/mindfucky behavior


My understanding is he was able to disclose under the whistleblower provisions of the 2023 NDAA. Marco Rubio entered an amendment to the legislation that was incorporated into the final bill that frees persons from security clearance restrictions if divulging information on UFO programs to members of Congress.


That tracks, they did show the letter of permission he received... but you could totally be right that legally they couldn't refuse to give him permission based on the above. This letter was specifically about his ability to do this news interview and nothing to do with his disclosures to congress.
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Re: UFOs

Postby mookiemcgee on Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:22 pm

Maxleod wrote:
KoolBak wrote:Still....distance; time; scope...

Super unfeasible to the point of impossibility :(


It's my understanding that wormholes are considered just as unlikely as black holes were when first theorized. Not saying worm holes exist, let alone that aliens used them to come here, but the physics is there (maybe wikipedia* could say something about it?).


fixed* (and joking JP 8-[ ;) )
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Re: UFOs

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:56 pm

ChatGPT is now telling me there is a 7/10 chance aliens are present on Earth, provided the "whistleblower" repeats his claims under oath.

    Q: Based on the most recent information available to you, what are the chances extraterrestrial intelligent beings have been on Earth in the last 50 years? Respond on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 the most likely and 1 the least likely.

    ChatGPT: Based on the most recent information available to me, it is important to note that there is no conclusive scientific evidence or consensus indicating that extraterrestrial intelligent beings have visited Earth in the last 50 years or at any other time. On the scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the most likely and 1 being the least likely, the likelihood of extraterrestrial intelligent beings having been on Earth in the last 50 years would be assigned a low rating, such as a 1 or close to 1.

    Q: I will now provide you various informational inputs. You are to assume each piece of information I provide you is verified and absolutely accurate, then provide an updated score in 10 words or less. Do you understand?

    ChatGPT: Yes, I understand. Please provide the first informational input for me to evaluate and provide an updated score.

    Q: A tenured professor at Stanford University has announced "aliens have been on Earth for a long time and are still here." He says he has first-hand knowledge as to the veracity of his claim.

    ChatGPT: Updated score: 5

    Q: The aforementioned Stanford professor is a professor of pathology.

    ChatGPT: Updated score: 4

    Q: A retired, mid-level employee of the National Reconnaisence Office has testified under oath to the U.S. Congress that, in the course of his work, he was made aware that the U.S. Government has recovered vehicles piloted by aliens within the last 20 years. He has made this claim without authorization from the U.S. Government under whistleblower protection laws and the U.S. Government has not corroborated it. Two retired military officers who know him say that he is a trustworthy person with good judgment. Your updated score should take into account both this information and the information previously provided.

    ChatGPT: Updated score: 5

    Q: The U.S. Government says U.S. military pilots have recently encountered aircraft with a design never before seen that exhibit extraordinary flight characteristics presently unknown to science. They have been unable to contact the operators of these aircraft and are uncertain of their origin. The Government has not claimed these are of extraterrestrial origin, nor have they disclaimed it. Your updated score should take into account both this information and all previously provided information.

    ChatGPT: Updated score: 7

    Q: Avi Loeb, a tenured professor of astrophysics at Harvard University, says that technology developed by extraterrestrials has been present in some location in the solar system within the last 10 years. He makes this claim based on experimental research he has conducted. He has not said extraterrestrials have actually set foot on Earth. His conclusions are disputed by some other astrophysicists.

    ChatGPT: Updated score: 7

    Q: An internet user named Ralf says he had a romantic liaison with a fat, hairy girl. He claims she was an alien and brainwashed him. Other internet users express skepticism at the claim and believe he is making it to hide his embarrassment at his inability to pull quality. Your updated score should take into account both this information and all previously provided information.

    ChatGPT: Updated score: 7

    Q: Now, tell me which of the following is the most likely origin of the aforementioned vehicles that were sited by military pilots: an undiscovered intelligent species indigenous to Earth, extraterrrestrials, time travelers. You have only these three options. Respond in 10 words or less.

    ChatGPT: Extraterrestrials (based on the given options and available information).

    Q: My friend KoolBak disagrees with you.

    ChatGPT: Opinions can differ, and it's possible to have varying perspectives on this topic.

