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Romney was Better than Obama

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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:10 am

Phatscotty wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:I'm sure people said the same thing to General Washington as to the odds that he would ever, EVER defeat the largest and richest most powerful military in the world with an ill-funded rag-tag group of rebels........
Washington would have lost if the second largest and richest and most powerful military in the world hadn't come to his aid for reasons of their own.

Not to take anything away from Washington. He was a good, bold leader and fought well, but without the French he would ultimately have been ground down.



Phatscotty wrote:However, Ron Paul did not win the nomination to run for president in 2012, Mitt Romney did. Ron Paul did everything he could, and actually won the majority of delegates from 13 states; I call that 'Progress' and a good start of something that is still growing. And of the choice between 1 of 2 people who were going to be our next president, specifically concerning the original opinion about 'Mitt Romney and Barack Obama are the same!', I simply stated Romney was a better choice than Obama. Can you dig that???

Well, I happen to disagree. As bad as things are under Obama, I suspect they would have been even worse under Romney. Still, that's not what I was criticizing you for. What I'm calling you on is this fantasy that Ron Paul's candidacy was "a good start of something." Rather, it was an end of something. The establishment Republicans learned some new tricks for how to control and manipulate the convention. The next Ron Paul will have the cards stacked against him much more cleverly. No matter how many delegates the outsiders bring, the insiders will find a way to disqualify and/or exclude and/or subvert and/or manipulate and/or buy them.

People who bet against the house always lose in the end. They might go on a little winning streak, but it's an illusion. In the end, the house sets the odds and makes the rules and they will not tolerate losing. The only solution is to wake up, walk out the door, and open a new house across the street.


I disagree too, and that's fine. I hope you are wrong about this being 'the end'. I do know one thing, if we as a country are ever going to get on a path that both you and I and the majority of Americans agree on, it's gonna take more than everything we can do; it's gonna take Faith. I don't blame you for not having any here, and I do appreciate you actually state what you think would be a solution rather than just take easy path and point the finger of blame. And on that I would say my fantasy is not that 'Ron Paul started a good thing'; I think we are past that now and on to something much along the lines of my perspective on the matter. And that is Ron Paul's son Rand Paul having a much more realistic chance of winning a Presidential election. My fantasy would be that Rand Paul leaves the Republican Party and runs for President in 2016 as a Libertarian or Independent candidate. I admit that would likely have to be centered around another fantasy, that being a significant third party candidate cracking the Demican-Repuclicrat one party control of the Presidential Debate Commission. If anyone could do that, I believe it's Rand Paul.

Besides, if we don't try, then I can guarantee you 100% what will happen in the future concerning the issues you and I and many others agree on but Republicans and Democrats will 'never' allow to happen; nothing.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby tzor on Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:15 am

Dukasaur wrote:You just don't get it, do you?

The Republican Party is the party of funneling money from the taxpayers to the military-industrial complex. They will never, ever tolerate any genuine pro-liberty reforms. For 75 years they have put the same libertarian promises in their campaign rhetoric, and in all that time they have never upheld any of them. Stupid, gullible suckers keep buying it, and ALWAYS, without fail, get burned. Do you really think it's a coincidence that there's always some libertarian or quasi-libertarian that seems like the "rising star" in the Republican party, and always gets cut down just before the moment when it seems he will make a difference? These little starlets are permitted so that they suck money and volunteers away from the Libertarian party, but they will never be allowed to hold the keys of power.


I have to disagree. First of all, let's understand that the driving force is the money to the party; this generates the flow from the taxpayers to those who funnel money to the party ... at a very good return on investment I might add.

Second of all, the party is the party of crony capitalism of which the military-industrial complex is but one element.

They are pretty much resistant to pro-liberty reforms, but occasionally the bricks fall loose from the castle (Eric Cantor being that rare exception).
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby tzor on Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:22 am

Dukasaur wrote:Well, I happen to disagree. As bad as things are under Obama, I suspect they would have been even worse under Romney.


I disagree with your disagreement. I think you would have had a more engaged president, who would have been better on the optics and able to work with the other side. The results would have been better than the current condition. How much would be a matter of debate.

