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Tea Party Defense Spending

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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:26 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Why do certain people engage in terrorism? And what are the justifications for certain terrorist organizations?

Exporting Western education and western ideals, which may be incompatible, would probably fail if the essential problems are not addressed. I don't think education would provide the lasting solution because even in the US, there are many uneducated who aren't joining terrorist groups and fighting a war against the nation.

Opportunity cost matters. Americans, even at the bottom, have a lot to lose, yet many people in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, do not. They're fighting military occupants, which was a good enough cause for the American Revolution. Others fight for their family's welfare, because it pays well to be a suicide bomber. Others fight and support such endeavors for reasons which were taught in schools--much like the US schools and society's way of supporting the "empire spirit" or "promoting nationalist pride."

Normal people resort to terrorism for one basic reason.. they feel they have no other option. However, there is another class always alive and well.. those who are so greedy they just don't care what the impact of what they do is. If those people resort to bombs, knives, etc they are considered criminals. If those people use attorneys and accountants, rhetoric tinged with disdain for any "beneath them".. then somehow they are not.

Education works. Chances for some sort of opportunity works even better, but usually that is why education is so important.

And, if you want to know the power of education.. consider that the reason groups ranging from Hammas to Al Q-aida to the Tahliban all began with educating the very poorest, the most desperate. In the case of some, boys were apparently kidnapped.

I specifically did NOT endorse "westernization". I said "moderate", respectful of Islam, etc.

The rest of what you write is your ideology and your attempt to translate it into something sensible.

BigBallinStalin wrote: Now, some of you jump, and say, "OMG, BBS, you just made our point for us! If it works here, let's export it there!" Nay, I say:

Education alone isn't the issue. A country and its people need a healthy economy in order to increase one's opportunity costs. If you make good enough money and the state and/or your community provide you with what you need, then you'd be less encourage to forego those benefits. These "problem-countries" need not only education, but also infrastructure, technology, security, legitimate courts, a non-predatory state, and other resources required to exploit more resources, provide jobs, provide opportunities, basic needs, and all that crap that individuals within developed countries find dear.
Give someone educatioin, real education.. not the stupid "wave the flag and all will be OK" that some pretend is education... and suddenly those other things tend to work themselves out.


BigBallinStalin wrote:But how does one cause that? Shall Western institutions and liberal democracies by exported by gunpoint? I'm pretty sure we agree that it shouldn't be done that way. So, shall "education" alone be exported? And then what? There's no jobs there for higher education, and the problem of security and the problem of corrupt government still remains.
We're not talking esoteric PhDs here. Its reading, basic math, how to fix things and grow things, along with yes, ideas. However, real ideas and critical thinking, not what you seem to think is a liberal education.


BigBallinStalin wrote:tl;dr Exporting education is pointless if there's no opportunity to use with the education. Healthier economies, and improving the welfare of people, begins with stability. Predatory states won't provide that, and the historical record from the 1960s to the 1990s (and probably even today) has shown that foreign intervention fails to promote this much needed stability.

So speaks someone who already has an education and who obviously has little idea of what lacking one really and truly means.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:27 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:You speak as if you know how life under the Taliban is. Would you care to enlighten us on the period before the Taliban? What's a better alternative than the Taliban in promoting stability/security?

Nope. If you cannot be bothered to even do the most basic research into what you pretend to have solutions for ... its pointless to pretend you are debating.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby Woodruff on Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:29 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:tl;dr Exporting education is pointless if there's no opportunity to use with the education. Healthier economies, and improving the welfare of people, begins with stability. Predatory states won't provide that, and the historical record from the 1960s to the 1990s (and probably even today) has shown that foreign intervention fails to promote this much needed stability.


Sure, I absolutely agree with this. Which is why infrastructure improvement is, in my opinion, as important. But we haven't bothered with that, either. Is there a cost to it? Of course there is. Would it be worth it? Long term, absolutely...both from a pragmatic and a moral standpoint. But long-term thinking isn't exactly our strong suit.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:03 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Why do certain people engage in terrorism? And what are the justifications for certain terrorist organizations?

