Conquer Club

Posted: **Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:23 am**

ViperOverLord wrote:The deeper motive in the middle east is not religion__ but racism. You know, the thing we pretend is a problem here is actually a problem over there.

(emphasis mine.)

Viperoverlord, can you please provide your reasoning why you consider racism not to be a problem in the united states of America?

Also, if it's "not a problem", who is forcing you to "pretend" that it is and why?

I'm really interested in hearing your point of view.

Posted: **Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:06 am**

I wonder what website he will visit, for today's exercise in copy and pasting?

Posted: **Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:29 am**

ViperOverLord wrote:The deeper motive in the middle east is not religion__ but racism. You know, the thing we pretend is a problem here is actually a problem over there.

Posted: **Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:56 pm**

ViperOverLord, where are you? I'm very curious to hear your argument.

Posted: **Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:58 pm**

natty_dread wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:The deeper motive in the middle east is not religion__ but racism. You know, the thing we pretend is a problem here is actually a problem over there.

(emphasis mine.)

Viperoverlord, can you please provide your reasoning why you consider racism not to be a problem in the united states of America?

Also, if it's "not a problem", who is forcing you to "pretend" that it is and why?

I'm really interested in hearing your point of view.

By problem __ I of course refer to a deep seated cultural problem. Although I do think that racial biases are common, I think that systematic racial discrimination in America isn't the serious problem that jaded people want to pretend that is. I find that people in America generally treat people fairly regardless of race. It is not like other countries where people are literally mass killing b/c of ethnic controversy. One can obviously find pockets of racism in America and one always will find them. But we should focus on the overall positive racial workings in America. Trumped up charges of racial inequity actually distract from the financial inequity that exist in America (And I don't say that from an Obamian perspective to justify socialism - I say that from an ethical standpoint whereby elitists are unethically allowed to oppress the masses).

Posted: **Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:01 pm**

What are the "overall positive racial workings in America"?

Posted: **Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:02 pm**

ViperOverLord wrote:I find that people in America generally treat people fairly regardless of race.

Ok, so do you think all the black people who constantly report being treated unfairly because of their race are lying?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/opini ... all?src=tp

Why Is the N.Y.P.D. After Me?
By NICHOLAS K. PEART
Published: December 17, 2011

WHEN I was 14, my mother told me not to panic if a police officer stopped me. And she cautioned me to carry ID and never run away from the police or I could be shot. In the nine years since my mother gave me this advice, I have had numerous occasions to consider her wisdom.

One evening in August of 2006, I was celebrating my 18th birthday with my cousin and a friend. We were staying at my sister’s house on 96th Street and Amsterdam Avenue in Manhattan and decided to walk to a nearby place and get some burgers. It was closed so we sat on benches in the median strip that runs down the middle of Broadway. We were talking, watching the night go by, enjoying the evening when suddenly, and out of nowhere, squad cars surrounded us. A policeman yelled from the window, “Get on the ground!”

I was stunned. And I was scared. Then I was on the ground — with a gun pointed at me. I couldn’t see what was happening but I could feel a policeman’s hand reach into my pocket and remove my wallet. Apparently he looked through and found the ID I kept there. “Happy Birthday,” he said sarcastically. The officers questioned my cousin and friend, asked what they were doing in town, and then said goodnight and left us on the sidewalk.

Less than two years later, in the spring of 2008, N.Y.P.D. officers stopped and frisked me, again. And for no apparent reason. This time I was leaving my grandmother’s home in Flatbush, Brooklyn; a squad car passed me as I walked down East 49th Street to the bus stop. The car backed up. Three officers jumped out. Not again. The officers ordered me to stand, hands against a garage door, fished my wallet out of my pocket and looked at my ID. Then they let me go.

I was stopped again in September of 2010. This time I was just walking home from the gym. It was the same routine: I was stopped, frisked, searched, ID’d and let go.

These experiences changed the way I felt about the police. After the third incident I worried when police cars drove by; I was afraid I would be stopped and searched or that something worse would happen. I dress better if I go downtown. I don’t hang out with friends outside my neighborhood in Harlem as much as I used to. Essentially, I incorporated into my daily life the sense that I might find myself up against a wall or on the ground with an officer’s gun at my head. For a black man in his 20s like me, it’s just a fact of life in New York.

