Conquer Club

Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderator: Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Woodruff on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:03 pm

Augustus Maximus wrote:Unions were an extremely necessary association when they were first formed. They did do a great deal to make working in the United States a great deal better. The bad thing about Unions today is that they seem to have lost their way. It appears that they have forgotten the core mission of a union is to protect the worker, both short term and long term. Too often they take positions that ignore the long term implications. Often it also seems that they really don't look out for the membership, but for their own ends. Because of this they have fallen out of favour, and are a target, sometimes legitimately.


I agree with you. In the beginning, unions were absolutely necessary. I do believe they are still very relevant and necessary. But you're right in that, far too often, they become an end unto themselves rather than a means for taking care of the workers.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 5093
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:04 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Augustus Maximus wrote:Unions were an extremely necessary association when they were first formed. They did do a great deal to make working in the United States a great deal better. The bad thing about Unions today is that they seem to have lost their way. It appears that they have forgotten the core mission of a union is to protect the worker, both short term and long term. Too often they take positions that ignore the long term implications. Often it also seems that they really don't look out for the membership, but for their own ends. Because of this they have fallen out of favour, and are a target, sometimes legitimately.


I agree with you. In the beginning, unions were absolutely necessary. I do believe they are still very relevant and necessary. But you're right in that, far too often, they become an end unto themselves rather than a means for taking care of the workers.

Except that is a problem of bad unions, not that there are unions. Reform of unions is one thing, busting them is not.
Corporal PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 3085
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Woodruff on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:07 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Augustus Maximus wrote:Unions were an extremely necessary association when they were first formed. They did do a great deal to make working in the United States a great deal better. The bad thing about Unions today is that they seem to have lost their way. It appears that they have forgotten the core mission of a union is to protect the worker, both short term and long term. Too often they take positions that ignore the long term implications. Often it also seems that they really don't look out for the membership, but for their own ends. Because of this they have fallen out of favour, and are a target, sometimes legitimately.


I agree with you. In the beginning, unions were absolutely necessary. I do believe they are still very relevant and necessary. But you're right in that, far too often, they become an end unto themselves rather than a means for taking care of the workers.


Except that is a problem of bad unions, not that there are unions. Reform of unions is one thing, busting them is not.


Of course. I don't believe that Augustus Maximus was at all advocating union-busting as a proper methodology.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 5093
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:07 pm

better the public unions than the state

:D
Last edited by Phatscotty on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Woodruff on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:08 pm

Phatscotty wrote:better the unions than the state
:D


So you really don't believe in the free market, then? Because union-busting is not the free market in action.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 5093
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby john9blue on Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:50 pm

"americans hate you, republicans! quit working for the corporate elite and start paying attention the the average joe!"

* republicans get elected into office again by average americans in a democratic election *

"yeah well, americans are stupid anyway"
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1268
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby HapSmo19 on Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:57 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:better the unions than the state
:D


So you really don't believe in the free market, then? Because union-busting is not the free market in action.


......mmmmmmmMMMMMMMbullshit!
User avatar
Lieutenant HapSmo19
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 4:30 pm
Location: Willamette Valley

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:54 pm

I wonder how Wisconsin is going to be sitting in the coming round of rating downgrades from SnP for state debt?

Perhaps Scott Walker is a freakin genius?
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:28 am

HapSmo19 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:better the unions than the state
:D


So you really don't believe in the free market, then? Because union-busting is not the free market in action.


......mmmmmmmMMMMMMMbullshit!


Why is that bullshit? Unions are as much of a free market force as corporations. The problem comes from when the union is a union of state employees; I would argue that a union of state employees has little to do with the free market. I have no problem at all with unions. I have a big problem with government worker unions and the amount of control they have over government. And I have a big problem with non-government worker unions' control of government. But I also have a problem with corporate control of government (which is arguably a much more important issue than union control... at the federal level at least).
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:53 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
HapSmo19 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:better the public unions than the state
:D


So you really don't believe in the free market, then? Because union-busting is not the free market in action.


......mmmmmmmMMMMMMMbullshit!