Exporting Western education and western ideals, which may be incompatible, would probably fail if the essential problems are not addressed. I don't think education would provide the lasting solution because even in the US, there are many uneducated who aren't joining terrorist groups and fighting a war against the nation.

Opportunity cost matters. Americans, even at the bottom, have a lot to lose, yet many people in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc, do not. They're fighting military occupants, which was a good enough cause for the American Revolution. Others fight for their family's welfare, because it pays well to be a suicide bomber. Others fight and support such endeavors for reasons which were taught in schools--much like the US schools and society's way of supporting the "empire spirit" or "promoting nationalist pride."

Normal people resort to terrorism for two basic reason.. they feel they have no other option. However, there is another class always alive and well.. those who are so greedy they just don't care what the impact of what they do is. If those people resort to bombs, knives, etc they are considered criminals. If those people use attorneys and accountants, rhetoric tinged with disdain for any "beneath them".. then somehow they are not.

Education works. Chances for some sort of opportunity works even better, but usually that is why education is so important.

And, if you want to know the power of education.. consider that the reason groups ranging from Hammas to Al Q-aida to the Tahliban all began with educating the very poorest, the most desperate. In the case of some, boys were apparently kidnapped.

I specifically did NOT endorse "westernization". I said "moderate", respectful of Islam, etc.

The rest of what you write is your ideology and your attempt to translate it into something sensible.

BigBallinStalin wrote: Now, some of you jump, and say, "OMG, BBS, you just made our point for us! If it works here, let's export it there!" Nay, I say:

Education alone isn't the issue. A country and its people need a healthy economy in order to increase one's opportunity costs. If you make good enough money and the state and/or your community provide you with what you need, then you'd be less encourage to forego those benefits. These "problem-countries" need not only education, but also infrastructure, technology, security, legitimate courts, a non-predatory state, and other resources required to exploit more resources, provide jobs, provide opportunities, basic needs, and all that crap that individuals within developed countries find dear.
Give someone educatioin, real education.. not the stupid "wave the flag and all will be OK" that some pretend is education... and suddenly those other things tend to work themselves out.


BigBallinStalin wrote:But how does one cause that? Shall Western institutions and liberal democracies by exported by gunpoint? I'm pretty sure we agree that it shouldn't be done that way. So, shall "education" alone be exported? And then what? There's no jobs there for higher education, and the problem of security and the problem of corrupt government still remains.
We're not talking esoteric PhDs here. Its reading, basic math, how to fix things and grow things, along with yes, ideas. However, real ideas and critical thinking, not what you seem to think is a liberal education.


BigBallinStalin wrote:tl;dr Exporting education is pointless if there's no opportunity to use with the education. Healthier economies, and improving the welfare of people, begins with stability. Predatory states won't provide that, and the historical record from the 1960s to the 1990s (and probably even today) has shown that foreign intervention fails to promote this much needed stability.

So speaks someone who already has an education and who obviously has little idea of what lacking one really and truly means.
[/quote]

Yeah, you left out that bit about no opportunity after being educated. Like I said, there's more required than just education.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:04 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:You speak as if you know how life under the Taliban is. Would you care to enlighten us on the period before the Taliban? What's a better alternative than the Taliban in promoting stability/security?

Nope. If you cannot be bothered to even do the most basic research into what you pretend to have solutions for ... its pointless to pretend you are debating.


Oh, so you can't answer the questions?
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:12 pm

Woodruff wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:tl;dr Exporting education is pointless if there's no opportunity to use with the education. Healthier economies, and improving the welfare of people, begins with stability. Predatory states won't provide that, and the historical record from the 1960s to the 1990s (and probably even today) has shown that foreign intervention fails to promote this much needed stability.


Sure, I absolutely agree with this. Which is why infrastructure improvement is, in my opinion, as important. But we haven't bothered with that, either. Is there a cost to it? Of course there is. Would it be worth it? Long term, absolutely...both from a pragmatic and a moral standpoint. But long-term thinking isn't exactly our strong suit.


