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If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:59 am
by Pedronicus
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2012/jun/13/civilization-ii-big-brother-orwell-1984

If you happen to have touched a computer some time within the last 20 years, the chances are you may well have spent a regrettably long time playing on one of the many instalments of Sid Meier's Civilization franchise. I doubt, however, that you will have devoted quite as much of your life to it as a contributor to the Reddit forums going by the name of Lycerius. He (it must be a he!) posted the following extraordinary statement:

"I've been playing the same game of Civ II for 10 years. Though long outdated, I grew fascinated with this particular game because by the time Civ III was released, I was already well into the distant future. I then thought that it might be interesting to see just how far into the future I could get and see what the ramifications would be."


Just in case you are one of the few people not to have played Civilization, and are therefore unaware of the planet-shifting magnetism of Lycerius' post, Here's a quick primer.

Civilization is a game that – true to its name – enables you to build your own civilisation. You start in 4000BC in a small village, which you gradually expand by farming, building things like libraries (so that you can develop technologies), and producing armies to conquer other territories. It's addictive, vaguely educational and most sane people stopped playing some time around 1997 (both in real and game years), once they'd built a spaceship and reached Alpha Centauri.

Not so Lycerius. He has carried on for an extra 2,000 years – although he is at pains to point out he doesn't just play Civilization II non-stop ("Naturally, I play other games and have a life..."). Yet, as quickly becomes apparent when you read through the rest of his post (as I urge you to do), even if Lycerius had dedicated all of his time to playing Civilization, it wouldn't have been wasted. The results are fascinating. He summarises them thus:

• The world is a hellish nightmare of suffering and devastation.

• There are three remaining super nations in the year AD3991, each competing for the scant resources left on the planet after dozens of nuclear wars have rendered vast swaths of the world uninhabitable wastelands.

The competition between Lycerius' civilisation (the Celts) and his two rivals, the Vikings and the Americans, has resulted in endless warfare:

"You've heard of the 100-year war? Try the 1,700-year war. The three remaining nations have been locked in an eternal death struggle for almost 2,000 years. Peace seems to be impossible. Every time a ceasefire is signed, the Vikings will surprise attack me or the Americans the very next turn, often with nuclear weapons."


Worse still, Lycerius explains:

"I wanted to stay a democracy, but the senate would always overrule me when I wanted to declare war before the Vikings did. This would delay my attack and render my turn and often my plans useless. And of course the Vikings would then break the ceasefire like clockwork the very next turn. Something I also miss in later Civ games is a little internal politics. Anyway, I was forced to do away with democracy roughly a thousand years ago because it was endangering my empire. But of course the people hate me now and, every few years since then, there are massive guerrilla (late game barbarians) uprisings in the heart of my empire that I have to deal with, which saps resources from the war effort."


Blah blah blah....


There is something else troubling me, however. Maybe the Civ II game engine is neutral. Maybe it just tells it as it sees it. If humanity ever finds itself with scant resources, global warming and the ability to blow itself up many times over, the inevitable result will be an Orwellian nightmare. It's enough to make you want to turn your back on society, lock yourself in your room and do nothing but play computer games until civilisation inevitably collapses ...

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:13 am
by PLAYER57832
We already have scant resources, and we are wasting them, not reusing them or even using them effectively. The US is far more wasteful than other places. But giving up is not the answer. We have to move toward true sustainability, which is possible.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:54 am
by huamulan
That'll teach him to be such sap that he can't eliminate all his rivals by 3991AD.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:26 am
by BigBallinStalin
huamulan wrote:That'll teach him to be such sap that he can't eliminate all his rivals by 3991AD.


Agreed. Civ II was disappointed in his performance, so it locked him in an everlasting game to punish him.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:03 am
by DoomYoshi
I still play civ 2 also, but I still start new games rather than playing on.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:17 am
by jonesthecurl
I never really got into Civ II, I'm a fan of the original and IV. With the original, you could only play for so long before the whole thing fell over. Once you'd got past a certain score (I think it was 256,000), strange things started happening - new bits of land would appear off the top of the map, but you couldn't go there. And random pollution would pop up out of all proportion to what was supposed to. Mind you by this time, you'd fulfilled all the goals, and stuff.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:09 am
by Ray Rider
The best thing about CivII was that it was so easy to completely customize the units and the combat graphics. I customized the knight to look like a dragoon and gave it massive strength and a huge number of attacks/movement so I would focus all my research on getting these knights, and then use a few of them to wipe out everyone on the board. Then the game was no fun and I quit...