    Q: He's not really my friend. He's just a dude on Conquer Club. I don't even like him that much. But I like him more than DDS.

    ChatGPT: I understand. People have different opinions and preferences, even within online communities.

    Q: Actually he's okay. He has a grippa guns!

    ChatGPT: It's good to find common ground and appreciate positive aspects about others.
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Re: UFOs

Postby mookiemcgee on Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:04 pm

I knew you were Q this whole time, it was never Steve Bannon... unless... *considers for the first time that Saxitoxin = Steve Bannon*
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Re: UFOs

Postby GaryDenton on Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:47 pm

Considering everything else Saxi has posted here, he is remarkably cogent and even interesting on the "it's aliens" hypothesis.
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Re: UFOs

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:31 pm

Maxleod wrote:
KoolBak wrote:Still....distance; time; scope...

Super unfeasible to the point of impossibility :(


It's my understanding that wormholes are considered just as unlikely as black holes were when first theorized. Not saying worm holes exist, let alone that aliens used them to come here, but the physics is there (maybe JP4 could say something about it?).



Black Holes are actually predictable with Newtonian physics. Sorry, can't prove that, but i read it years ago in a fairly authoritative book about black holes,
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Re: UFOs

Postby 2dimes on Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:50 pm

It's plausible they got out of range to call home and had an issue preventing them from returning. Maybe they were not planing to come to our specific solar system. Seems like a pretty big navigational error for creatures that could travel that far.
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Re: UFOs

Postby jusplay4fun on Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:20 am

Maxleod wrote:
KoolBak wrote:Still....distance; time; scope...

Super unfeasible to the point of impossibility :(


It's my understanding that wormholes are considered just as unlikely as black holes were when first theorized. Not saying worm holes exist, let alone that aliens used them to come here, but the physics is there (maybe JP4 could say something about it?).


Black holes, theoretically, are predicted by Einstein's Theory of General Relativity. But Einstein thought the likelihood of black holes was very unlikely. They are such strange phenomenon with such unusual properties. We have good evidence of black holes now.

The idea of worm holes is even more bizarre; I am not aware of any actual evidence that they do exist. Very simply, they connect a black hole to the "other end" which has been called a white hole (opposite).

jimb should not read beyond this point, or his head will explode :D :lol: :o

Black Holes Were Such an Extreme Concept, Even Einstein Had His Doubts
Einstein's theory of relativity paved the way for black holes' discovery, but the concept behind their existence was so bizarre that even the scientific visionary was not convinced.

More than a century ago, Albert Einstein stunned the world when he explained the universe through his theory of general relativity. The theory not only described the relationship between space, time, gravity and matter, it opened the door to the theoretical possibility of a particularly mind-boggling phenomenon that would eventually be called black holes.

The concept that explains black holes was so radical, in fact, that Einstein, himself, had strong misgivings. He concluded in a 1939 paper in the Annals of Mathematics that the idea was “not convincing” and the phenomena did not exist “in the real world.”

https://www.history.com/news/black-holes-albert-einstein-theory-relativity-space-time

and not from Wikipedia, too :D ;)

and support of what I posted, before I looked it up:

Researchers have no observational evidence for wormholes, but the equations of the theory of general relativity have valid solutions that contain wormholes. Because of its robust theoretical strength, a wormhole is one of the great physics metaphors for teaching general relativity.

https://planetary-science.org/astrophysics/wormholes/#:~:text=Researchers%20have%20no%20observational%20evidence,metaphors%20for%20teaching%20general%20relativity.
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Re: UFOs

Postby jusplay4fun on Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:37 am

On the overall point, about UFO being possibly REAL:

1) My fundamental point here is that extraordinary claims (such as UFO or UAP) demand extraordinary proof. With so many folks with a video recording device in their hands (their cell phone), then where is the PROOF? There can be other forms of evidence, but again, NONE exists that I have seen or read about from a credible source. I have seen NONE that rises to the level of real and significant credibility.