Here are a few other facts: last year, the N.Y.P.D. recorded more than 600,000 stops; 84 percent of those stopped were blacks or Latinos. Police are far more likely to use force when stopping blacks or Latinos than whites. In half the stops police cite the vague “furtive movements” as the reason for the stop. Maybe black and brown people just look more furtive, whatever that means. These stops are part of a larger, more widespread problem — a racially discriminatory system of stop-and-frisk in the N.Y.P.D. The police use the excuse that they’re fighting crime to continue the practice, but no one has ever actually proved that it reduces crime or makes the city safer. Those of us who live in the neighborhoods where stop-and-frisks are a basic fact of daily life don’t feel safer as a result.

We need change. When I was young I thought cops were cool. They had a respectable and honorable job to keep people safe and fight crime. Now, I think their tactics are unfair and they abuse their authority. The police should consider the consequences of a generation of young people who want nothing to do with them — distrust, alienation and more crime.

Last May, I was outside my apartment building on my way to the store when two police officers jumped out of an unmarked car and told me to stop and put my hands up against the wall. I complied. Without my permission, they removed my cellphone from my hand, and one of the officers reached into my pockets, and removed my wallet and keys. He looked through my wallet, then handcuffed me. The officers wanted to know if I had just come out of a particular building. No, I told them, I lived next door.

One of the officers asked which of the keys they had removed from my pocket opened my apartment door. Then he entered my building and tried to get into my apartment with my key. My 18-year-old sister was inside with two of our younger siblings; later she told me she had no idea why the police were trying to get into our apartment and was terrified. She tried to call me, but because they had confiscated my phone, I couldn’t answer.

Meanwhile, a white officer put me in the back of the police car. I was still handcuffed. The officer asked if I had any marijuana, and I said no. He removed and searched my shoes and patted down my socks. I asked why they were searching me, and he told me someone in my building complained that a person they believed fit my description had been ringing their bell. After the other officer returned from inside my apartment building, they opened the door to the police car, told me to get out, removed the handcuffs and simply drove off. I was deeply shaken.

For young people in my neighborhood, getting stopped and frisked is a rite of passage. We expect the police to jump us at any moment. We know the rules: don’t run and don’t try to explain, because speaking up for yourself might get you arrested or worse. And we all feel the same way — degraded, harassed, violated and criminalized because we’re black or Latino. Have I been stopped more than the average young black person? I don’t know, but I look like a zillion other people on the street. And we’re all just trying to live our lives.

As a teenager, I was quiet and kept to myself. I’m about to graduate from the Borough of Manhattan Community College, and I have a stronger sense of myself after getting involved with the Brotherhood/Sister Sol, a neighborhood organization in Harlem. We educate young people about their rights when they’re stopped by the police and how to stay safe in those interactions. I have talked to dozens of young people who have had experiences like mine. And I know firsthand how much it messes with you. Because of them, I’m doing what I can to help change things and am acting as a witness in a lawsuit brought by the Center for Constitutional Rights to stop the police from racially profiling and harassing black and brown people in New York.

It feels like an important thing to be part of a community of hundreds of thousands of people who are wrongfully stopped on their way to work, school, church or shopping, and are patted down or worse by the police though they carry no weapon; and searched for no reason other than the color of their skin. I hope police practices will change and that when I have children I won’t need to pass along my mother’s advice.

Posted: **Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:04 pm**

BigBallinStalin wrote:What are the "overall positive racial workings in America"?

Haha. That is a rather unclear term. I simply mean, that people tend to treat people based on their character (or whatever standard criteria they use) and not based on the color of their skin. That is what I see in the majority of people.

Addendum: That is not to say that many people do not find themselves to be jaded by racial politics from time to time.

natty_dread wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:I find that people in America generally treat people fairly regardless of race.

Ok, so do you think all the black people who constantly report being treated unfairly because of their race are lying?

