Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:54 pm

crispybits wrote:But the idea needs to be more formed than a one liner, and have the ducks lined up a lot better than that to counter criticisms. Like I said if a proper case can be put forward then I'm open to convincing, but just to say "the government should GTFO isn't a convincing case.


I apologize for not writing a 50-page contract.[/sarcasm] I'll get TGD to hammer one out immediately.

Crispybits, I always enjoy your posts, but I think you've dug yourself into a trench here. (A) I provided the essentials of an example which undermines your position. All you've done so far is arbitrarily raise your standards. How much higher will you raise them? To the standard of a 50-page "duckroll ducks in a row" contract?

(B) Furthermore, my post contained more than one line; the rest complemented my essential example. You're overlooking it doesn't refute my position, so perhaps I can expand on one point: "eventually through common law, this form of contract would become an acceptable substitute for certain rights of which marriage contracts enjoy the privilege." I don't have to design that 50-page contract---other people can. This is one insight of spontaneous order theory. The plans of individuals may lead to outcomes which were not intentionally designed from the beginning. Concerned individuals have the incentive to improve a contract which covers all of your concerns. Over time, this can get accomplished.

(C) Finally, I'm fine with throwing out the "must design the perfect marriage contract" discussion here. The more important point about this entire debate is the role of ideas. I agree with you that ideas should be well-defended, but given that (1) this is an online forum and not a workshop for writing 300-page books, and (2) I'm facing arbitrarily rising standards which ignore other points, would you like to refill the holes in your argument? If not, why don't we talk about the influence of ideas?
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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:01 pm

crispybits wrote:It's a list of rights you have in dealing with the world as a couple. Not a list of things you can do or that the government lets you do, but a list of things you have the right to do. I can make a medical decision about anyone right now, walk into a hospital and say "cut the leg off to save his life", but that doesn't mean I have any right to make that decision. And the hospital staff will ignore me/ask me to leave if I try unless I am either a close family member or married to whoever I'm talking about.

There are very many things on that list that are impossible not because the government "has it's talons in marriage", but because they are simply impractical. If you've gone on a couple of dates with someone are you then within your rights to demand immigration to their country? If you live in the same apartment as someone for a few weeks do you have the right to make important medical decisions for them if they are in a coma? Basically any form of acquaintance with anyone could be used as a basis for any of the things on that list unless a line is drawn somewhere, and a lot of the things on that list are very good things to grant to people in stable and long term relationships who conciously want the relationship legally recognised by the state for those reasons. Therefore there needs to be some sort of state recognised contract to allow that level of commitment. Or you need to overcome the objections in another way, or abandon an irrational position for a more rational one, because continuing to hold an irrational position (and you yourself admit it's irrational) doesn't contribute to the debate any more than premio's insane theocratic rambling does.


It's not at all irrational to push for more fundamental changes against one's government. They can be ideally held positions while marginal adjustments toward the ideal can be advocated--but that doesn't make the ideal position irrational nor unreasonable in any manner. Some may even prefer the faster adjustments, and this may work in some cases (e.g. Hurricane Katrina clearing out the shitty public schools and allowing for the rise of charter schools).
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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:06 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
crispybits wrote:But the idea needs to be more formed than a one liner, and have the ducks lined up a lot better than that to counter criticisms. Like I said if a proper case can be put forward then I'm open to convincing, but just to say "the government should GTFO isn't a convincing case.


Again, what's the convincing case that the government should not GTFO? At some point in history, the government was not involved in marriage; at some point in history, that changed (based primarily, I think, on the influence of Christianity on the government of the United States).


In the US things changed for the worse during WW1, the government-inflated 1920s, and Hoover and Roosevelt's New Deals. The government conditioned people slowly over time--probably without intending to, and now we have a bunch of crap to show for it.

These state interventions should be rejected more often, and I'm fine with one-liners. Not everyone can produce the great works which influence countries, but they can at least contribute their part--however lengthy or brief it may be. Disparaging against that, as some have done ITT, is amusing. I wish they held such standards to themselves whenever one of them advocated for government intervention.

[jokingly]

tl;dr --- double-standard motherfuckahs!

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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby tzor on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:23 am

AndyDufresne wrote:I think I'm going to need to hop into the Chamber of Understanding.


It's simple, replace ideal conditions for adoption with "can I buy a big gulp?"