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:13 am
by zimmah
i believe Civilization: Call to Power was the first one i played, but it's not one of the Sid Meiers Civs. In fact, i like CTP more than the sid meiers civs.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:17 am
by Doc_Brown
I've played a number of war games with strong diplomatic components, and this result doesn't surprise me. Here on CC, we largely eliminate the diplomacy/backstabbing element, which is a good thing for this game. 3-player scenarios where all are reasonably well balanced can be a nightmare.

The problem is, when you start with multiple empires vying for power, there are several steps on the way to a single dominant empire. With >4 empires, the situation is very unpredictable, and the smart empire conserves resources, tries to look as small as possible, and encourages war between the others so it can grab up the leftovers. Both long-term stable alliances and rapidly changing alliances are possible at this stage regardless of the relative power of the various empires (though weaker empires are more likely to prefer stable alliances).

Once you get to 4 empires, the situation follows a much more strict script. If all 4 are reasonably well balanced, you almost always end up with a 2v2. This scenario can remain fairly stable and fixed so long as the power is reasonably well balanced. If one power becomes dominant, it becomes much more likely that the other 3 will join together. On the other hand, if a power becomes extremely dominant (i.e. at least as big as the others combined) there is a good chance that one or more of the weaker powers will side with the strong power and simply "play for second." Conversely, if one empire gets too weak, it is in danger of being gobbled up by the other three regardless of alliances.

It's that latter scenario that leads to 3 fairly well-balanced empires and the described nightmare scenario. In fact, when you get to 3 powers, most possibilities lead back to this same situation. The possible outcomes are as follows:
  • 3 fairly balanced powers - Constant shifting of alliances as soon as any one power starts to become slightly more dominant. In most scenarios, rapid growth is not possible, which means that a 2v1 will form against whichever power starts to gain an edge. The 2 combined powers is always more powerful than the 1, so the dominance is eliminated, and no empire is ever able to gain a sufficient advantage to win.
  • 2 fairly balanced powers with 1 weaker - As long as the weaker power doesn't become too small in comparison to the others, it is actually in a good situation. The other two will be focused on each other. If one starts to gain an advantage, the weak power will usually jump back into the battle against it. Meanwhile, the weak power is able to use the peacetime to grow and regain power. Eventually, the situation returns to 3 balanced powers.
  • 1 strongly dominant power - Note that one power with slight dominance is covered in the first scenario. If one power has sufficient dominance that the combination of the others would have difficulty defeating it, that empire can pretty well dictate how the scenario plays out. If that empire wants to take over everything, it can probably find one of the other two willing to "play for second." If it just wants a long-term peace, it can do so (possibly with occasional incursions to prevent either of the other two from gaining much power relative to itself).

I would suggest that the best (and most peaceful) situation for a world with 3 remaining empires is one in which a single democratically-controlled empire controls >50% of the economic and military might in the world.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:01 pm
by Army of GOD
just cheat you fucking idiot.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:03 pm
by ManBungalow
Sure makes stalemates on CC look like the Irish football team.

Also, I have Civ III....haven't been on it fore about a year.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:18 pm
by huamulan
Maybe one of you Civ heads can clear something up for me. When I play the WW2 in Europe scenarios on Civ 4 it starts asking if I want historical events to happen. I get the impression that when it says this it means 'the game will be forced to follow the course of the real war'. Is this what happens?

Basically: if I try to conquer Europe as the Nazis will the game deliberately throw a spanner in the works?

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:06 pm
by jimboston
PLAYER57832 wrote:We already have scant resources, and we are wasting them, not reusing them or even using them effectively. The US is far more wasteful than other places. But giving up is not the answer. We have to move toward true sustainability, which is possible.


What leads you to believe this?

I have seen statistics that indicate it's not possible, and with growing populates this seems even less likely to be true.

Global War = Quickest way to reduce population levels to a number that is sustainable by our planet.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:41 pm
by nietzsche
I just installed freeciv for linux.

I'm going to become that mna.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:46 pm
by Army of GOD
nietzsche wrote:I just installed freeciv for linux.

I'm going to become that mna.


Is that an actual Civ game or like, a different game but same objective?

Also, I own Civs I, II, III, IV and V.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:48 pm
by DoomYoshi
You don't know freeciv?

AoG just lost all internets.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:50 pm
by Army of GOD
DoomYoshi wrote:You don't know freeciv?

AoG just lost all internets.


WHY WOULD I KNOW FREECIV WHEN I ALREADY OWN ALL FIVE CIVS

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:30 pm
by DoomYoshi
Army of GOD wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:You don't know freeciv?

AoG just lost all internets.