I believe there is a high level of victimology. As someone that has taught in the urban environment, I saw that constantly preached. Frankly, if you were to teach in an urban setting, you would know that outright lying is much more common as well. That is not an indictment of urban culture. That is just telling you the reality though.

natty_dread wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/opini ... all?src=tp

Why Is the N.Y.P.D. After Me?
By NICHOLAS K. PEART
Published: December 17, 2011

Bla bla bla...Police harrassed me three times b/c I'm black.

As a single white male that has been harassed by police on way more than three occasions, I'll tell you that there is simply a police state problem in America and police are on the prowl for people to bully. Many of the people that become cops were bullies before they became cops.

Posted: **Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:50 pm**

natty_dread wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:The deeper motive in the middle east is not religion__ but racism. You know, the thing we pretend is a problem here is actually a problem over there.

(emphasis mine.)

Viperoverlord, can you please provide your reasoning why you consider racism not to be a problem in the united states of America?

Also, if it's "not a problem", who is forcing you to "pretend" that it is and why?

I'm really interested in hearing your point of view.

Looks like he was talking about the middle east. His point is America is the least racist country when it comes to comparing the racism of other countries, like in the middle east.

America is thee most tolerant and accepting nation on earth not only to skin color but also religious beliefs.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:11 am**

ViperOverLord wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:What are the "overall positive racial workings in America"?

Haha. That is a rather unclear term. I simply mean, that people tend to treat people based on their character (or whatever standard criteria they use) and not based on the color of their skin. That is what I see in the majority of people.

Addendum: That is not to say that many people do not find themselves to be jaded by racial politics from time to time.

natty_dread wrote:
ViperOverLord wrote:I find that people in America generally treat people fairly regardless of race.

Ok, so do you think all the black people who constantly report being treated unfairly because of their race are lying?

I believe there is a high level of victimology. As someone that has taught in the urban environment, I saw that constantly preached. Frankly, if you were to teach in an urban setting, you would know that outright lying is much more common as well. That is not an indictment of urban culture. That is just telling you the reality though.

natty_dread wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/opini ... all?src=tp

Why Is the N.Y.P.D. After Me?
By NICHOLAS K. PEART
Published: December 17, 2011

Bla bla bla...Police harrassed me three times b/c I'm black.

As a single white male that has been harassed by police on way more than three occasions, I'll tell you that there is simply a police state problem in America and police are on the prowl for people to bully. Many of the people that become cops were bullies before they became cops.

And as a white Jew from New York City, I can assure you that the issue is in fact race. The NYPD's racially profiles as a matter of policy.

PS. The fact that I'm white, Jewish, or from NYC has no bearing on the facts.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:58 am**

Phatscotty wrote:America is thee most tolerant and accepting nation on earth not only to skin color but also religious beliefs.

Do you have evidence for this statement?

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:03 am**

ViperOverLord wrote:
I believe there is a high level of victimology. As someone that has taught in the urban environment, I saw that constantly preached. Frankly, if you were to teach in an urban setting, you would know that outright lying is much more common as well. That is not an indictment of urban culture. That is just telling you the reality though.

So you are in fact saying that minorities are lying when they claim they are being discriminated against.

Interesting, coming from a privileged white heterosexual male.

natty_dread wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/opini ... all?src=tp

Why Is the N.Y.P.D. After Me?
By NICHOLAS K. PEART
Published: December 17, 2011

Bla bla bla...Police harrassed me three times b/c I'm black.

As a single white male that has been harassed by police on way more than three occasions, I'll tell you that there is simply a police state problem in America and police are on the prowl for people to bully. Many of the people that become cops were bullies before they became cops.

So basically... your argument seems to be "I was harassed by police a few times so black people have nothing to complain about"?

The writer of the article clearly indicated that he had been harassed many more times, but he only wrote about three examples. Besides, even if you had been harassed by police more times than a certain person who is black, that still doesn't mean that black people aren't harassed more in general.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:24 am**

tl;dr, but I just want to point out that religiousist isn't the same as racist.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:30 am**

natty_dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:America is thee most tolerant and accepting nation on earth not only to skin color but also religious beliefs.

