Europe in Crisis

[barackattack]

Greek: statism and capitalism aren't opposing concepts. As I said, China combines both.

Stalin: last I checked the US isn't in recession. It's in period of slow growth.

We aren't talking about 'flooding the market with cheap money' - we're talking about giving insolvent banks/governments the money to prevent their total collapse. This is a completely different scenario to attempting to boost a struggling economy. This is providing a lifeline to an otherwise doomed institution.

[thegreekdog]

Greek: statism and capitalism aren't opposing concepts. As I said, China combines both.

Yes. And? Your two sentences answers confuse me.

[pimpdave]

[thegreekdog]

This is providing a lifeline to an otherwise doomed institution.

Wow, your rhetoric is impressive.

A short play by thegreekdog

Scene One - Circa 2008/2009

Inside the halls of Congress, two men meet. One is in tears.

Bank Executive: OH NOES! WE'RE DOOMED! I WON'T BE ABLE TO BUY THAT SECOND YACHT WITHOUT THE BAILOUT CASH!"

Sentor Smarney Grank [Boston accent]: Then we will get you that bailout sir. After all, if you aren't bailed out, our economy will suffer a recession from which we won't recover for five or more years.

Bank Executive: Oh thank you Senator Grank. This will help us rebuild our esteemed financial institution. Please accept this campaign donation from me. I'm sure the other bank executives will donate as well!

Senator Smarney Grank [Boston accent]: That's great. sotto voce Just so you know, in the media I'm going to attack you and others like you. Then I'm going to propose new laws along with my friend Senator Mistopher Rodd. But don't worry, these new laws will have no teeth.

Bank Executive [sotto voce]: Excellent. If you want, we can help you write the laws.

Senator Smarney Grank [sotto voce]: I'll even hire some of your guys to write the regulations. It's a win-win.

End scene as Senator Grank and Bank Executive part ways.

[BigBallinStalin]

Greek: statism and capitalism aren't opposing concepts. As I said, China combines both.

Stalin: last I checked the US isn't in recession. It's in period of slow growth.

You have to compare the economic growth to the past. Surely, everything looks grand if you only pay attention to the present and forget the past.

We aren't talking about 'flooding the market with cheap money' - we're talking about giving insolvent banks/governments the money to prevent their total collapse. This is a completely different scenario to attempting to boost a struggling economy. This is providing a lifeline to an otherwise doomed institution.

Well, I was talking about the past, but it's the same effect with bailouts.

Distort the capital structure with cheap credit, and you'll build the future bust before the boom. Oh boy, here we go again... :/

This explains why I disagree with the rest of your statement.

[barackattack]

An economy growing more slowly than in the past is not an economy in recession that's like saying that when a car starts to slow down it is actually going in reverse.

A bailout isn't credit. It isn't a loan to be paid back, it's an unreciprocated transfer of money that, in this case, is helping the bank/government balance its books after an unexpected loss.

[BigBallinStalin]

An economy growing more slowly than in the past is not an economy in recession that's like saying that when a car starts to slow down it is actually going in reverse.

A bailout isn't credit. It isn't a loan to be paid back, it's an unreciprocated transfer of money that, in this case, is helping the bank/government balance its books after an unexpected loss.

In economics, a recession is a business cycle contraction, a general slowdown in economic activity.[1][2] During recessions, many macroeconomic indicators vary in a similar way. Production, as measured by gross domestic product (GDP), employment, investment spending, capacity utilization, household incomes, business profits, and inflation all fall, while bankruptcies and the unemployment rate rise.

Please explain how the US economy is not in a business cycle contraction.

Explain how the US economy is not experiencing a general slowdown in economic activity.

If you still wish to think that the US is not in a recession, then we can settle on the word "economic stagnation," which still doesn't change the basis of what I was discussing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_%28finance%29

If you still want to distort the definition, it doesn't change the cause-and-effects of my argument.



Boy, this nitpicking sure is fun. Do you care to address the substantial parts of my argument, or shall we continue playing this silly game?

[barackattack]

The GDP of the US is growing. By definition it is not in recession.

If its GDP is growing I fail to see how its economic activity can be slowing down. Maybe that's just your sector.

Since we're talking about getting back to the issue at hand: do you think statism and capitalism are opposing concepts?

[BigBallinStalin]

So, when you look at these graphs, what do you think:




















http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data


Some real growth there, amirite? A booming economy, righty right?

[BigBallinStalin]

Since we're talking about getting back to the issue at hand: do you think statism and capitalism are opposing concepts?

What do you mean be "statism" and "capitalism"?

[Lootifer]

Whats are the SGS lines? they seem way more doom and gloom.

[barackattack]

Stalin: I never said your economy was 'booming'. I said it wasn't in recession. Which those graphs shows.