But the question should be for those involved in national security is: How can we affect a positive change in the world? How do we promote stable, liberal democracies successfully? How do we effectively curtail terrorism?

Are our current policies effectively working, and what unintended consequences are we creating?
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:17 pm

Oh, wow, look what I found. Actual Tea Party responses to cutting military spending.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrg61udK2kI
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:46 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:tl;dr Exporting education is pointless if there's no opportunity to use with the education. Healthier economies, and improving the welfare of people, begins with stability. Predatory states won't provide that, and the historical record from the 1960s to the 1990s (and probably even today) has shown that foreign intervention fails to promote this much needed stability.


Sure, I absolutely agree with this. Which is why infrastructure improvement is, in my opinion, as important. But we haven't bothered with that, either. Is there a cost to it? Of course there is. Would it be worth it? Long term, absolutely...both from a pragmatic and a moral standpoint. But long-term thinking isn't exactly our strong suit.


But the question should be for those involved in national security is: How can we affect a positive change in the world? How do we promote stable, liberal democracies successfully? How do we effectively curtail terrorism?

Are our current policies effectively working, and what unintended consequences are we creating?


The answers to these questions SHOULD be patently obvious. Our current policies clearly are not working. The unintended consequences are that we are CREATING terrorists where none previously existed. As for how to effectively curtail terrorism, that's precisely what I've been talking about above.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:52 am

Phatscotty wrote:Oh, wow, look what I found. Actual Tea Party responses to cutting military spending.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrg61udK2kI


Did you even watch the video you linked to, Phatscotty? The representatives from the Cato Institute specifically stated that the new Republican members of Congress who were brought in as Tea Partiers were still overwhelmingly in favor of increasing the military budget. In fact, they pointed out that these members were in fact overwhelmingly against even SLOWING THE RATE OF GROWTH, as the Secretary of Defense has recommended.

Good heavens, man...you could've eaten a bowl of alphabet soup and crapped a better argument for yourself than that video.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:22 am

Ummmmm Yeah....I think the idea was to listen to the "tea party response" side of it. Why do you choose to quote the guy from the Cato institute over a guy from the Tea Party? I thought you were interested in the Tea Party response? How typical! Or do you just zone out everything that doesn't fit for you. awesome.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:00 am

Phatscotty wrote:Ummmmm Yeah....I think the idea was to listen to the "tea party response" side of it. Why do you choose to quote the guy from the Cato institute over a guy from the Tea Party? I thought you were interested in the Tea Party response? How typical! Or do you just zone out everything that doesn't fit for you. awesome.


What "Joe Tea Partier" says is irrelevant, because it's all over the place. The Freedomworks guy even said that, that the response was very mixed. There is no "Tea Party position" regarding defense spending, so what one individual or one group within the Tea Party says is not meaningful.

What the ELECTED Tea Partiers DO is MEANINGFUL. That's precisely what the guy from the Cato Institute was talking about. THAT is why I listen to the guy from the Cato Institute...he is dealing with the reality, rather than with the ideology. Like I said, this video absolutely supported everything I've been saying about the Tea Party, so I appreciate you posting it very much. Thanks!

I am beginning to believe you are thoroughly enmeshed in the Dunning–Kruger effect, Phatscotty.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:33 am

Woodruff wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:tl;dr Exporting education is pointless if there's no opportunity to use with the education. Healthier economies, and improving the welfare of people, begins with stability. Predatory states won't provide that, and the historical record from the 1960s to the 1990s (and probably even today) has shown that foreign intervention fails to promote this much needed stability.


Sure, I absolutely agree with this. Which is why infrastructure improvement is, in my opinion, as important. But we haven't bothered with that, either. Is there a cost to it? Of course there is. Would it be worth it? Long term, absolutely...both from a pragmatic and a moral standpoint. But long-term thinking isn't exactly our strong suit.