It's even simpler than that, since just because you have collected one set of "facts" (based on one set of "evidence") doesn't mean that there doesn't exist another set of facts (based on more "evidence") that contradicts those facts. Few things in life are cut and dried.
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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby crispybits on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:39 am

Firstly BBS, the one liners thing was about TGD's statement that the government should GTFO of marriage, but when asked how we overcome other problems he doesn't have any real proposals. Not your post. And yes it's fine that some people can throw out one liners, I'm not judging posts based on length, but if I am to be convinced that an idea is sound, then the objections do have to be overcome by someone at some point. Currently, based on the one liner, I am not convinced and I'm not going to spend any time or energy trying to improve an idea I do not believe is workable without massive upheaval that outweighs any benefits gained. If someone can make the case and deal with the objections, I'm open to that and could be convinced if a good case is made. (I also know that convincing me personally is irrelevant, but if change is going to be made then people are going to need to be convinced at some point)

Your idea of a common law contract sounds to me pretty similar to the "they can have marriage as long as they don't call it marriage" bigotry coming out of some religious sources about the gay marriage debate. We have a suitable contract now, and a minority is trying to prevent another minority from being allowed access to it. To have a 2 tier system of marriage and your common law contract under different names, even if the legalities are identical, is something that leaves the door wide open for discrimination. Names matter. (note I'm not saying you are bigoted, just that the idea sounds similar to a flawed one that religious groups propose)

TGD, you didn't answer the question. How long do I have to be with someone for the arbitrary line to be drawn that I can decide that 65% improved survival chance is preferable to them not ever having kids? I would contend that being married is a deliberate, planned and well thought out (in most cases) act by two people that serves as a very convenient way to make legal distinctions like this. Obviously there are exceptions, especially in Las Vegas, but generally people getting married is intended by those people as a social, legal and spiritual commitment. It's a line in the sand. If we do away with that line, where do we now draw the new one?

The only case I've made is that gay and straight marriage should be treated equally in every way, including in the name they are called. When people have criticised that position I have defended it. When people propose other positions, then if I am to keep an open mind it is inevitable that I will both come up with questions for clarification and problems I foresee with application of those positions to real life situations. That's not double standards, because I don't deny anyone else the opportunity to do the same to my position. I'm not expecting a fully codified legal document ready to go into the legislation books, but I do expect that if someone proposes something they should be willing to explain it, and tell me how it would work better than what we have now.
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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:40 am

crispybits wrote:the one liners thing was about TGD's statement that the government should GTFO of marriage, but when asked how we overcome other problems he doesn't have any real proposals.


To be fair, I was fine with your one-liners. I'm a little frustrated because I've hashed all this out before in other threads, that's all.

crispybits wrote:Your idea of a common law contract sounds to me pretty similar to the "they can have marriage as long as they don't call it marriage" bigotry coming out of some religious sources about the gay marriage debate.


We actually do not have a suitable contract now precisely because gays aren't permitted to marry and gays aren't permitted to marry. And why aren't gays allowed to participate in that contractual relationship with each other? Because government decides who is permitted to engage in that contractual relationship and the government has decided that gays are not permitted to engage in that contractual relationship. Your solution is to petition the government to permit gays to engage in that contract. My position is to do away with the government regulation of the contract itself. The end result, for gays, is the same. The end result for polygamists and polyandrists and people that aren't married traditionally is not the same; in fact their "rights" (as you put it) are still violated.

crispybits wrote:TGD, you didn't answer the question. How long do I have to be with someone for the arbitrary line to be drawn that I can decide that 65% improved survival chance is preferable to them not ever having kids? I would contend that being married is a deliberate, planned and well thought out (in most cases) act by two people that serves as a very convenient way to make legal distinctions like this. Obviously there are exceptions, especially in Las Vegas, but generally people getting married is intended by those people as a social, legal and spiritual commitment. It's a line in the sand. If we do away with that line, where do we now draw the new one?


I don't know the answer; it depends upon your contractual relationship with the person. I should certainly not be the one deciding that. And I contend that the government shouldn't decide it either, certainly not with something arbitrary like marriage. And I say arbitratry because, right now, marriage is between one man and one woman. No one else can have the same contractual relationship.