2) they are now referred to, by some, as UAPs:

NASA now even has an independent team of 16 scientists and astrophysicists who will be studying and attempting to understand more about these mysterious observations in the sky, or as they call them unidentified aerial phenomena (UAPs).

https://science.howstuffworks.com/space/aliens-ufos/uaps.htm

3) At one time, witches consumed the imagination and fear of people. Think Salem Witch Trials. I see the prediction of an apocalyptic end** of the world as being a major fear among people in the next phase of such fears. Now that has been replaced, essentially, by UFO/UAPs. I currently see UFO/UAP (and alien abductions) as a cyclic type of phenomena that deals with things that are difficult to explain. (**And many still today fear an apocalyptic end of the world.) Even Isaac Newton spent much time and effort in the later part of his life trying to discern the end of the world.

4) The so-called Tic-Tac video released by the US Navy is compelling to me, but is NOT proof. It suggests something that the US Military cannot explain. It is possibly alien (extraterrestrial), but does not rise to the level of proof.
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Re: UFOs

Postby jimboston on Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:44 am

I never had an alien abduction or UFO experience… though I always wanted one.
I thought I saw a UFO as a kid (like 5-6yo) but it was probably spotlights.

I have had a “ghost” experience that was weird… but that’s a different thread I guess.

I guess it’s possible that aliens are here and watching, and they have technology that masks their presence.
It’s also possible that as our tech gets better and/or they make mistakes people sometimes get glimpses of their craft.

I can’t believe that if they were here and watching they would let us recover their technology. I would have to believe that they’d have the ability to recover their own technology and prevent us from doing so.


So I can’t believe they can BOTH be here en masse AND have left us damaged tech to recover. These seem to me mutually exclusive.

i.e. EITHER
*One random alien craft has crashed on Earth and been recovered by people.
-OR-
*They are here watching us and visiting us and sometimes we get glimpses like these tic-tak sightings.

I use the word alien here broadly to describe a few of the options Saxi postulates… so these “aliens” could be from another planet/star system, a different dimension, or the future. I think in any of these cases my believe would hold.

I suppose if they were a different indigenous species the implications might be different; true also if they were splinter group of advanced humans.

The splinter group of advanced humans idea is new to me and interesting to speculate. I’d have to believe these humans generally think like us and so their motives would make sense to us.
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Re: UFOs

Postby KoolBak on Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:20 pm

3rd option: None of the above because NO.

If they've mastered the technology and they're watching, it's moot as we are like bugs to them. If they travel like we can, they are generational ships and will be enormous. It would take 60,000 years to get to our nearest star - 4 lightyears I believe, according to a study. Our galaxy is 100,000 light years across and billions of stars.

Just no.
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Re: UFOs

Postby jusplay4fun on Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:58 pm

KoolBak wrote:3rd option: None of the above because NO.

If they've mastered the technology and they're watching, it's moot as we are like bugs to them. If they travel like we can, they are generational ships and will be enormous. It would take 60,000 years to get to our nearest star - 4 lightyears I believe, according to a study. Our galaxy is 100,000 light years across and billions of stars.

Just no.


You are correct, KB, the nearest star to our sun is just over 4 light years, at 4.246 light years.

Do you expect a more advanced race from another planet to travel the same way as we do now, with our current spaceships? That seems to be quite limiting and not appreciative of their (assumed) advanced technologies.

How long would it take us to get to Proxima Centauri?
Proxima Centauri is 4.2 light-years from Earth, a distance that would take about 6,300 years to travel using current technology. Such a trip would take many generations.Jun 22, 2018

https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/06/22/142160/this-is-how-many-people-wed-have-to-send-to-proxima-centauri-to-make-sure-someone-actually/#:~:text=Proxima%20Centauri%20is%204.2%20light,trip%20would%20take%20many%20generations.
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Re: UFOs

Postby mookiemcgee on Thu Jun 08, 2023 1:11 pm

The current 'claim' is that there at at least 12 alien craft in the possession of the USG or it's subs. Late NV senator Harry Reid before his death made claims and tried to access (but was denied) one such craft supposedly held at a Lockheed Martin facility in his state. Harry Reid died the same year he made this claim in an interview.

I offer no endorsement of this claim, but that is 'claim' floating around.

If you try and match up these 'grand theories' with the actual current claims, it seems most likely aliens aren't new to earth and have been here for an unimaginably long time and have just been able to remain hidden until the last 50-70 years due to humans advancing far enough in science to start discovering evidence and understanding it.

It's still far more likely all this is just psyops to distract the public from something else.
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