Why is that bullshit? Unions are as much of a free market force as corporations. The problem comes from when the union is a union of state employees; I would argue that a union of state employees has little to do with the free market. I have no problem at all with unions. I have a big problem with government worker unions and the amount of control they have over government. And I have a big problem with non-government worker unions' control of government. But I also have a problem with corporate control of government (which is arguably a much more important issue than union control... at the federal level at least).


because I wasn't even talking about the free market or union busting? (woodruffs usual)
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Woodruff on Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:56 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
HapSmo19 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:better the public unions than the state
:D


So you really don't believe in the free market, then? Because union-busting is not the free market in action.


......mmmmmmmMMMMMMMbullshit!


Why is that bullshit? Unions are as much of a free market force as corporations. The problem comes from when the union is a union of state employees; I would argue that a union of state employees has little to do with the free market. I have no problem at all with unions. I have a big problem with government worker unions and the amount of control they have over government. And I have a big problem with non-government worker unions' control of government. But I also have a problem with corporate control of government (which is arguably a much more important issue than union control... at the federal level at least).


because I wasn't even talking about the free market or union busting? (woodruffs usual)


In your usual dishonesty, you have now actually changed your quote (look at mine, it's the accurate one to which I was responding). Given that, you don't believe my question was a relevant one? I absolutely believe it was relevant.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 5093
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Woodruff on Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:57 pm

HapSmo19 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:better the unions than the state
:D


So you really don't believe in the free market, then? Because union-busting is not the free market in action.


......mmmmmmmMMMMMMMbullshit!


It absolutely is not bullshit. How are unions not a part of the free market in action?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 5093
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Nobunaga on Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:25 pm

Woodruff wrote:
HapSmo19 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:better the unions than the state
:D


So you really don't believe in the free market, then? Because union-busting is not the free market in action.


......mmmmmmmMMMMMMMbullshit!


It absolutely is not bullshit. How are unions not a part of the free market in action?


... I believe that they are... until they attach themselves to government. After that they become anathema to it.

... Let them organize and compete on a level playing field (... and get they arses beat).

...
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Nobunaga
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:09 am
Location: West of Osaka

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Woodruff on Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:31 pm

Nobunaga wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
HapSmo19 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:better the unions than the state
:D


So you really don't believe in the free market, then? Because union-busting is not the free market in action.


......mmmmmmmMMMMMMMbullshit!


It absolutely is not bullshit. How are unions not a part of the free market in action?


... I believe that they are... until they attach themselves to government. After that they become anathema to it.

... Let them organize and compete on a level playing field (... and get they arses beat).


I'm not one that has a problem with unions at the governmental level, but I can absolutely understand this perspective (I believe thegreekdog shares it). I don't really have a strong disagreement with it, it's really just a personal perspective that makes me disagree rather than something particularly tangible.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 5093
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Nobunaga on Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:16 pm

... Certainly unions are part of the free market. It is, after all, a FREE market. Let companies unionize if they feel it is to their best advantage, and let them compete in the market place.

... Odds are, if the field is truly level, they will lose, but it is not a given.

...
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Nobunaga
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:09 am
Location: West of Osaka

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby john9blue on Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:52 pm

Nobunaga wrote:... Certainly unions are part of the free market. It is, after all, a FREE market. Let companies unionize if they feel it is to their best advantage, and let them compete in the market place.

... Odds are, if the field is truly level, they will lose, but it is not a given.

...


but... but... unions = bad and free market = good! what is this nonsense
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
Army of GOD wrote:the term heterosexual is offensive. I prefer to be called "normal"
(proud member of the Occasionally Wrongly Banned)
User avatar
Captain john9blue
 
Posts: 1268
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: FlutterChi-town

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:11 am

Nobunaga wrote:... Certainly unions are part of the free market. It is, after all, a FREE market. Let companies unionize if they feel it is to their best advantage, and let them compete in the market place.

... Odds are, if the field is truly level, they will lose, but it is not a given.

...


Woodruff - I agree with this. I think the government's interference in corporate-employee relations should be limited to allowing employees to unionize (I happen to think any and all employees should unionize - including lawyers, accountants, engineers, and the like) and enforcing union abilities to strike. Apart from that the government needs to stay out. Don't like that airline employees are striking? Stay away. Don't like that Verizon employees are on strike? Leave it alone.