It depends heavily upon the education. Too often what has passed as education from foreigners has really been politicizing. And yes, many times the states themselves are the enemy, are the biggest ones in opposition, because they know the power of education, know that they will not be able to bully a population that can think well enough to see alternatives.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:35 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Yeah, you left out that bit about no opportunity after being educated. Like I said, there's more required than just education.

No, it was there, but you seem more interesting in attacking than debating lately. Like I said, the kind of education matters.

Beyond that is something neither of you have really addressed.. natural resources. Afghanistan has plenty, which is likely our real reason for staying involved there. However, if the US has its way they will likely be sold off to wealthy investors with only minimal benefit to the people who live there... as usual.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:01 am

So, anyway, back to the thread ...

Aside from the real reason I previously enunciated as to why the U.S. can't cut defence spending (a strong U.S. military is needed to incite ongoing global unrest and drive-up the price of oil, so as to checkmate China and force their continued infusion of cash into U.S. coffers; cutting the military would also cut the Chinese cash cow and you'd be at the same place you started), a more practical reason is that 60% of U.S. defence spending goes toward military salaries and benefits.

To make a meaningful cut you'd, therefore, have to either:

    (1) cut salaries and benefits (politically unpalatable)

    (2) begin large-scale demobilization of standing forces, driving-up the short-term unemployment rate back past the 10% mark; this is a Catch-22 for, as unemployment increases, domestic stability decreases and the need for a robust armed forces for civil contingencies is heightened
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:15 am

Phatscotty wrote:Ummmmm Yeah....I think the idea was to listen to the "tea party response" side of it. Why do you choose to quote the guy from the Cato institute over a guy from the Tea Party? I thought you were interested in the Tea Party response? How typical! Or do you just zone out everything that doesn't fit for you. awesome.


Phatscotty - do you know what the Cato Institute is?

For that matter, Woodruff - do you know what the Cato Institute is?

Does anyone besides me know what the Cato Institute is?
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:20 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Ummmmm Yeah....I think the idea was to listen to the "tea party response" side of it. Why do you choose to quote the guy from the Cato institute over a guy from the Tea Party? I thought you were interested in the Tea Party response? How typical! Or do you just zone out everything that doesn't fit for you. awesome.


Phatscotty - do you know what the Cato Institute is?

For that matter, Woodruff - do you know what the Cato Institute is?

Does anyone besides me know what the Cato Institute is?


It's the group founded by OJ's friend to help AIDS babies.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:21 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Ummmmm Yeah....I think the idea was to listen to the "tea party response" side of it. Why do you choose to quote the guy from the Cato institute over a guy from the Tea Party? I thought you were interested in the Tea Party response? How typical! Or do you just zone out everything that doesn't fit for you. awesome.


Phatscotty - do you know what the Cato Institute is?

For that matter, Woodruff - do you know what the Cato Institute is?

Does anyone besides me know what the Cato Institute is?

Yes, its a conservative think tank. Conservative with some liberaterian leanings.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:38 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Ummmmm Yeah....I think the idea was to listen to the "tea party response" side of it. Why do you choose to quote the guy from the Cato institute over a guy from the Tea Party? I thought you were interested in the Tea Party response? How typical! Or do you just zone out everything that doesn't fit for you. awesome.


Phatscotty - do you know what the Cato Institute is?

For that matter, Woodruff - do you know what the Cato Institute is?

Does anyone besides me know what the Cato Institute is?

Yes, its a conservative think tank. Conservative with some liberaterian leanings.


Wrong.

EDIT - It is wrong based on the way you, Player, define conservative.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:17 am

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Ummmmm Yeah....I think the idea was to listen to the "tea party response" side of it. Why do you choose to quote the guy from the Cato institute over a guy from the Tea Party? I thought you were interested in the Tea Party response? How typical! Or do you just zone out everything that doesn't fit for you. awesome.


Phatscotty - do you know what the Cato Institute is?

For that matter, Woodruff - do you know what the Cato Institute is?

Does anyone besides me know what the Cato Institute is?

