Conquer Club

Okay we can get into all kind of different aspects of what a Watchman can or cannot do, is supposed to or isn't supposed to do, and it can differ greatly from state to state and country to country, but I want to start off with what I have heard so many people say recently.

The dish about how a Watchman, Zimmerman specifically, is not supposed to follow a suspicious person? And if they do they deserve to be attacked? What the hell do you think a watchman does? Do these people understand that this community has been absolutely plagued by a rash of robbery, burglary, auto theft in the last 80 days? Sure, call the police, but have the police been able to protect people homes and cars and property? NO! If the police could do anything about it, the community would not be riddled with crime. So the community had to go one step further.

The watchman of that community, with that much crime going on, has to assume he is going to run into someone who wishes to harm the community he is to protect at least every couple days. Is the watchmen really not supposed to assume he is going to run into a lot of criminals? Is the watchmen to assume that when he does run into a criminal, the criminal is not armed? That the criminal obeys the law? That the criminal is not carrying a gun?

I was just in a gated community today dropping something off at work, and I had to pass through a barred off roadway and I could not enter until I showed the Watchmen the address I was going to and tell him for what reason. He might have even asked me to show him the box of receipts I was dropping off, which I would have done, and then thanked him. These are the rules of that community and they are for safety.

That is why it's a closed gate community, and I know some to most gated communities ask residents to inform them of any guests that might be staying in the community, and in those circumstances yes Saxi you can expect to be asked where you are going and if you live there or not, and much more.

PhatScotty wrote:What the hell do you think a watchman does?

Watchmen: a group of superheroes created by Allen Moore in the 80s who work to uncover wide-ranging criminal conspiracies. Training involves prolonged exposure to radioactive gamma rays.

Neighborhood Watch: A volunteer program started in the '70s in which old ladies and stay-at-home moms look out their windows to watch what's going on, pick-up the mail for their out-of-town neighbors and host barbecues. Training consists of an one-hour video.

According to the Tucson Police Department, the purpose of the neighborhood watch:

A patrol officer driving by your home might not recognize someone as a stranger in your yard. However, an alert neighbor would recognize the person as a stranger. They could then call 9-1-1 to alert police of the suspicious activity. Members of Neighborhood Watch groups should only observe and report suspicious activities to the Police Department. This leaves the responsibility for confronting and apprehending criminals where it belongs—with police.

http://cms3.tucsonaz.gov/police/neighborhood-watch

According to the National Sheriff's Association Neighbhorhood Watch Manual:

Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” of law enforcement. They should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however,citizens should never try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities.

http://www.usaonwatch.org/assets/public ... l_1210.pdf

PhatScotty wrote:The dish about how a Watchman, Zimmerman specifically, is not supposed to follow a suspicious person?

Acting suspiciously is not a crime. The only possible response to suspicious action is a Terry Stop. Only a police officer can make a Terry Stop, there's no such thing as a "Citizen's Terry Stop" like a citizen's arrest.

PhatScotty wrote:I could not enter until I showed the Watchmen the address I was going to and tell him for what reason.

Presumably you encountered a security guard hired by the community, not a member of the neighborhood watch. The neighborhood watch is not an elite force of SWAT veterans, Mossad agents or battle-hardened 11-Bravos. Here's a picture of a Neighborhood Watch meeting I found when I google imaged "neighborhood watch meeting":

Alright Saxi. So let's go with your recommendation. Let's say Zimmerman does what you and other suggest he should have done, which is to stop following the stranger, and call the police, and then go home.

Where does the police officer go when he gets there 20 minutes later?

Phatscotty wrote:Alright Saxi. So let's go with your recommendation. Let's say Zimmerman does what you and other suggest he should have done, which is to stop following the stranger, and call the police, and then go home.

Where does the police officer go when he gets there 20 minutes later?

If the suspicious person has left the neighborhood then - by definition - the suspicious person is not a threat to the neighborhood.

Pretty lame, scotty.

Why do you go to such convoluted lengths just to justify a hate crime?

Do you hate black people so much?

Phatscotty wrote:Alright Saxi. So let's go with your recommendation. Let's say Zimmerman does what you and other suggest he should have done, which is to stop following the stranger, and call the police, and then go home.

Where does the police officer go when he gets there 20 minutes later?

He follows the trail of skittles left by the kid, and it leads to - dun dun dun, his fathers house.

natty dread wrote:Pretty lame, scotty.

Why do you go to such convoluted lengths just to justify a hate crime?

Do you hate black people so much?