As to the rest, you don't really answer my points, you just keep saying "you're not explaining it well enough." Hell, BBS laid out an alternative and you've yet to test the validity of it in any way. Hell, I indicated the problem with assuming that the marriage contract is the best alternative a number of times in this thread. It seems like you've made up your mind already, so I do take umbrage with the idea that you "don't deny anyone else the opportunity to do the same to my position." Clearly I've explained my position in depth.
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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby crispybits on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:26 pm

Then link to the other post / thread where you've explained it, I don't read or fully remember every post on every thread. If what you're saying is already said then save yourself the trouble of typing it out again. I've no objection to reading somewhere else why you think the idea can work if certain other conditions are met, but "I've already been through this" doesn't explain in any way why you think my objections to the idea aren't well founded.

The proposal to come up with an alternative contract either creates a two-tier system that is still open for discrimination, or you're abolishing something then replacing it with something functionally identical (except it's open to all). Why not just open the current contract to all? Why would you deolish a building to rebuild the same building but with lifts and wheelchair ramps for disabled access, when you can simply adapt the current building by adding lifts and wheelchair ramps? In the light of other responses, as I said, it can also appear to be a bit sour grape-y, "well if marriage isn't what we say it is then nobody can have it at all", not that you mean it that way at all, but it can appear to be the equivalent of a kid losing a game taking it's ball home so nobody can play any more.

So the reason you say marriage is arbitrary is because it's discriminatory? I'm not having a go at all with this, I'm just genuinely trying to understand why this massive upheaval to the current system is preferable to simply opening out the availability of the current system to everyone. The vast majority of people view marriage as a big commitment to another person for life. That's not arbitrary, that's a decision by two pople to enter a contractual relationship. That is what is absent with simply being a long term couple or room-mates or friends or whatever. If that is open to all then there's nothing arbitrary about it at all, it's a very well defined legal and social declaration that you give this other person the right to make decisions like better survival chance vs having kids or whatever if the need arises. If you define that as arbitrary then every commercial contract is arbitrary, there's no point to it and companies should just send each other stuff and hope that the other lot pay for it on time.

Apart from denying that marriage rights exist (and whatever you say they do exist, and they are rights, as it stands right now, someone can sue the government if one of those rights is not upheld), and saying that marriage is arbitrary (as above) I haven't seen you making any points. I ignored the first one because it's just you stating that it should be X when it's Y, which is irrelevant, and I'm asking questions about the second one because all I see you replacing the contract with is something even more arbitrary, which I don't understand how that's supposed to be an improvement. Because you disagree with the decision to get involved in the first place isn't a good reason to get uninvolved now when systems have been built up around it. What you need now is to lay out the good reasons why, instead of just making the current system non-discriminatory we should tear the whole thing apart and then replace it with something retty much functionally identical to itself. I just don't see how that argument makes sense.
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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:55 pm

crispybits wrote:Firstly BBS, the one liners thing was about TGD's statement that the government should GTFO of marriage, but when asked how we overcome other problems he doesn't have any real proposals. Not your post. And yes it's fine that some people can throw out one liners, I'm not judging posts based on length, but if I am to be convinced that an idea is sound, then the objections do have to be overcome by someone at some point. Currently, based on the one liner, I am not convinced and I'm not going to spend any time or energy trying to improve an idea I do not believe is workable without massive upheaval that outweighs any benefits gained. If someone can make the case and deal with the objections, I'm open to that and could be convinced if a good case is made. (I also know that convincing me personally is irrelevant, but if change is going to be made then people are going to need to be convinced at some point)

Your idea of a common law contract sounds to me pretty similar to the "they can have marriage as long as they don't call it marriage" bigotry coming out of some religious sources about the gay marriage debate. We have a suitable contract now, and a minority is trying to prevent another minority from being allowed access to it. To have a 2 tier system of marriage and your common law contract under different names, even if the legalities are identical, is something that leaves the door wide open for discrimination. Names matter. (note I'm not saying you are bigoted, just that the idea sounds similar to a flawed one that religious groups propose)


lolwat

You asked "HOW CAN THIS BE DONE??!!" so I explained the process. Things don't need to be planned a prior for you to accept them--if you understand how things work....

crispybits wrote:TGD, you didn't answer the question. How long do I have to be with someone for the arbitrary line to be drawn that I can decide that 65% improved survival chance is preferable to them not ever having kids? I would contend that being married is a deliberate, planned and well thought out (in most cases) act by two people that serves as a very convenient way to make legal distinctions like this. Obviously there are exceptions, especially in Las Vegas, but generally people getting married is intended by those people as a social, legal and spiritual commitment. It's a line in the sand. If we do away with that line, where do we now draw the new one?

