Conquer Club

So my wife works for a fairly big company, currently at a more entry level position as this is what we decided would be best for our currently family situation. Over the last couple months, she has applied for positions that would be a step above hers, comparable to a team lead of sorts. They have a three step interview process and has reached the second step multiple times but never receives any sort of rejection notice or any other information as to where the process is at. Now on multiple occasions, a couple weeks after the first or second interview, the position gets cancelled, then a day or two later an exact same position is available again reporting to the same manager where the previous position was. Since this is a "new" position, the company requires her to follow the standard process for an internal applicant which is the three step process.

It seems that they just keep having these positions "open up" to give the interviewers practice while never intending on hiring anyone. I told her to send a bitching email to HR as all that is needed would be a rejection notice as to why she didn't make the cut or why the position was cancelled.

Anyone else ever encounter something similar to this or able provide any advice for me to relay to her?

My guess is the fact that she is a woman is hindering her acceptance. It seems they keep cancelling and creating a new position every time she gets to the next level, so someone at that point is ending her application by stopping the selection process and starting over.

Or there is someone specific within the firm they are wishing would apply but that person isn't.

I expect the first scenario is the most likely.

notyou2 wrote:My guess is the fact that she is a woman is hindering her acceptance. It seems they keep cancelling and creating a new position every time she gets to the next level, so someone at that point is ending her application by stopping the selection process and starting over.

Or there is someone specific within the firm they are wishing would apply but that person isn't.

I expect the first scenario is the most likely.

Based on this info provided, what makes you "expect" this is the most likely scenario?

There's not enough info to reasonably assume this. Companies (especially big companies) do a lot of stoopid things. Yes, a rejection notice or explanation would be nice... but lack of these is not proof or even evidence of sexism.

patrickaa317 wrote:So my wife works for a fairly big company, currently at a more entry level position as this is what we decided would be best for our currently family situation. Over the last couple months, she has applied for positions that would be a step above hers, comparable to a team lead of sorts. They have a three step interview process and has reached the second step multiple times but never receives any sort of rejection notice or any other information as to where the process is at. Now on multiple occasions, a couple weeks after the first or second interview, the position gets cancelled, then a day or two later an exact same position is available again reporting to the same manager where the previous position was. Since this is a "new" position, the company requires her to follow the standard process for an internal applicant which is the three step process.

It seems that they just keep having these positions "open up" to give the interviewers practice while never intending on hiring anyone. I told her to send a bitching email to HR as all that is needed would be a rejection notice as to why she didn't make the cut or why the position was cancelled.

Anyone else ever encounter something similar to this or able provide any advice for me to relay to her?

My advice, as usual, is the direct route. She should ask her supervisor if he/she knows what's going on, hoping to get a believable explanation there. If there isn't one, pursue it further up. I would say that after having gone through the process she has a few times, she's entitled to a good explanation.

patrickaa317 wrote:
It seems that they just keep having these positions "open up" to give the interviewers practice while never intending on hiring anyone.

This is possible (in part)... doesn't make it "nice" for candidates... nor does it make it "the right thing to do"... but it's a possible explanation and example of how big companies often do stoopid things.

In my view... I think it's bad management... and one reason to NOT look at this company as good place for long term employment. (i.e. if this is how they treat employees... it's bad management and an example of things "wrong" with the company.

patrickaa317 wrote:I told her to send a bitching email to HR as all that is needed would be a rejection notice as to why she didn't make the cut or why the position was cancelled.

This is a bad idea. HR's rule in a company is not to "help" employees... many people think this is the role of HR, but they are wrong. HR's role is to manage "personnel assets", and to protect the company. Sometimes this means they also help employees... but that is NOT their primary function.

A bitchin' email will do nothing. A polite unemotional and "off the record" conversation with the hiring or interviewing manager might be helpful. She may find that her manager is as annoyed or "in the dark" as she is... or she may find out the real reason this keeps happening. It's also possible she could get "the brush off"... but at least the attempt will have been made.... and even "the brush off" would tell her something.

Also... a professional, polite, unemotional conversation about the position will continue to reinforce her interest and (if handled correctly) her professionalism... which can only help her chances if the company ever does decide to move forward with the position.

It's not good to assume the worst. At the same time, I do think that this type of behavior on the company's part is "not professional". Their lack of professionalism may be a good reason to be open to other opportunities... but it would not excuse your wife's actions if she chooses the unprofessional route of blasting out a "bitchin' email".