On the other hand, when it comes to state employees, I'm not sure unionization is the proper way to go about things.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:14 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Certainly unions are part of the free market. It is, after all, a FREE market. Let companies unionize if they feel it is to their best advantage, and let them compete in the market place.

... Odds are, if the field is truly level, they will lose, but it is not a given.

...


Woodruff - I agree with this. I think the government's interference in corporate-employee relations should be limited to allowing employees to unionize (I happen to think any and all employees should unionize - including lawyers, accountants, engineers, and the like) and enforcing union abilities to strike. Apart from that the government needs to stay out. Don't like that airline employees are striking? Stay away. Don't like that Verizon employees are on strike? Leave it alone.

On the other hand, when it comes to state employees, I'm not sure unionization is the proper way to go about things.

I agree, except when it comes to specific safety bits. Sorry, but don't think unionization would work in the military.

I am on the fence regarding air traffic controllers. Doctors and nurses, no.. but that is one of many reasons to make those more public, but with specific rules to protect them. (and therein is a definite contradiction, one I don't really know how to get around).

BUT.. attorney's.. no way! :twisted: Seriously, in truth attorneys are effectively unionized already in that they can pretty well fight for whatever they want.. and other attorneys are not going to oppose things benefitting them all. That is, it is one group that doesn't need a union because their abilities to get what they want/need are inherent in their profession.
Corporal PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 3085
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:57 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:That is, it is one group that doesn't need a union because their abilities to get what they want/need are inherent in their profession.


This is not true at all (and no more true than a steelworker being able to hire an attorney). If I have a conflict with my firm, my choices are limited to either doing what I can do (which is the same as a steelworker as I know as much about employment law as a steel worker) or hiring an employment attorney.

If any group of workers need to unionize, it's big firm attorneys. They are consistently abused and required to work unsafe hours.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Woodruff on Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:51 am

Nobunaga wrote:... Certainly unions are part of the free market. It is, after all, a FREE market. Let companies unionize if they feel it is to their best advantage, and let them compete in the market place.


"Companies" do not unionize. Period. Companies are forced to accept unionization of their employees (or some of their employees), but I've never known a company itself to voluntarily unionize (that I can think of).
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 5093
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby rockfist on Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:00 pm

The government should have the ability to enforce some REASONABLE safety laws. The problem is IMO that too often the government is not reasonable.
User avatar
Brigadier rockfist
 
Posts: 2177
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:17 pm
Location: On the Wings of Death.
3222

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:45 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:That is, it is one group that doesn't need a union because their abilities to get what they want/need are inherent in their profession.


This is not true at all (and no more true than a steelworker being able to hire an attorney). If I have a conflict with my firm, my choices are limited to either doing what I can do (which is the same as a steelworker as I know as much about employment law as a steel worker) or hiring an employment attorney.

If any group of workers need to unionize, it's big firm attorneys. They are consistently abused and required to work unsafe hours.

I know, I was mostly joking. ergo the :twisted:
Corporal PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 3085
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Nobunaga on Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:28 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Nobunaga wrote:... Certainly unions are part of the free market. It is, after all, a FREE market. Let companies unionize if they feel it is to their best advantage, and let them compete in the market place.


"Companies" do not unionize. Period. Companies are forced to accept unionization of their employees (or some of their employees), but I've never known a company itself to voluntarily unionize (that I can think of).


... I understand this, but a company still has a choice. Accept it, or move to another location (I once worked at a company, just summer work, mind, that hauled arse to Mexico when the place voted to unionize).

... Moving cost money, but it saves a lot in the long term. That is what I mean by "choosing to unionize".

...
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Nobunaga
 
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:09 am
Location: West of Osaka

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:38 pm

Woodruff wrote:How are unions not a part of the free market in action?


Woodruff wrote:Companies are forced to accept unionization of their employees


Boom. Free market
User avatar
Major Phatscotty
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

Postby Woodruff on Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:29 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:How are unions not a part of the free market in action?

Woodruff wrote:Companies are forced to accept unionization of their employees


Boom. Free market


You didn't really counter anything nor answer the question. Would you care to try?
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class Woodruff
 
Posts: 5093
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:15 am

PreviousNext

Return to Acceptable Content

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users