WHY WOULD I KNOW FREECIV WHEN I ALREADY OWN ALL FIVE CIVS


1) easiest way to play when you are at a cross platform LAN party
2) for when you are at your grandmother's house and forgot your civ CDs
3) infinite customization (to be fair, they all have that to some extent)
4) hex maps
5) chess tile set proves how badass you are
6) you have all the civs (and all the expansions), both ctps, AC (and AC:AC), civ the card game, civ the board game, Sid meier's civ board game, the computer game port of the board game (only counts of you played it), and you still want more?

By the way, on the civfanatics website, there is an interview with Sid Meier in which he denies that his game was based on the board game. This is laughable to those of us who have played the board game. What's more is that in the Civilization I strategy guide (which I own) Sid meier's talks about how much that game influenced his. Basically, he's a fucking weasel now. He got elevated to game god status (rightfully) and started thinking that he was a God and that rules of decency no longer applied. Oh well, here's to RRT7 or whatever is next.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:36 pm
by BigBallinStalin
jimboston wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:We already have scant resources, and we are wasting them, not reusing them or even using them effectively. The US is far more wasteful than other places. But giving up is not the answer. We have to move toward true sustainability, which is possible.


What leads you to believe this?

I have seen statistics that indicate it's not possible, and with growing populates this seems even less likely to be true.

Global War = Quickest way to reduce population levels to a number that is sustainable by our planet.


Global war sounds totes stable!

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:39 pm
by BigBallinStalin
DoomYoshi wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:You don't know freeciv?

AoG just lost all internets.


WHY WOULD I KNOW FREECIV WHEN I ALREADY OWN ALL FIVE CIVS


1) easiest way to play when you are at a cross platform LAN party
2) for when you are at your grandmother's house and forgot your civ CDs
3) infinite customization (to be fair, they all have that to some extent)
4) hex maps
5) chess tile set proves how badass you are
6) you have all the civs (and all the expansions), both ctps, AC (and AC:AC), civ the card game, civ the board game, Sid meier's civ board game, the computer game port of the board game (only counts of you played it), and you still want more?

By the way, on the civfanatics website, there is an interview with Sid Meier in which he denies that his game was based on the board game. This is laughable to those of us who have played the board game. What's more is that in the Civilization I strategy guide (which I own) Sid meier's talks about how much that game influenced his. Basically, he's a fucking weasel now. He got elevated to game god status (rightfully) and started thinking that he was a God and that rules of decency no longer applied. Oh well, here's to RRT7 or whatever is next.


I'm thinking that he doesn't want to risk being sued. It makes more sense for him to deny any connection with the board game.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:39 pm
by Woodruff
You bastards got me playing Alpha Centauri again today. Goddamit, I got things to do!!!!

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:41 pm
by Woodruff
DoomYoshi wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:You don't know freeciv?

AoG just lost all internets.


WHY WOULD I KNOW FREECIV WHEN I ALREADY OWN ALL FIVE CIVS


1) easiest way to play when you are at a cross platform LAN party
2) for when you are at your grandmother's house and forgot your civ CDs
3) infinite customization (to be fair, they all have that to some extent)
4) hex maps
5) chess tile set proves how badass you are
6) you have all the civs (and all the expansions), both ctps, AC (and AC:AC), civ the card game, civ the board game, Sid meier's civ board game, the computer game port of the board game (only counts of you played it), and you still want more?

By the way, on the civfanatics website, there is an interview with Sid Meier in which he denies that his game was based on the board game. This is laughable to those of us who have played the board game. What's more is that in the Civilization I strategy guide (which I own) Sid meier's talks about how much that game influenced his. Basically, he's a fucking weasel now. He got elevated to game god status (rightfully) and started thinking that he was a God and that rules of decency no longer applied. Oh well, here's to RRT7 or whatever is next.


The Civilization board game really is a great game.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:44 pm
by DoomYoshi
Hey, maybe if we can hookup dosbox, we could have a game over network. Alternately, we could setup a PBEM, but do trading live once a week.

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:45 pm
by Woodruff
DoomYoshi wrote:Hey, maybe if we can hookup dosbox, we could have a game over network. Alternately, we could setup a PBEM, but do trading live once a week.


I didn't know you could dosbox internettently. (I have created a wordage.)

Re: If you play Civilization II for long enough....

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:55 pm
by DoomYoshi
Woodruff wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Hey, maybe if we can hookup dosbox, we could have a game over network. Alternately, we could setup a PBEM, but do trading live once a week.


I didn't know you could dosbox internettently. (I have created a wordage.)

Perhaps you can't. I always assumed it was possible but never tried. But Advanced Civilization (the computer port of the original board game) has a PBEM option. Unfortunately, it was made by Avalon Hill, which is now owned by Them That Shall Not Be Named who will sue the hell out of me if I tell you where to download it.

I know at least 1 and probably a couple players who would be interested. We could just get a few recruits from here and away we go. As long as I'm not Crete, you will all be owned.