Conquer Club

and abortion is murder,
then women who have miscarriages should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

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bedub1 wrote:and abortion is murder,
then women who have miscarriages should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

No.

bedub1 wrote:and abortion is murder,
then women who have miscarriages should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

No- miscarriages are a form of abortion. And abortion, of course, to play the devil's advocate, is murder. Miscarriages are murders, plain and simple. Unless, of course, abortion isn't actually murder.

Well if you say NO then you must realize that abortion isn't murder.

bedub1 wrote:Well if you say NO then you must realize that abortion isn't murder.

Of course it's not. Anybody who says that abortion is murder is a fantasist. Well, I guess there are some who actually consider it equivalent to murder, but they would be severely mentally deranged.

*****

BGtheBrain wrote:nope. Miscarriages can be caused by a variety of reasons. To group them all in to one group and say that they all would be involuntary manslaughter is incorrect.

Negligence is needed for involuntary manslaughter.

For the record, I consider abortion murder

I don't think you do. I think you've been caught up in some easy rhetoric without actually thinking about the consequences of what you're saying. I think you don't like abortion, and because you haven't thought about it you're quite happy to call it any number of other things that are bad.

I guess we'll allow the weird bit of your post where you seem to accept that abortions are sometimes not murder, or involuntary manslaughter, but go on to say that you still consider abortion to be murder. I think that's more an issue for you to put your thoughts right than for me to argue against incoherency.

But anyway- you consider abortion to be murder, apart from, of course, when it's not. Kind of a free wheeling definition you've got there, but I'll ask the same question that I ask all the "Abortion is Murder" folk- how would you punish women who have abortions? And, of course, their doctors, friends who helped and supported them, family members who knew about it...

Roughly speaking, are you sure you're willing to accuse so many people of criminal acts?

Or are you, as i suspect, just another lazy "I FINK BORTION IS MURDER" kool-aid drinker regardless of what equating abortion with murder would actually mean.

BGtheBrain wrote:For the record, I consider abortion murder

I've had a pregnancy I started aborted once.

Are you in fact calling me a murderer?

is it a natural miscarriage? was the fetus already dead?

if the answer to either of these is "yes" then it would not qualify as manslaughter

natty dread wrote:I've had a pregnancy I started aborted once.

Are you in fact calling me a murderer?

i don't know the exact circumstances but i would say that you probably are a murderer. this does not significantly change my opinion of you.

natty dread wrote:

BGtheBrain wrote:For the record, I consider abortion murder

I've had a pregnancy I started aborted once.

Are you in fact calling me a murderer?

An accessory to murder, certainly, if I'm reading BG's post right. Of course, there's always the possibility that he(?) simply objects to abortion and doesn't actually think it's murder.

john9blue wrote:is it a natural miscarriage? was the fetus already dead?

if the answer to either of these is "yes" then it would not qualify as manslaughter

natty dread wrote:I've had a pregnancy I started aborted once.

Are you in fact calling me a murderer?

i don't know the exact circumstances but i would say that you probably are a murderer. this does not significantly change my opinion of you.

It's so easy to call people things on the internet, tough guy. I bet you wouldn't do it in real life though.

Or are you such a sanctimonious asshole in real life too?

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BGtheBrain wrote:I think anyone who had an abortion has committed murder.

It's a religious belief that life begins at conception.

How do I punish them? Well in the USA it is legal, so there is no punishment I could give them.

If it was illegal, I would expect them to be punished the same way any other murderer would be punished.

As with anyone who doesnt share my beliefs I cant force them to believe what i do. I feel sorry if you had an abortion, but thats all I can really do.

And that's exactly the kind of lazy thinking that let's you say "abortion if murder"- for all the arguments worrying about consequence-free sex, you really have no idea, no idea at all about the consequences of your arguments, of the social model that you're proposing.

Consequence free arguing, no blame held when it comes to the harsh reality of pregnancy.

Why cant people be pragmatic on this fucking issue?

Abortion is bad from a moral viewpoint: Yes (unless for obvious medical reasons as per Players argument)
Abortion is good for society: Yes (subjective point, but kinda moot anyways, im referring to costs of unwanted children)
Abortion is already prevelent in society and it will be impossible to stop now that its here: Yes (make it illegal, itll just go underground so to speak - home made abortions and other horrid things)

Solution: Just fucking get on with it, accept its here, regulate it, make it safe and get the f*ck over it again. Killing babies has NO impact on your path to heaven so f*ck off and let satans children get on with their lives.