The dollar indices is dropping, sure. But that's because everyone's finally realsied you're fatass, long in the tooth country that can't hack it any more. That's why they're moving to China.

[saxitoxin]

The dollar indices is dropping, sure. But that's because everyone's finally realsied you're fatass, long in the tooth country that can't hack it any more.

I think that was the word-for-word analysis for the global economic contagion that Nouriel Rabini penned in the last issue of Forbes. IIRC they included a captioned photo of Rabini humping a Kodiak bear as he detonated Roman Candles in each hand while he was saying it, in fact. Great minds.

[barackattack]

They're always quick to smear the forward thinkers. Just look at how they treated Copernicus.

[BigBallinStalin]

Stalin: I never said your economy was 'booming'. I said it wasn't in recession. Which those graphs shows.
.

Not sure if stupid or just...

In economics, a recession is a business cycle contraction, a general slowdown in economic activity.[1][2] During recessions, many macroeconomic indicators vary in a similar way. Production, as measured by gross domestic product (GDP), employment, investment spending, capacity utilization, household incomes, business profits, and inflation all fall, while bankruptcies and the unemployment rate rise.

The US is in a recession.

[BigBallinStalin]

Whats are the SGS lines? they seem way more doom and gloom.

Shadow government statistics. SGS seems to be too pessimistic, so I "divide" by 2 for most of those graphs.


The government has the strong incentive to downplay the bad and highlight the good. That's why "unemployment" in the US is at 9%. But using the Department of Labor's U6 data, unemployment is at 17%. Now, the US government does not want to report that in public--only economists and those they tell know about it.

The same goes with Fox News and mainstream media. None of them report the U6, which is odd. It's as if they're in cahoots with the government, but I'm not so certain.

[spurgistan]

To be fair, an unemployment rate of 9% is really terrible, in and of itself.

[BigBallinStalin]

To be fair, an unemployment rate of 9% is really terrible, in and of itself.

It is terrible, but it's still not an accurate number. The actual unemployment is much higher.

[Gillipig]

I was right about barackattack being a multi ! I'm glad I've stayed long enough to see him getting busted. I wonder who he used to be.

[BigBallinStalin]

I was right about barackattack being a multi ! I'm glad I've stayed long enough to see him getting busted. I wonder who he used to be.

Have you packed your bags yet?

[saxitoxin]

DATELINE: TODAY
THREAT LEVEL:11:45PM

Sources indicate France is about to display European unity toward the UK.

French officials have sought to prepare the public for the likelihood that Paris will lose its top-notch rating from S&P for the first time since 1975, playing down the potential setback and focusing attention instead on neighbouring Britain.

"The economic situation in Britain today is very worrying, and you'd rather be French than British in economic terms," Finance Minister Francois Baroin said in a radio interview, a day after Bank of France governor Christian Noyer said that if ratings agencies were even-handed, Britain deserved to be downgraded before France.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/ ... me=topNews

[notyou2]

DATELINE: TODAY
THREAT LEVEL:11:45PM

Sources indicate France is about to display European unity toward the UK.

French officials have sought to prepare the public for the likelihood that Paris will lose its top-notch rating from S&P for the first time since 1975, playing down the potential setback and focusing attention instead on neighbouring Britain.

"The economic situation in Britain today is very worrying, and you'd rather be French than British in economic terms," Finance Minister Francois Baroin said in a radio interview, a day after Bank of France governor Christian Noyer said that if ratings agencies were even-handed, Britain deserved to be downgraded before France.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/ ... me=topNews

That's petty Saxi

[saxitoxin]

DATELINE: TODAY
THREAT LEVEL:11:49PM

As Europe seeks emergency loans from the IMF to stay solvent, officials are skeptical the U.S. will provide an urgently needed foreign aid package to keep Europe afloat.

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble saw little chance of the United States increasing its contribution to the Fund to help Europe.

"Washington cannot make bilateral loans available to the IMF without Congress approving it ... and there's no chance of that and the American government has always made that clear," he told German radio.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/ ... OX20111219

[saxitoxin]

DATELINE: TODAY
THREAT LEVEL:11:50PM

Saab just collapsed

"The board of Saab Automobile ... decided that the company, without further funding, will be insolvent and that filing bankruptcy is in the best interests of its creditors."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/ ... me=topNews

[saxitoxin]

DATELINE: TODAY
THREAT LEVEL:11:52PM

Not wanting to be outdone by the U.S., the UK has announced it will also refuse to contribute funds to the EU rescue package, hammering more nails into the EU coffin. Pundits are beguiled, though, as unlike the U.S., the UK is currently laying in the coffin it's nailing shut.

British Treasury sources said Britain had decided not to contribute to an increase IMF resources. "We were clear that we would not be making a contribution," one Treasury source said, while another added that there was "no agreement on the 200 billion" euro funding boost.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/ ... me=topNews