The only case I've made is that gay and straight marriage should be treated equally in every way, including in the name they are called. When people have criticised that position I have defended it. When people propose other positions, then if I am to keep an open mind it is inevitable that I will both come up with questions for clarification and problems I foresee with application of those positions to real life situations. That's not double standards, because I don't deny anyone else the opportunity to do the same to my position. I'm not expecting a fully codified legal document ready to go into the legislation books, but I do expect that if someone proposes something they should be willing to explain it, and tell me how it would work better than what we have now.


So you're backing away from the whole "50-page contract" standard?
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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:57 pm

Okay, trying to be more organized here, so bear with me. I'll start with what I think are the easiest points first.

(1) My complaining has little to do with you and more to do with having to either find what I typed before or retype it. My preference is retyping. Further, I was more interested in convincing premio that he was a theocrat than having this debate with you and/or Symmetry, which was what the original whining was about (on my part).

(2) The benefits associated with marriage are absolutely not rights. If the government took away the ability for a spouse to make a life decision on behalf of his or her wife or husband, there is no recourse for the spouse. If the government decided tomorrow to legislatively determine that spouses could not make life decisions on behalf of spouses, Husband X couldn't petition the court to reverse the new legislation under any constitutional principles. Rights (with some very few exceptions, benefits springing from marriage is not one of them) exist as a result of the Constitution and violations of such rights must be brought under constitutional principles. I can name a number of examples from your list that are simply not rights by any stretch of the imagination - the ability to file a joint income tax return; the ability to share in the deceased spouse's property (each state has a different rule); alimony payments. These are not rights, they are benefits or privileges granted by the government based upon the government-recognized status of two people and their contract with each other. If the government were to take away any of those benefits, they would not be taking away rights.

(3) Your example of building a new building versus installing wheelchair ramps is a good one and will help me with my illustration (or at least make you understand where I'm coming from). From a political theory standpoint, I'm essentially a constitutional libertarian. I believe that the U.S. federal government is only permitted to regulate and control that which it is expressly permitted to regulate and control by the U.S. Constitution. By providing regulations and benefits associated with the contract of marriage, apart from the benefits that marriage grants as a contract in and of itself, the government is overstepping its bounds from a constitutional perspective and from the perspective of my own expectations of the government. For me, marriage is a religious institution (Catholic in my circumstance). It is a religious contract (for lack of a better phrase). For some it may be a love contract. For others it may be a business contract. Or it could be some combination of those things. In any event, the government recognition, regulation, and provision of benefits with respect to marriage is one element of a host of other items that I do not believe the government should do.

So let's take your building example. The building you reference (marriage) is one of 5,000 buildings sitting in a town that is meant to house 5 buildings. I want to tear down that marriage building and 4,994 other buildings because the town was not meant to fit, nor should it fit, 5,000 buildings. Putting a ramp onto the marriage building is not going to do the job for me.

Furthermore, and unrelated, allowing gays to marry is like putting a ramp on the building and then not putting braille on the signs. The building is still going to be exclusionary of other groups that may want to enjoy the benefits of the building, but cannot precisely because the building exists as it currently exists. Marriage benefits as they currently exist (i.e. as a grant of the government) are ripe for being able to exclude certain groups of people, which is why, as I've indicated before, blacks and whites couldn't get married and gays can't get married. The Constitution ostensibly should correct this problem but our court system is at the mercy of the whims of the general public, in the same way as the legislature. Ultimately, gay marriage will not be acceptable federally unless a majority (or more) of the people in the country think it's okay. That is anathema to my vision of what the government should be. The only reason the majority, Congress, the president, and the courts can refuse to give benefits or federal recognition of gay marriage is because marriage is regulated and benefits are determined by the government. If the government didn't regulate or benefit marriage, the problem would not exist. As part of a larger effort, on my part, to shrink the role of federal government to its constitutionally acceptable levels while also, necessarily (necessarily I say!) letting people retain the most freedom, I would do away with the institution of marriage as a government-recognized institution.
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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:59 pm

thegreekdog wrote: Further, I was more interested in convincing premio that he was a theocrat than having this debate with you and/or Symmetry, which was what the original whining was about (on my part).

