Conquer Club

Critics use the term to open and close debate on a myriad of world issues but rarely do they attempt to define it rationally. Members here have alleged that Muslim attacks on American diplomats around the world are justified due to American support of Zionism. In order to accept this we must establish the nature of Zionism as something evil, so I pose the following questions:

Was the movement an effort by religious fanatics to uproot a native population or do such portrayals constitute an existential fallacy?

Is the population of Israel composed of religious fanatics who seek to dominate and exterminate their neighbors, or do such descriptions more aptly apply to those neighbors?

Should Jews be, and have been allowed to obtain or purchase land in Israel, or was, and is the Arab opposition based on race and creed just?

GabonX wrote: In order to accept this we must establish the nature of Zionism as something evil, so I pose the following questions:

Ooh. oooh. Mr X sir, I call false premise.

Symmetry wrote:

GabonX wrote: In order to accept this we must establish the nature of Zionism as something evil, so I pose the following questions:

Ooh. oooh. Mr X sir, I call false premise.

Were you going to explain? We can change that part of the premise if necessary, but before we do that let's establish why that's necessary.

GabonX wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

GabonX wrote: In order to accept this we must establish the nature of Zionism as something evil, so I pose the following questions:

Ooh. oooh. Mr X sir, I call false premise.

Were you going to explain? We can change that part of the premise if necessary, but before we do that let's establish why that's necessary.

Why do you think that Zionism is necessarily evil?

Symmetry wrote:

GabonX wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

GabonX wrote: In order to accept this we must establish the nature of Zionism as something evil, so I pose the following questions:

Ooh. oooh. Mr X sir, I call false premise.

Were you going to explain? We can change that part of the premise if necessary, but before we do that let's establish why that's necessary.

Why do you think that Zionism is necessarily evil?

I don't, and your question is stupid.

Was the movement an effort by religious fanatics to uproot a native population or do such portrayals constitute an existential fallacy?

Fanatics or not, the Zionist movement required the uprooting of a native population, namely Palestinian Arabs, due to a religious belief that places a certain group of people as ones with special status due to race and creed ("chosen") above the rest of humanity. I would call such a belief the epitome of arrogance and most certainly a fanatic one. I would also call those who cheer on the denial of basic human rights fanatics as well.

Is the population of Israel composed of religious fanatics who seek to dominate and exterminate their neighbors, or do such descriptions more aptly apply to those neighbors?

See above. Also, see the Israeli settlements. Also, see Netanyahu's response to 1967 border compromise, calling those borders indefensible while Palestinians have been living on noncontinuous land since the formation of Israel.

Oh and don't give me this "well herpa derpa terrorists!" because if the original taking of Palestinian land never happened, would they perform terrorist acts anyway? Of course not. They'd have no motive, means or opportunity.

Arab opposition based on race and creed just?

Zionism is a belief based on race and creed. Anti-Zionism is based a reclamation of land taken by Zionists. Which is why not all anti-Zionists are Arabs.

GabonX wrote:Should Jews be, and have been allowed to obtain or purchase land in Israel, or was, and is the Arab opposition based on race and creed just?

Jews - or anyone - should be permitted to purchase land in Palestine or anywhere. However, if Jews - or anyone - take land by force in Palestine (or anywhere), then Palestinians are justified in attempting to retake it by force, either by themselves or in concert with allies. The fact that a cult has a myth or prophecy that says they are cosmically ordained to own a specific piece of property doesn't trump the realities of earthly real estate law.

ZIONISM: "We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it." - Israel Prime Minister Moshe Sharett

ANTI-ZIONISM: "The Jewish faith, as transmitted by the Almighty to our forefathers has not and will never countenance the zionist and nationalistic doctrines of the state of Israel. These false doctrines are compounded of atheism and anti-religious zionism, ideologies alien to Judaism. Let them not be misrepresented to the world as Jewish." - Central Rabbinical Congress of the USA and Canada

GabonX wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

GabonX wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

GabonX wrote: In order to accept this we must establish the nature of Zionism as something evil, so I pose the following questions:

Ooh. oooh. Mr X sir, I call false premise.

Were you going to explain? We can change that part of the premise if necessary, but before we do that let's establish why that's necessary.

Why do you think that Zionism is necessarily evil?

I don't, and your question is stupid.

Why do you want it to be proven evil then?

GabonX wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

GabonX wrote: In order to accept this we must establish the nature of Zionism as something evil, so I pose the following questions:

Ooh. oooh. Mr X sir, I call false premise.

Were you going to explain? We can change that part of the premise if necessary, but before we do that let's establish why that's necessary.

Because it's not at all necessary for Zionism to be "evil" in order for Zionism's enemies to consider America's support of it to be a reason to react against America. All that is necessary is that those others consider Zionism to be their enemy.

Symmetry wrote:

GabonX wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

GabonX wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

GabonX wrote: In order to accept this we must establish the nature of Zionism as something evil, so I pose the following questions:

Ooh. oooh. Mr X sir, I call false premise.

Were you going to explain? We can change that part of the premise if necessary, but before we do that let's establish why that's necessary.

Why do you think that Zionism is necessarily evil?

I don't, and your question is stupid.

Why do you want it to be proven evil then?

Gabon is saying that if the recent attacks are justified, then Zionism must be bad. If Zionism isn't bad, then the recent attacks are not justified.

[quote="GabonX
Should Jews be, and have been allowed to obtain or purchase land in Israel, or was, and is the Arab opposition based on race and creed just?[/quote]
This is the falsity. The truth is they have NOT generally fairly purchased lands.They rule Palestinien titles not valid, no matter how long families have occupied lands, or say that one member of a family who had no right to make a sale, did and that the sale is legitimate. This would not happen in reverse.

Olive groves and orange groves that have stood for hundreds of years were bulldozed without any real compensation to the farmers in order to build the walls.

Crimes against Palestinien property are rarely prosecuted, though a few recent, prominent cases have lead to some action against Israeli Jews.