While it might be a crime, it's clearly not a hate crime and yet, once someone points that out, you have one of the Duke boys in the other thread (I forget which one) pipe up with a line like "the blacks say" which deep-sixes any option for rational discussion and prompts responses like "you hate black people!" It's either [a] publicly decapitate Zimmerman, or, [b] give Zimmerman a medal and then dig up Martin to defile his corpse.

These threads are probably proof why democracy is a bad idea. Inevitably it descends to two lunatic extremes egging each other to greater and greater extremes. Baron von PWN, the only moderate, semi-rational person in the discussion to date, is overwhelmed and ignored. If Conquer Club were Germany c. 1932, Baron von PWN would be Heinrich Held.

saxitoxin wrote:

natty dread wrote:Pretty lame, scotty.

Why do you go to such convoluted lengths just to justify a hate crime?

Do you hate black people so much?

While it might be a crime, it's clearly not a hate crime and yet, once someone points that out, you have one of the Duke boys in the other thread (I forget which one) pipe up with a line like "the blacks say" which deep-sixes any option for rational discussion and prompts responses like "you hate black people!" It's either [a] publicly decapitate Zimmerman, or, [b] give Zimmerman a medal and then dig up Martin to defile his corpse.

These threads are probably proof why democracy is a bad idea. Inevitably it descends to two lunatic extremes egging each other to greater and greater extremes. Baron von PWN, the only moderate, semi-rational person in the discussion to date, is overwhelmed and ignored. If Conquer Club were Germany c. 1932, Baron von PWN would be Heinrich Held.

Saxi, we all know that east germany had a very lenient policy on racism, but try to keep up with the times, will ya? It's no longer ok to hate black people.

saxitoxin wrote:

natty dread wrote:Pretty lame, scotty.

Why do you go to such convoluted lengths just to justify a hate crime?

Do you hate black people so much?

While it might be a crime, it's clearly not a hate crime and yet, once someone points that out, you have one of the Duke boys in the other thread (I forget which one) pipe up with a line like "the blacks say" which deep-sixes any option for rational discussion and prompts responses like "you hate black people!" It's either [a] publicly decapitate Zimmerman, or, [b] give Zimmerman a medal and then dig up Martin to defile his corpse.

These threads are probably proof why democracy is a bad idea. Inevitably it descends to two lunatic extremes egging each other to greater and greater extremes. Baron von PWN, the only moderate, semi-rational person in the discussion to date, is overwhelmed and ignored. If Conquer Club were Germany c. 1932, Baron von PWN would be Heinrich Held.

Semi-rational? :C

also

n 1918, after the end of the monarchy in Bavaria, Heinrich Held was one of the co-founders of the Bavarian People's Party (BVP)

saxitoxin wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:Alright Saxi. So let's go with your recommendation. Let's say Zimmerman does what you and other suggest he should have done, which is to stop following the stranger, and call the police, and then go home.

Where does the police officer go when he gets there 20 minutes later?

If the suspicious person has left the neighborhood then - by definition - the suspicious person is not a threat to the neighborhood.

how does the Watchman know if the suspicious person has left the neighborhood or is still in it if?

Phatscotty wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:Alright Saxi. So let's go with your recommendation. Let's say Zimmerman does what you and other suggest he should have done, which is to stop following the stranger, and call the police, and then go home.

Where does the police officer go when he gets there 20 minutes later?

If the suspicious person has left the neighborhood then - by definition - the suspicious person is not a threat to the neighborhood.

how does the Watchman know if the suspicious person has left the neighborhood or not?

He doesn't and there was no expectation he find out.

If he wants to avoid the potential of significant personal liability and escalation of a very minor situation by running headlong into a setting for which he hasn't prepared or trained to handle, he just has to accept that - in real life - no one has 100% control of their environment. If that's not good enough for him then he can go charging out of his house but will have to accept the liability to which he's exposing himself. Similarly, if you break your arm you could (a) set the break yourself, or, (b) go to the hospital. Just because you're legally entitled to do something doesn't mean you should do it. You can't legislate common sense.

So there is nothing anyone can do to keep the community safe?

Phatscotty wrote:So there is nothing anyone can do to keep the community safe?

Nope. Not a single thing.

Wait, sorry. I was mistaken. They can shoot unarmed teenagers to death. That'll keep the community safe.

Phatscotty wrote:So there is nothing anyone can do to keep the community safe?