I was more interested in this too. Lets get back to that.


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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:00 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: Further, I was more interested in convincing premio that he was a theocrat than having this debate with you and/or Symmetry, which was what the original whining was about (on my part).

I was more interested in this too. Lets get back to that.


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I think premio took his Bible and went home.
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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:08 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
thegreekdog wrote: Further, I was more interested in convincing premio that he was a theocrat than having this debate with you and/or Symmetry, which was what the original whining was about (on my part).

I was more interested in this too. Lets get back to that.


--Andy


I think premio took his Bible and went home.

:( :( :(

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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:00 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
crispybits wrote:(3) I have no problem with polygamy so I'm with you there, the silly comparisons are bestiality or peadophilia. Informed adults of sound mind should be allowed to make contracts with other informed adults of sound mind in any way they like, as long as all parties know the marital status of all other parties then I see nothing wrong with someone having 100 marriage contracts with different people. The only criticism is that if I had 2 wives and they disagree on something while I'm in a coma or whatever there needs to be rules drafted around which one takes priority.

The problem with polygamy is similar to why bastardy was a problem in the past... too many kids without firm support. Today, we have both men and women having many kids that they cannot support, though the numbers of children women can have are inherently limited by nature and those a man can have not.

If polygamy is allowed, society would need it to be tied to support of children. That would open a dangerous pandoras box for all who have children (including, by-the-way homosexual unions). Easier to disallow polygamy than to regulate it appropriately.

Homosexuality bears no such threat. The only "threat" of homosexuality is allowing a very private behavior which some people dislike.


What? Where does this idea even come from? One can argue that the very origin of marriage and indeed still the most influential factor is that marriages are used to cement a family unit and raise children. Whether you define your unit as a nuclear family or a larger more unconventional one is one thing, but to say that group marriage would naturally decrease support for children I think has no factual basis. In fact I think it would increase support as there's a greater family pool for children to turn to, and strengthen families overall.

-TG
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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby tzor on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:22 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:The problem with polygamy is similar to why bastardy was a problem in the past... too many kids without firm support. Today, we have both men and women having many kids that they cannot support, though the numbers of children women can have are inherently limited by nature and those a man can have not.


I don't agree. Looking at the notion of marriage in a totally contract law point of view, a marriage is a corporation of two people with mutual liability. Both people in the corporation are liable for the rearing of the children (although there are still cultural biases that favor the mother over the father, this is the basis for child custody laws; loosely enforced though they may be). In the case of polygamy, then every member of the "corporation" is equally responsible for all children (those under the custody of the corporation until legal age is reached).

While the terminology does start to get strange (two polygamous groups can combine as a result of a "corporate merger") the whole thing can be controlled through corporate contract law.

In fact, you can expand the whole notion of marriage as corporation and get ... a publicly traded marriage? Shareholders to the family? Oh my.

I'm sensing a novel ... or perhaps a radio play.
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Re: Gay Marriage --- The Opposition, Please Clarify

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:53 am

tzor wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:The problem with polygamy is similar to why bastardy was a problem in the past... too many kids without firm support. Today, we have both men and women having many kids that they cannot support, though the numbers of children women can have are inherently limited by nature and those a man can have not.


I don't agree. Looking at the notion of marriage in a totally contract law point of view, a marriage is a corporation of two people with mutual liability. Both people in the corporation are liable for the rearing of the children (although there are still cultural biases that favor the mother over the father, this is the basis for child custody laws; loosely enforced though they may be). In the case of polygamy, then every member of the "corporation" is equally responsible for all children (those under the custody of the corporation until legal age is reached).

While the terminology does start to get strange (two polygamous groups can combine as a result of a "corporate merger") the whole thing can be controlled through corporate contract law.

In fact, you can expand the whole notion of marriage as corporation and get ... a publicly traded marriage? Shareholders to the family? Oh my.

I'm sensing a novel ... or perhaps a radio play.


You're right. In addition, there's the old addage, "it takes a village to raise a child," so the bigger this familial corporation, the better for the child.

As for "publicly traded marriages," they sort of went out with dowries. Shareholders to the family are expressed in Last Wills and Testaments and prenuptial contracts.
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