Conquer Club

Here is a thread where we can all man-up (or lady-up) and admit that we are human. We all make mistakes.

Times that I was wrong:

• 9/11 was not an inside job. But I don't blame myself for coming to that conclusion in the wake of disinformation and lying by the 9-11 commission.
  
• I was Lutheran once. Now I am an Atheist.
  
• Virginia did not try to keep college kids from voting by forcing them to get absentee ballots. I didn't understand how absentee ballots were supposed to work. (I remember and thank Player for being nice to me and explaining 'em after she tore my argument apart. Lot's of people here would have rubbed my face in it but she was kind and simply educated me. PERMANENT RESPECT.)
  
• The Soviet Union likely would have defeated the Germans on their own, without US aid. The US did not win WWII.

I am Juan_Bottom and I have been wrong.

If this thread doesn't get at least five similar replies then you all are liars.

I don't make mistakes, mostly because I don't make decisions/choices. I leave everything open to the realm of possibility, so I can never be wrong.

If I'm completely wrong on something, and someone proves it, then I'll own up to it, instead of ignoring that person's posts, or going off-topic.

(Juan_Bottom: Your bit about the USSR and Germany is arguable and not fact).

This time I was playing a low-stakes sit-and-go hold'em, and I called two weak player's all-ins, with about half my stack, and I only had a KJ off-suit. Sure, they had 55, and 93 suited, and I won the hand, but it was a bad call.

don't think i've ever seen an american admit that the US did not win ww2. +1 internets to you, sir.

hairy potter wrote:don't think i've ever seen an american admit that the US did not win ww2. +1 internets to you, sir.

Because we lost it, right?

Army of GOD wrote:

hairy potter wrote:don't think i've ever seen an american admit that the US did not win ww2. +1 internets to you, sir.

Because we lost it, right?

well, the nazis parading down 43rd street was a bit of a clue

BigBallinStalin wrote:(Juan_Bottom: Your bit about the USSR and Germany is arguable and not fact).

I used to think that way until I read "the Third Reich at War" by Richard J. Evans. He is Regius Professor of Modern History at Cambridge University. But! by the time of the German defeat before Moscow, a lot of educated Germans knew they were in serious trouble.
1942 - leading Germans (economists and Nazi Party members) had their doubts about any kind of victory, but were afraid to say anything about it for fear of execution. They knew that they couldn't replace men or material fast enough. Indeed, the numbers on paper are impressive. 2/3rds of the German military were fighting on the Eastern front from 1942 onwards. Even after the Normandy landings... yet the Soviets kept advancing. I am aware that Stalin was asking for a second front to be opened up, and we American's obliged him, but I don't think that the Soviets had to have that happen to win the war.

I already new all of this, but I had never seen it from the German's point of view. To the smart ones, it was the beginning of Armageddon.

hairy potter wrote:don't think i've ever seen an american admit that the US did not win ww2. +1 internets to you, sir.

MY FIRST INTERNET!

Here's a link to a partial list.

search.php?author_id=8036&sr=posts

Juan_Bottom wrote:

BigBallinStalin wrote:(Juan_Bottom: Your bit about the USSR and Germany is arguable and not fact).

I used to think that way until I read "the Third Reich at War" by Richard J. Evans. He is Regius Professor of Modern History at Cambridge University. But! by the time of the German defeat before Moscow, a lot of educated Germans knew they were in serious trouble.
1942 - leading Germans (economists and Nazi Party members) had their doubts about any kind of victory, but were afraid to say anything about it for fear of execution. They knew that they couldn't replace men or material fast enough. Indeed, the numbers on paper are impressive. 2/3rds of the German military were fighting on the Eastern front from 1942 onwards. Even after the Normandy landings... yet the Soviets kept advancing. I am aware that Stalin was asking for a second front to be opened up, and we American's obliged him, but I don't think that the Soviets had to have that happen to win the war.

I already new all of this, but I had never seen it from the German's point of view. To the smart ones, it was the beginning of Armageddon.

It was bad from their point of view because they also had to plan for and deal with the Allies in the West. To say that the USSR would've defeated them on their own isn't really supported by what you posted just now. It depends on how much that author marginalized the Allies' direct and indirect influences on German planning and allocation of resources in 1942 and onwards. Also, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by having one's doubts, but Hitler had his doubts that the world would comply when he took back the Rhineland. It worked out.

As for the supply and logistical issues, yes the Germans faced plenty, but with more men on the field, they could've imprisoned/captured more Russian armies and taken more lands at a quicker pace, thus decreasing the problems of extending the war against the Russians.

The argument could be made that had the Allies' been somehow out of the entire picture (as posed in your statement), then the Germans could have dedicated nearly everything to invading the USSR, which at certain points was close to losing crucial areas--even 2/3 of their forces involved. If the Germans had that extra 30% from the beginning of the operation, I would surmise that they could've pushed the Russians past their industrially concentrated areas, past the Ural mountains, and force the Russians into leading an army incapable of supplying itself. They'd opt for a treaty, or continue at it and be starved militarily.

And if the Allies posed no problems, then the Japanese would've been more inclined to fighting the USSR, which would greatly decrease their chances of winning a war against the Axis without any Allied influence.

Conclusion: Honestly, with the limited knowledge we possess, who knows? It's just fun to talk about, but I'm wary of anyone who states that it the USSR likely could have done it on their own. It's unlikely of them to do so.