Things One Can Do to Keep One's Community Safe:
- if you see a crime occurring, intervene to stop it (or call the police, if you like)

Things One Cannot Do to Keep One's Community Safe:
- go charging waddling after people you have a hunch might commit a crime at some point in the undetermined future, but who haven't actually committed it yet



ed: changed "charging" to "waddling" for purposes of accuracy in the Zimmerman situation

Timminz wrote:Wait, sorry. I was mistaken. They can shoot unarmed teenagers to death. That'll keep the community safe.

Well, did you see what he was wearing?? He was coming on to him! He had it coming! C'moonnn!

saxitoxin wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:So there is nothing anyone can do to keep the community safe?

Things One Can Do to Keep One's Community Safe:
- if you see a crime occurring, intervene to stop it (or call the police, if you like)

Things One Cannot Do to Keep One's Community Safe:
- go charging after people you have a hunch might commit a crime at some point in the undetermined future

hey, a 1 outta 1000 error rate ain't bad!

Phatscotty wrote:I was just in a gated community today dropping something off at work, and I had to pass through a barred off roadway and I could not enter until I showed the Watchmen the address I was going to and tell him for what reason. He might have even asked me to show him the box of receipts I was dropping off, which I would have done, and then thanked him. These are the rules of that community and they are for safety.

Yeah, but these guys who usually sit in the booths are security guards hired by the company that owns the complex. It is their job to prevent suspicious people or people who don't have a reason to be there from getting in. That's a huge difference between Zimmerman and the security guards you passed through. The guards are an actual check, and Zimmerman is just a crazy, want-to-be hero.

So really the police can not do anything to stop the crime unless they happen to be in the right place at the right time, and can mostly just respond and file a report. Which kind of tells me that it's open season for crime in that community....just like it has been previously.

I think a Watchman can be more effective by carrying a flashlight and wearing a spiffy shirt. Packing heat optional

mviola wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:I was just in a gated community today dropping something off at work, and I had to pass through a barred off roadway and I could not enter until I showed the Watchmen the address I was going to and tell him for what reason. He might have even asked me to show him the box of receipts I was dropping off, which I would have done, and then thanked him. These are the rules of that community and they are for safety.

Yeah, but these guys who usually sit in the booths are security guards hired by the company that owns the complex. It is their job to prevent suspicious people or people who don't have a reason to be there from getting in. That's a huge difference between Zimmerman and the security guards you passed through. The guards are an actual check, and Zimmerman is just a crazy, want-to-be hero.

Right but it's just an example of how gated communities operate. I know many just have a digital code to punch in too.

They are both trying to achieve the same objective, safety. We already know Zimmerman was not accredited.

Phatscotty wrote:So really the police can not do anything to stop the crime unless they happen to be in the right place at the right time, and can mostly just respond and file a report. Which kind of tells me that it's open season for crime in that community....just like it has been previously.

I think a Watchman can be more effective by carrying a flashlight and wearing a spiffy shirt. Packing heat optional

What crime do you think was being stopped on this occasion? You seem pretty certain that a criminal act was taking place...

What precisely was "the crime" you're referring to?

We don't have a watch. The sign in my driveway, on my house and on my shop says "Protected by a Doberman". The sign on my door says "We don't dial 911; owner is armed". Another sign on my shop says "Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again".

I leave the keys in my truck and my house unlocked; haven't had a problem in 22 years.

The sign I want to get is this one, but all my neighbors are armed too....

KoolBak wrote:We don't have a watch. The sign in my driveway, on my house and on my shop says "Protected by a Doberman". The sign on my door says "We don't dial 911; owner is armed". Another sign on my shop says "Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again".

I leave the keys in my truck and my house unlocked; haven't had a problem in 22 years.

The sign I want to get is this one, but all my neighbors are armed too....

Of course, you're also telling any potential robber that they better be well armed if they want to rob you.

Damn straight brother ;o)

Symmetry wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:So really the police can not do anything to stop the crime unless they happen to be in the right place at the right time, and can mostly just respond and file a report. Which kind of tells me that it's open season for crime in that community....just like it has been previously.

I think a Watchman can be more effective by carrying a flashlight and wearing a spiffy shirt. Packing heat optional

What crime do you think was being stopped on this occasion? You seem pretty certain that a criminal act was taking place...

What precisely was "the crime" you're referring to?

I have never thought any crime was prevented in this situation. Never once. I joked that smoking a blunt was a crime, but that was a joke. The Crime I referred to is the plague on this community in the last few months and calls for a wtachman, or security guard, or gateman, or whatever. I think there has been 9 houses burglarized in the last 80 days? Witnesses of those previous crimes kept reporting a tall dark skinned male. Hoodie optional