Save the venting for the bar... or for online anonymous forums like this one.

Woodruff wrote:

patrickaa317 wrote:So my wife works for a fairly big company, currently at a more entry level position as this is what we decided would be best for our currently family situation. Over the last couple months, she has applied for positions that would be a step above hers, comparable to a team lead of sorts. They have a three step interview process and has reached the second step multiple times but never receives any sort of rejection notice or any other information as to where the process is at. Now on multiple occasions, a couple weeks after the first or second interview, the position gets cancelled, then a day or two later an exact same position is available again reporting to the same manager where the previous position was. Since this is a "new" position, the company requires her to follow the standard process for an internal applicant which is the three step process.

It seems that they just keep having these positions "open up" to give the interviewers practice while never intending on hiring anyone. I told her to send a bitching email to HR as all that is needed would be a rejection notice as to why she didn't make the cut or why the position was cancelled.

Anyone else ever encounter something similar to this or able provide any advice for me to relay to her?

My advice, as usual, is the direct route. She should ask her supervisor if he/she knows what's going on, hoping to get a believable explanation there. If there isn't one, pursue it further up. I would say that after having gone through the process she has a few times, she's entitled to a good explanation.

Ditto... to a point.

She is deserving of an explanation... but I don't like the term "entitled".

jimboston wrote:

patrickaa317 wrote:I told her to send a bitching email to HR as all that is needed would be a rejection notice as to why she didn't make the cut or why the position was cancelled.

A bitchin' email will do nothing. A polite unemotional and "off the record" conversation with the hiring or interviewing manager might be helpful.

I disagree with you that the conversation should be "off the record", but I do agree that it should be polite and professional.

jimboston wrote:Save the venting for the bar... or for online anonymous forums like this one.

Agreed.

jimboston wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

patrickaa317 wrote:So my wife works for a fairly big company, currently at a more entry level position as this is what we decided would be best for our currently family situation. Over the last couple months, she has applied for positions that would be a step above hers, comparable to a team lead of sorts. They have a three step interview process and has reached the second step multiple times but never receives any sort of rejection notice or any other information as to where the process is at. Now on multiple occasions, a couple weeks after the first or second interview, the position gets cancelled, then a day or two later an exact same position is available again reporting to the same manager where the previous position was. Since this is a "new" position, the company requires her to follow the standard process for an internal applicant which is the three step process.

It seems that they just keep having these positions "open up" to give the interviewers practice while never intending on hiring anyone. I told her to send a bitching email to HR as all that is needed would be a rejection notice as to why she didn't make the cut or why the position was cancelled.

Anyone else ever encounter something similar to this or able provide any advice for me to relay to her?

My advice, as usual, is the direct route. She should ask her supervisor if he/she knows what's going on, hoping to get a believable explanation there. If there isn't one, pursue it further up. I would say that after having gone through the process she has a few times, she's entitled to a good explanation.

Ditto... to a point. She is deserving of an explanation... but I don't like the term "entitled".

In this particular situation, I think it's a very appropriate term.

Woodruff wrote:

jimboston wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

patrickaa317 wrote:So my wife works for a fairly big company, currently at a more entry level position as this is what we decided would be best for our currently family situation. Over the last couple months, she has applied for positions that would be a step above hers, comparable to a team lead of sorts. They have a three step interview process and has reached the second step multiple times but never receives any sort of rejection notice or any other information as to where the process is at. Now on multiple occasions, a couple weeks after the first or second interview, the position gets cancelled, then a day or two later an exact same position is available again reporting to the same manager where the previous position was. Since this is a "new" position, the company requires her to follow the standard process for an internal applicant which is the three step process.

It seems that they just keep having these positions "open up" to give the interviewers practice while never intending on hiring anyone. I told her to send a bitching email to HR as all that is needed would be a rejection notice as to why she didn't make the cut or why the position was cancelled.

Anyone else ever encounter something similar to this or able provide any advice for me to relay to her?

My advice, as usual, is the direct route. She should ask her supervisor if he/she knows what's going on, hoping to get a believable explanation there. If there isn't one, pursue it further up. I would say that after having gone through the process she has a few times, she's entitled to a good explanation.

Ditto... to a point. She is deserving of an explanation... but I don't like the term "entitled".

In this particular situation, I think it's a very appropriate term.

If you approach your manager with the "attitude" that you are "entitled" to an answer you are less likely to actually get one. If you approach him/her "off the record", and position your request as a just that (a request)... "in light of the fact" that you have expressed your interest and interviewed several (?) times... I think you are more likely to get a valid answer.