Yes, its a conservative think tank. Conservative with some liberaterian leanings.


Wrong.

EDIT - It is wrong based on the way you, Player, define conservative.

How do you think I define conservative?
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby Woodruff on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:43 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Ummmmm Yeah....I think the idea was to listen to the "tea party response" side of it. Why do you choose to quote the guy from the Cato institute over a guy from the Tea Party? I thought you were interested in the Tea Party response? How typical! Or do you just zone out everything that doesn't fit for you. awesome.


Phatscotty - do you know what the Cato Institute is?
For that matter, Woodruff - do you know what the Cato Institute is?
Does anyone besides me know what the Cato Institute is?


Of course I do. They're a libertarianesque group that deals with trying to gain limited government and free market principles. The first I heard of them was in the lead-up to the Iraq War, as they were strongly against it.
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:11 am

Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Ummmmm Yeah....I think the idea was to listen to the "tea party response" side of it. Why do you choose to quote the guy from the Cato institute over a guy from the Tea Party? I thought you were interested in the Tea Party response? How typical! Or do you just zone out everything that doesn't fit for you. awesome.


Phatscotty - do you know what the Cato Institute is?
For that matter, Woodruff - do you know what the Cato Institute is?
Does anyone besides me know what the Cato Institute is?


Of course I do. They're a libertarianesque group that deals with trying to gain limited government and free market principles. The first I heard of them was in the lead-up to the Iraq War, as they were strongly against it.


WOODRUFF WINS!

TGD HAS RULED! LONG LIVE TGD!
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:27 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Ummmmm Yeah....I think the idea was to listen to the "tea party response" side of it. Why do you choose to quote the guy from the Cato institute over a guy from the Tea Party? I thought you were interested in the Tea Party response? How typical! Or do you just zone out everything that doesn't fit for you. awesome.


Phatscotty - do you know what the Cato Institute is?
For that matter, Woodruff - do you know what the Cato Institute is?
Does anyone besides me know what the Cato Institute is?


Of course I do. They're a libertarianesque group that deals with trying to gain limited government and free market principles. The first I heard of them was in the lead-up to the Iraq War, as they were strongly against it.


WOODRUFF WINS!

TGD HAS RULED! LONG LIVE TGD!


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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:50 pm

(Dramatization of TGD ITT)
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby General_Tao on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:13 pm

saxitoxin wrote:So, anyway, back to the thread ...

Aside from the real reason I previously enunciated as to why the U.S. can't cut defence spending (a strong U.S. military is needed to incite ongoing global unrest and drive-up the price of oil, so as to checkmate China and force their continued infusion of cash into U.S. coffers; cutting the military would also cut the Chinese cash cow and you'd be at the same place you started), a more practical reason is that 60% of U.S. defence spending goes toward military salaries and benefits.

To make a meaningful cut you'd, therefore, have to either:

    (1) cut salaries and benefits (politically unpalatable)

    (2) begin large-scale demobilization of standing forces, driving-up the short-term unemployment rate back past the 10% mark; this is a Catch-22 for, as unemployment increases, domestic stability decreases and the need for a robust armed forces for civil contingencies is heightened



You`re quite wong about point #2, because the reduction in spending (hence tax burden and/or debt) that comes with reducing the military payroll would actually result in more jobs being created in the public sector. It's a basic economic fact.

Look at it this way, the multi-trillion cost of the wars has helped precipitate the current severe recession in the US, which of course has resulted in record unemployment.
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Re: Tea Party Defense Spending

Postby Timminz on Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:18 pm

General_Tao wrote:the reduction in spending (hence tax burden and/or debt) that comes with reducing the military payroll would actually result in more jobs being created in the public sector. It's a basic economic fact.


No kidding. That's the first thing they teach in every economics course. Even the upper level stuff. It gets kind of annoying after the 3rd or 4th time. I mean, shit, I'm paying good money for an education, and they keep wasting time telling me the same basic crap over, and over, and over...





..what were we talking about, again?
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