Ah, I meant that the USSR was who won WWII. The European Allies didn't really need the U.S. involved militarily to get it done. The English would have never given in, and the Russians were full of blood lust.

BigBallinStalin wrote:It was bad from their point of view because they also had to plan for and deal with the Allies in the West.

What I was specifically talking about, was that many realized that Russia and England could produce more men and materials than they could. Abert Speer, the Nazi's Minister of Armaments and War production, said that in 1942 he knew the war was lost on economic terms, because Germany could never out produce it's enemies.
Later on, this line of understanding lead to some German's attempted assasination of Hitler; "Operation Valkerie."

i didn't actually write it anywhere (until now), but the last time i was wrong on the internet was when i thought to myself: 'juan definitely did not even slightly think that his ww2 comment would be controversial'

hairy potter wrote:i didn't actually write it anywhere (until now), but the last time i was wrong on the internet was when i thought to myself: 'juan definitely did not even slightly think that his ww2 comment would be controversial'

Got you hairy!
Everything I admitted to being wrong about was controversial!

Juan_Bottom wrote:9/11 was not an inside job. But I don't blame myself for coming to that conclusion in the wake of disinformation and lying by the 9-11 commission.

I argued with everyone about this. EVERYONE, and now I took it all back.

Juan_Bottom wrote:I was Lutheran once. Now I am an Atheist.

Note that I didn't say which is wrong, leaving myself open for bashing.

Juan_Bottom wrote:Virginia did not try to keep college kids from voting by forcing them to get absentee ballots. I didn't understand how absentee ballots were supposed to work. (I remember and thank Player for being nice to me and explaining 'em after she tore my argument apart. Lot's of people here would have rubbed my face in it but she was kind and simply educated me. PERMANENT RESPECT.)

Not only did I thank Player, I said that I respect her. That's high treason to some.

Juan_Bottom wrote:The Soviet Union likely would have defeated the Germans on their own, without US aid. The US did not win WWII.

Ok, I admit though that this one worked faster than I though it would though.

i like your style

i reckon everyone who defended owenshooter should also post in this thread. about how wrong they were to defend him and his puerile avatar.

BigBallinStalin wrote:(If I'm completely wrong on something, and someone proves it, then I'll own up to it, instead of ignoring that person's posts, or going off-topic.

Hmmmm. This gives me pause. But I'll ponder it as I think about a serious ass.

BigBallinStalin wrote:(Juan_Bottom: Your bit about the USSR and Germany is arguable and not fact).

Actually something doesn't have to be fact or fiction for someone to admit they are wrong from their viewpoint.

Uhhhh, I started a thread called "f*ck Jesus" and proceeded to say the phrase about 20 times, while cursing a certain player, the mods of this site, and, of course, Jesus. I guess that was pretty wrong of me.

Reading through that first thread made me realize that my first admission had to be that my patience and tolerance has sunk.. GREATLY. Partly, its reading and seeing the same arguments over and over. Partly, it does seem that fewer and fewer people, not just here, but in general, even care about or understand evidence (of any type.. not just talking science, here). Partly, it seems that fewer and fewer folks who are not ardent conservatives persist (some, for sure, but fewer than when I first came, fewer now than when the whole BES/Fireside and then Dancing Mustard [et al] bits hit. [almost left then] Mostly, it has to do with stuff utterly irrelevant to CC. But, I cannot change anyone else, I am not in control of anyone else.. only myself.
So, in general, I have become the intolerant, beligerant poster I fought against for a long time. I am not going to change my ideas, but I will try to be less beligerent.

Regarding specifics: I cannot possibly remember, never mind list all my errors, but here are some big, recent ones:

Claiming I paid more than [] in social security a year. I misstated, meant to say I had paid more overall, having paid more years. Explained more fully , apologized, in the pertinent thread.

Woodruff -- I cannot even remember what the issue or reason was, but I wound up accusing him of saying pretty much the opposite of what he said. I admitted and posted a clarification in the pertinent thread (one of the oil spill ones, I believe).

Same thing with several other people. I need to take more time to read, answer fewer threads and think more when I do.

Oh, yes.. and I really do have to pay more attention to quotes . (but I think I am doing better on that.. )

I was wrong about that Monty Haul thing.
Thanks for reminding me about that.
I was wrong in widescreen and technicolour.

Juan_Bottom wrote:I was Lutheran once. Now I am an Atheist.

Note that I didn't say which is wrong, leaving myself open for bashing.[/quote]
Somehow, I think you expect me to respond to this .
By the time we truly know if we are correct or wrong in this, it will be too late to debate it. So, we each do the best we can.

Juan_Bottom wrote: PERMANENT RESPECT.)

Thank you. Not sure I deserve that of late, and I thank you even more for reminding me of that.

ViperOverLord wrote:Hmmmm. This gives me pause. But I'll ponder it as I think about a serious ass.

You mean yourself? You've been wrong just a few times on this site. You should have a pretty decently sized list.

they would not have been able to defeat German by themselves

targetman377 wrote:they would not have been able to defeat German by themselves

Oh, my mistake. Clearly I cannot refute this freight-train of logic which has just run wild on my points, and my understanding of what the German war czar thought based on his complete domination of German war production.