Symmetry wrote:

bedub1 wrote:and abortion is murder,
then women who have miscarriages should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

No- miscarriages are a form of abortion. And abortion, of course, to play the devil's advocate, is murder. Miscarriages are murders, plain and simple. Unless, of course, abortion isn't actually murder.

This line of argument, or at least the implication that it disproves the pro-life, or let us use the term, anti-abortion, position, is built on two semantic problems.

Now the saying "Abortion is murder" is a slogan, boiled down to three words for bumper-stickers and picket signs. The problem with such a slogan is that it is imprecise. We run across problems with the definitions of both of the operative words: "abortion" and "murder".

OK, a miscarriage is medically referred to as a "spontaneous abortion" so technically the term "abortion" includes events over which no one had control, and which possibly nobody even wanted. Obviously those who believe abortion should be illegal are not talking about that, and to use that is a bit of shameless chicanery, so can we just get past that?

Now the semantic problem with the term "murder" is a little more complex. There are many different circumstances under which one might end a life, and not all of them are "murder". Situations that most would say are certainly not "murder" would include self-defense, and the defense of other lives. Beyond that there are a whole range of circumstances with varying degrees of controversiality (e.g. war). In the legal system various circumstances are called "manslaughter" or even "justifiable homicide". These take into account the mental state and motivation of the person. To be considered "murder" there has to be a degree of specific malice toward the deceased, among other things. If someone is convinced that the, let's use the term "embryo", is just a lump of tissue, or part of the mother's body that is just being removed, that hardly fits.

The problems with the oversimplified slogan “Abortion is murder” do not in any way contradict the well-considered, and I believe true, position that the child in the womb is a person, and that abortion means ending her life. We can discuss the complexities of the various circumstances, and the efficacy of various consequences, but that is a different issue.

So pregnant women would then be able to use carpool lanes?

daddy1gringo wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

bedub1 wrote:and abortion is murder,
then women who have miscarriages should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

No- miscarriages are a form of abortion. And abortion, of course, to play the devil's advocate, is murder. Miscarriages are murders, plain and simple. Unless, of course, abortion isn't actually murder.

This line of argument, or at least the implication that it disproves the pro-life, or let us use the term, anti-abortion, position, is built on two semantic problems.

Now the saying "Abortion is murder" is a slogan, boiled down to three words for bumper-stickers and picket signs. The problem with such a slogan is that it is imprecise. We run across problems with the definitions of both of the operative words: "abortion" and "murder".

OK, a miscarriage is medically referred to as a "spontaneous abortion" so technically the term "abortion" includes events over which no one had control, and which possibly nobody even wanted. Obviously those who believe abortion should be illegal are not talking about that, and to use that is a bit of shameless chicanery, so can we just get past that?

But that's not true. If pregnant women were plugged into feeding machines and did nothing but sit, then the chances of miscarriages would very likely drop. To do otherwise would increase the risk of miscarriage, which means that the risk of killing a person has increased.

If a miscarriage were to occur and if full safety and care weren't exercised, then we have a case of negligent homicide. The pro-life "fetus=person" argument is absurd.

BGtheBrain wrote:I think anyone who had an abortion has committed murder.

So: you're saying I'm a murderer?

Yes or no?

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natty dread wrote:It's so easy to call people things on the internet, tough guy. I bet you wouldn't do it in real life though.

Or are you such a sanctimonious asshole in real life too?

apparently it's not so easy to call people things on the internet. BG isn't even willing to call you a murderer despite the fact that it's consistent with his beliefs...

why do you form a mental image of me with all these pathetic stereotypes and then pretend that's what i'm actually like? is it your own unique way of coping?

BGtheBrain wrote:You know my view on abortion and those who had an abortion.

That's all I'm gonna say. There is no need for me to personally call you anything like you want me to.

It's a simple question. Why are you dodging it?

john9blue wrote:why do you form a mental image of me with all these pathetic stereotypes and then pretend that's what i'm actually like? is it your own unique way of coping?

I form an image of you based on how you act. And you act like an asshole pretty much all the time.

natty dread wrote:

john9blue wrote:why do you form a mental image of me with all these pathetic stereotypes and then pretend that's what i'm actually like? is it your own unique way of coping?

I form an image of you based on how you act. And you act like an asshole pretty much all the time.

You two already have a thread for this.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=167152

saxitoxin wrote:

natty dread wrote:

BGtheBrain wrote:You know my view on abortion and those who had an abortion.

That's all I'm gonna say. There is no need for me to personally call you anything like you want me to.

It's a simple question. Why are you dodging it?

You two already have a thread for this.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=167152

What does that thread have to do with bgthebrain?