I think we are splitting hairs a bit... but it's all in the approach.

jimboston wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

jimboston wrote:

Woodruff wrote:

patrickaa317 wrote:So my wife works for a fairly big company, currently at a more entry level position as this is what we decided would be best for our currently family situation. Over the last couple months, she has applied for positions that would be a step above hers, comparable to a team lead of sorts. They have a three step interview process and has reached the second step multiple times but never receives any sort of rejection notice or any other information as to where the process is at. Now on multiple occasions, a couple weeks after the first or second interview, the position gets cancelled, then a day or two later an exact same position is available again reporting to the same manager where the previous position was. Since this is a "new" position, the company requires her to follow the standard process for an internal applicant which is the three step process.

It seems that they just keep having these positions "open up" to give the interviewers practice while never intending on hiring anyone. I told her to send a bitching email to HR as all that is needed would be a rejection notice as to why she didn't make the cut or why the position was cancelled.

Anyone else ever encounter something similar to this or able provide any advice for me to relay to her?

My advice, as usual, is the direct route. She should ask her supervisor if he/she knows what's going on, hoping to get a believable explanation there. If there isn't one, pursue it further up. I would say that after having gone through the process she has a few times, she's entitled to a good explanation.

Ditto... to a point. She is deserving of an explanation... but I don't like the term "entitled".

In this particular situation, I think it's a very appropriate term.

If you approach your manager with the "attitude" that you are "entitled" to an answer you are less likely to actually get one. If you approach him/her "off the record", and position your request as a just that (a request)... "in light of the fact" that you have expressed your interest and interviewed several (?) times... I think you are more likely to get a valid answer.

I think we are splitting hairs a bit... but it's all in the approach.

I think we're actually in agreement on the approach...diplomacy is the way. I simply think we disagree on the potential "landing"...she is entitled to a good explanation and if the diplomatic, tactful discussion/request gets brushed off, then she should push further until she does get a good explanation.

Yeah man, tell her to ask WTF. I'd even say it would speak well of her, having a healthy self-esteem, might make them realize it.

Woodruff wrote:I think we're actually in agreement on the approach...diplomacy is the way. I simply think we disagree on the potential "landing"...she is entitled to a good explanation and if the diplomatic, tactful discussion/request gets brushed off, then she should push further until she does get a good explanation.

Perhaps she should pursue an explanation past one conversation.

Sometimes you find you'll never get one though... in which case it's usually better to stop trying, take the high road, but keep your eyes open for other opportunities (at other companies). If you pursue your "entitled explanation" too far... it's likely to just alienate management further, which leads to worse outcomes.

Also, there's a possibility she will get the honest reason... but depending on her personality and on how the explanation is presented; it's possible she might not "buy it". With the "entitled" attitude you are likely to alienate people who have given you their best explanation... whereas with the "cool front" you will demonstrate a better attitude which will help you in the long run.

nietzsche wrote:Yeah man, tell her to ask WTF. I'd even say it would speak well of her, having a healthy self-esteem, might make them realize it.

It will speak well of her if she asks politely.

if she walks into a manager as says "WTF" the conversation is over before it starts.

(THOUGH OF COURSE... the correct "approach" is dependent in part on the personalities of this woman, and her manager; she must also factor in her relationship with the manager, and the general environment of the company. My advice thus far is based on semi-professional retail type position... that's the impression I got from the OP. If we were talking about employment in a Tow Truck company then the approach may be completely different and a "WTF" might be very appropriate for THAT company. In general though a polite and professional demeanor is rarely a negative.)

patrickaa317 wrote:So my wife works for a fairly big company, currently at a more entry level position as this is what we decided would be best for our currently family situation. Over the last couple months, she has applied for positions that would be a step above hers, comparable to a team lead of sorts. They have a three step interview process and has reached the second step multiple times but never receives any sort of rejection notice or any other information as to where the process is at. Now on multiple occasions, a couple weeks after the first or second interview, the position gets cancelled, then a day or two later an exact same position is available again reporting to the same manager where the previous position was. Since this is a "new" position, the company requires her to follow the standard process for an internal applicant which is the three step process.

It seems that they just keep having these positions "open up" to give the interviewers practice while never intending on hiring anyone. I told her to send a bitching email to HR as all that is needed would be a rejection notice as to why she didn't make the cut or why the position was cancelled.

Anyone else ever encounter something similar to this or able provide any advice for me to relay to her?