Do you have evidence for this statement?

Yes

Not America

America

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:38 am**

InkL0sed wrote:And as a white Jew from New York City, I can assure you that the issue is in fact race. The NYPD's racially profiles as a matter of policy.

You are full of shit. There is not policy of racial discrimination by the NYPD. And they don't racially profile either. If there's two guys; a black man with a suit and brief case and a white guy with a bandanna and teared jeans, it's the white guy that's going to get the look.

natty_dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:America is thee most tolerant and accepting nation on earth not only to skin color but also religious beliefs.

Do you have evidence for this statement?

The evidence is in the reality. Come to America instead of listening to all the b.s you hear in the media. We are the most accepting country by far__ so accepting that we give tons of perks to people that break our laws to be here. Finland wants me as a tourist only. The minute I stopped living it up in a five star hotel they'd boot my ass out and if ya'll are like many countries you'd make me literally pay for my freedom too.

natty_dread wrote:So you are in fact saying that minorities are lying when they claim they are being discriminated against.

I am saying that there are many trumped up charges out there and that are often put out their to justify or dismiss bad behavior. Of course we have the occasional Rodney King. And when that happens the offenders should be punished. But like I was saying, police brutality is just that, police brutality. There's some white dude in Fullerton, Ca not far from me that had the shit beat out of him in from of scores of people by about seven police and he died. Should we say that he got the shit beat out of him b/c of societal racism or is it b/c some cops decided to be murdering thugs?

natty_dread wrote:Interesting, coming from a privileged white heterosexual male.

What's interesting is that you assume b/c I'm white I'm privileged. You rail against racism and then you engage in your own sanctimonious stereotyping? Seems rather fucked up to me.

On another note, it's interesting that you assume that I'm heterosexual and that b/c I am I automatically have less plight than if I were homosexual.

natty_dread wrote:
So basically... your argument seems to be "I was harassed by police a few times so black people have nothing to complain about"?

The writer of the article clearly indicated that he had been harassed many more times, but he only wrote about three examples. Besides, even if you had been harassed by police more times than a certain person who is black, that still doesn't mean that black people aren't harassed more in general.

I don't claim that black people aren't harassed more than white people. They most certainly are. But my premise for why they're harassed is completely different. You claim that they're harassed b/c of the color of their skin. I claim that they're harassed more b/c of their economic conditions. I think police find it easier to f*ck with people in the hood, barrio, project, however you want to put it. Of course to give the police some credence, their is more criminality in those areas (much much more).

The IRS fucks with white people more b/c their targets are richer people who tend to be white. Is the IRS racist? No, they just have their socio-economic targes, same as the police. It's fucked up but it's not b/c of racism.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:43 am**

Phatscotty wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:America is thee most tolerant and accepting nation on earth not only to skin color but also religious beliefs.

Do you have evidence for this statement?

Yes

Not America

America

I think this is a perfectly valid point, considering we're on the internet.

ViperOverLord wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:And as a white Jew from New York City, I can assure you that the issue is in fact race. The NYPD's racially profiles as a matter of policy.

You are full of shit. There is not policy of racial discrimination by the NYPD. And they don't racially profile either. If there's two guys; a black man with a suit and brief case and a white guy with a bandanna and teared jeans, it's the white guy that's going to get the look.

1. quoted for flaming
2. disagree. Kanye West once rapped "we ain't going nowhere but we got suits and cases" in reference to the fact that often times, drug dealers (who I'm assuming are Afro-American, because West himself is Afro-American and he refers to them as "we"), will act the part of a less suspicious person in order to avoid detection by pigs. Thusly, if la policia are doing their hw, and keep their ears to the ground, I'm using a lot of cliches, and also, they might be equally suspicious of a suited black man and a trashy white person. More likely than not, if the white guy is in his adolescence, he is just being a rebellious p.o.s.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:20 am**

I wonder, how many in here think that the majority of Americans are racist?

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:06 am**

BigBallinStalin wrote:I wonder, how many in here think that the majority of Americans are racist?

It depends on how far reaching your definition of racism is. My definition of racism is treating someone differently because of their race. By that definition, the majority of Americans are racist as most people are treated differently because of their race by other people.

If your definition of racism is treating someone poorly becuase of their race, I do not think the majority of Americans are racist.

I will leave these here and provide the link later (after I get some reaction). These are crime statistics from a major U.S. city by race:

Population by Race
Race #1 - 11.9%
Race #2 - 23%
Race #3 - 35.3%
Race #4 - 27.6%

Misdemeanor Criminal Mischief
Race #1 - 8% victim, 2.9% suspect, 3.4% arrestee
Race #2 - 36.3% victim, 49.2% suspect, 38.2% arrestee
Race #3 - 30.3% victim, 17.6% suspect, 21.5% arrestee
Race #4 - 24.6% victim, 30% suspect, 36.4% arresstee

Murder and Non-Negligent Manslaughter
Race #1 - 3.3% victim, 3.5% suspect, 3% arrestee
Race #2 - 67% victim, 60.9% suspect, 54.5% arrestee
Race #3 - 5% victim, 4.9% suspect, 8.5% arrestee
Race #4 - 24.7% victim, 30.7% suspect, 33.7% arrestee

Rape
Race #1 - 5.5% victim, 4.7% suspect, 5.3% arrestee
Race #2 - 40.9% victim, 52.6% suspect, 48.2% arrestee
Race #3 - 17.5% victim, 8.9% suspect, 6.7% arrestee
Race #4 - 36% victim, 33.8% suspect, 39.6% arrestee

Robbery
Race #1 - 12.5% victim, 1.2% suspect, 2.5% arrestee
Race #2 - 31.7% victim, 70.8% suspect, 61.6% arrestee
Race #3 - 17.4% victim, 4.6% suspect, 5.8% arrestee
Race #4 - 37.5% victim, 23.3% suspect, 30% arrestee

Felonious Assault
Race #1 - 5.3% victim, 4.2% suspect, 4.5% arrestee
Race #2 - 46.9% victim, 54.9% suspect, 51.5% arrestee
Race #3 - 12.9% victim, 8.2% suspect, 8.7% arrestee
Race #4 - 34.5% victim, 32.5% suspect, 35.1% arrestee

Grand Larceny
Race #1 - 11.4% victim, 2.2% suspect, 4.3% arrestee
Race #2 - 23.9% victim, 64% suspect, 50.9% arrestee
Race #3 - 44.1% victim, 11.5% suspect, 17% arrestee
Race #4 - 19.9%, 22.1% suspect, 27.5% arrestee

Shootings
Race #1 - 1.1% victim, 1.2% suspect, 1.5% arrestee
Race #2 - 73.7% victim, 74.2% suspect, 69.2% arrestee
Race #3 - 2.8% victim, 1.4% suspect, 2.9% arrestee
Race #4 - 22.3% victim, 23.3% suspect, 26.3% arrestee

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:21 am**

Phatscotty wrote:Yes

That's not evidence. Also, before you post 2030x1059 images of bald eagles, those don't count as evidence either.

ViperOverLord wrote:The evidence is in the reality. Come to America instead of listening to all the b.s you hear in the media. We are the most accepting country by far__ so accepting that we give tons of perks to people that break our laws to be here. Finland wants me as a tourist only. The minute I stopped living it up in a five star hotel they'd boot my ass out and if ya'll are like many countries you'd make me literally pay for my freedom too.

What Finland does or doesn't doesn't really have any bearing on this topic, but you're wrong about that as well. If I try to go to USA I won't get further than the customs because I have a criminal record. If you come to Finland, even if you're a convicted felon in USA, we won't turn you away. If you get a job and a permanent residence there's nothing stopping you from moving to Finland.

Also, when you say "the evidence is in the reality", what reality is that exactly? The reality as perceived by a white, heterosexual male, ie. you?