I work for a big company that does work for big companies and I've never really heard of this. I'll give my personal example later, but it sounds like the company isn't sure if they want the position at all. There is also the potential that the company does not think there is anyone qualified for the position (no offense intended). They shouldn't play games though. I would suggest that your wife ask if the position opens up to give the interviewers practice, but I would expect the answer to be no, even if the correct answer is yes.

At my firm, there are specific things one has to do to move up (total hours worked, total revenue from projects sold, etc.) and specific, written reviews. The written reviews need to call for promotion and the specific goals need to be met. That being said, there are many cases where all goals are met and all written reviews call for promotion where the person simply doesn't get promoted. Oftentimes these are "business" reasons (i.e. the company doesn't think it can support the person being in the new position).

Woodruff wrote:[
My advice, as usual, is the direct route. She should ask her supervisor if he/she knows what's going on, hoping to get a believable explanation there. If there isn't one, pursue it further up. I would say that after having gone through the process she has a few times, she's entitled to a good explanation.

Woody, I think your suggestion is a very sound one. This is how I have approached issues in the past and in my experience it gets good results. My only addition to this would be to act "dumb" if you will. What I mean by this is that she should act as though she is baffled by the results but not as if there was any foul play at work. This will most likely get her the answers she needs without labeling her a "troublemaker". Just my two cents or more appropriately one cent as I am just adding to Woody's, in my opinion, very good advice.
I also agree that jumping to the conclusion that sexism is involved would be a mistake.

Glass ceiling?

patrickaa317 wrote:So my wife works for a fairly big company, currently at a more entry level position as this is what we decided would be best for our currently family situation. Over the last couple months, she has applied for positions that would be a step above hers, comparable to a team lead of sorts. They have a three step interview process and has reached the second step multiple times but never receives any sort of rejection notice or any other information as to where the process is at. Now on multiple occasions, a couple weeks after the first or second interview, the position gets cancelled, then a day or two later an exact same position is available again reporting to the same manager where the previous position was. Since this is a "new" position, the company requires her to follow the standard process for an internal applicant which is the three step process.

It seems that they just keep having these positions "open up" to give the interviewers practice while never intending on hiring anyone. I told her to send a bitching email to HR as all that is needed would be a rejection notice as to why she didn't make the cut or why the position was cancelled.

Anyone else ever encounter something similar to this or able provide any advice for me to relay to her?

Sometimes, employers want to provide an opportunity in which the applicant shows initiative. So, sometimes, they may be expecting the 'right one for the job' to follow-up about the position. E.g. calling them back or emailing them sometime after the 2nd interview to see what's happening.

This could be the case. Or they could be doing this for practice, or maybe there's a misunderstanding or the observed facts are actually false.

Funkyterrance wrote:

Woodruff wrote:[
My advice, as usual, is the direct route. She should ask her supervisor if he/she knows what's going on, hoping to get a believable explanation there. If there isn't one, pursue it further up. I would say that after having gone through the process she has a few times, she's entitled to a good explanation.

Woody, I think your suggestion is a very sound one. This is how I have approached issues in the past and in my experience it gets good results. My only addition to this would be to act "dumb" if you will. What I mean by this is that she should act as though she is baffled by the results but not as if there was any foul play at work. This will most likely get her the answers she needs without labeling her a "troublemaker".

Yes, I agree with this. Even if you suspect the worst, play it as if you have no idea that would be possible.

I have seen this happen a LOT, usually becuase they don't want to hre someone who might technically be "more qualified", but who say,no one likes or whatever.

The above advice, to ask, but to absolutely not assume there is any kind of "foul play", definitely not discrimination. In fact, best thing is to ask "how can I be better presentable at the next interview" (or something along those lines). That opens up the communication by essentially saying "hey, there must be a problem with me, I want to fix it....".

In rare cases, companies will elevate someone because they then go through a new probation period and they can then turn around and fire them. I doubt they would keep posting the same job, though, unless maybe the person they want to be able to fire is not the one they would have to promote.

Teh other thing to do is to be sure and write down everything that is happening -- jobs completed, any awards or even compliments as well as any complaints. That way, should anything develop.. at least you have a written record to back you up. If your company has rules about "owning" anything you write on at work.. do it at home, but not in a way that would breach any kind of confidentiality rules. (instead of saying "we just completed the shield design for the fmgh" say completed project that represented 5% of the companies' work, I contributed x %... or I did the graphics and layout, supervisor said I did a good job)