ViperOverLord wrote:I am saying that there are many trumped up charges out there and that are often put out their to justify or dismiss bad behavior. Of course we have the occasional Rodney King. And when that happens the offenders should be punished. But like I was saying, police brutality is just that, police brutality. There's some white dude in Fullerton, Ca not far from me that had the shit beat out of him in from of scores of people by about seven police and he died. Should we say that he got the shit beat out of him b/c of societal racism or is it b/c some cops decided to be murdering thugs?

What about statistics that show that black people and other minorities are constantly harrassed by the police to a higher degree than white people? Or why are the majority of your prison population black, or why black people get harsher prison sentences than whites for the same crimes?

Are those lies too?

ViperOverLord wrote:What's interesting is that you assume b/c I'm white I'm privileged.

I don't think you know what "privileged" means. Yes, you are privileged. We all are privileged in some way. You are more privileged than black people, because you're white. You're more privileged than homosexuals, because you're heterosexual (I assume). You're more privileged than people who live in 3rd world countries. You're more privileged than women, because you are male. And so on.

Similarly, even if you belong in one minority, you can still be more privileged in some aspects than other minority members. For example, a black heterosexual is more privileged than a black homosexual, who is more privileged than a black lesbian woman...

You have never had to experience discrimination because of your race. Not in the same degree that black people have. So when you say that racism "is not a problem" in your country, even when the minorities themselves are constantly saying the contrary, you're in fact enabling racism. You're dismissing the concerns of the minorities simply because you yourself are privileged, and maybe because you have not personally witnessed the kind of discrimination many people experience. You need to learn that your personal experience does not necessarily correlate with reality.

ViperOverLord wrote:On another note, it's interesting that you assume that I'm heterosexual and that b/c I am I automatically have less plight than if I were homosexual.

Are you homosexual?

ViperOverLord wrote:I don't claim that black people aren't harassed more than white people. They most certainly are. But my premise for why they're harassed is completely different. You claim that they're harassed b/c of the color of their skin. I claim that they're harassed more b/c of their economic conditions.

Interesting, what's your evidence for that claim? More personal anecdotes about how you once saw a white guy get beaten by police?

ViperOverLord wrote:The IRS fucks with white people more b/c their targets are richer people who tend to be white. Is the IRS racist? No, they just have their socio-economic targes, same as the police. It's fucked up but it's not b/c of racism.

Oh, the poor rich white man! Why won't anyone hear the plight of the rich white man!

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:24 pm**

BigBallinStalin wrote:I wonder, how many in here think that the majority of Americans are racist?

a better question is: how many in here think that racism is always bad?

i've found that two people who have different answers to this question can rarely have a meaningful conversation about racism.

in this thread, for example, VOL claims that racial discrimination by police can be good because black people commit a disproportionate amount of violent crimes, and racial profiling makes prevention of these crimes easier. natty claims that racial discrimiation by police only leads to unjust accusations and "police-state"-like activity like the kind in the NYT article.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:54 pm**

I like where this thread is going.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:04 pm**

Neoteny wrote:I like where this thread is going.

I'm just upset that no one has commented on my statistics. I want some guesses as to the races.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:10 pm**

thegreekdog wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I like where this thread is going.

I'm just upset that no one has commented on my statistics. I want some guesses as to the races.

1 is asians, 2 is african americans, 3 is whites, 4 is latinos

those being generalized, non-census categories.

i didn't look at any of the stats, but just guessed based on the percentage of population numbers.

happy now?

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:14 pm**

whitestazn88 wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I like where this thread is going.

I'm just upset that no one has commented on my statistics. I want some guesses as to the races.

1 is asians, 2 is african americans, 3 is whites, 4 is latinos

those being generalized, non-census categories.

i didn't look at any of the stats, but just guessed based on the percentage of population numbers.

happy now?

Yes thanks.

Now, I need natty dread to talk about how the statistics exhibit racism.

Posted: **Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:17 pm**

thegreekdog wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I like where this thread is going.

I'm just upset that no one has commented on my statistics. I want some guesses as to the races.

The stats are a significant part of why I'm interested.

If you want, pretend I said something hippieliberal like requesting statistics about income for the races to help me out. Going on that you may not need to ask Natty, but I wouldn't pretend to speak for ol' Nat.

Conquer Club

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