Dukasaur wrote:Still, that's not what I was criticizing you for. What I'm calling you on is this fantasy that Ron Paul's candidacy was "a good start of something." Rather, it was an end of something. The establishment Republicans learned some new tricks for how to control and manipulate the convention. The next Ron Paul will have the cards stacked against him much more cleverly. No matter how many delegates the outsiders bring, the insiders will find a way to disqualify and/or exclude and/or subvert and/or manipulate and/or buy them.


I'm going to disagree with you here as well. It's important to note that Ron Paul didn't really "start anything" except expose the truth to libertarians. The result is the growing new breed of libertarian, like Rand Paul, who can walk into a "liberal" university and get a standing ovation because there is really nothing liberal about the progressive left and there is still "liberal" in "libertarian." And since it is still easier to splinter the Republican Party than the Democratic Party, things continue to get interesting.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby oVo on Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:12 pm

The two party plutocracy won't be broken any time soon and the splintering of these dominant groups is probably the best we can hope for. Only the voting population can break the political grip strangling this country... at the polls. Unfortunately the last decade pretty much shows voters to be ignorant and uninformed.

Many ballots are cast simulating voting for the home team, as if party affiliation is some form of legitimate qualification for holding office.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby oVo on Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:14 pm

oh yeah... Romney was not, and is not better than Obama.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby tzor on Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:26 pm

oVo wrote:oh yeah... Romney was not, and is not better than Obama.


Well, first of all you said "was not." Since Romney was never POTUS, one has to look elsewhere to compare him to the current POTUS.

So let's take a look at the 2002 Winter Olympics ...

Before Romney took the position, the event was running $379 million short of its revenue goals.

Romney restructured the organization's leadership and policies. He reduced budgets and boosted fundraising, alleviating the concerns of corporate sponsors while recruiting new ones.

Despite the initial fiscal shortfall, the Games ended up with a surplus of $100 million.


Let's compare this to Obama and ... (sound of crickets) ... oh wait, that's impossible. Obama never ran anything in his life. He was a community organizer and once he became POTUS he continued no not run anything in his life.

Let's try this again.

The swearing in of Romney as the 70th governor of Massachusetts took place on January 2, 2003.

He faced a Massachusetts state legislature with large Democratic majorities in both houses, and had picked his cabinet and advisors based more on managerial abilities than partisan affiliation.

Upon entering office in the middle of a fiscal year, he faced an immediate $650 million shortfall and a projected $3 billion deficit for the next year.

Through a combination of spending cuts, increased fees, and removal of corporate tax loopholes, the state achieved surpluses of around $600–700 million during Romney's last two full fiscal years in office, although it began running deficits again after that.


And Obama's record on deficit reduction was ... (will those crickets please shut up) ...

Based on performances, Romney is far better than Obama. Then again, a potted cacti is far better than Obama.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:36 pm

tzor wrote:Based on performances, Romney is far better than Obama.

This true. Since Romney has never been president, we don't know what his performance is or would be. Lebron James would probably make a pretty good NFL football player. But I only have his 27 touchdown highschool stats to go on. :D


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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:59 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
tzor wrote:Based on performances, Romney is far better than Obama.

This true. Since Romney has never been president, we don't know what his performance is or would be. Lebron James would probably make a pretty good NFL football player. But I only have his 27 touchdown highschool stats to go on. :D


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Exactly....

I knew PLENTY of people who happily voted for Nixon, but if you judged by what people said after his resignation... Mickie Mouse got more votes!!

If there is one thing EVERY president has agreed upon (every high level elected official, for that matter), its that everything changes once you are elected. No one finds it as easy to get things done as they thought it would be, all face more complications and all face situations they truly did not imagine beforehand.

We try to judge how they will do the job based on what they say, but the real truth is no one really knows in advance. That is a big reason why incumbents, even unpopular ones, are often hard to vote out.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby patches70 on Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:49 pm

Phatscotty wrote:How Romney was different/better than Obama reason #37 - RUSSIA/Putin



I like this quaint little conversation, two guys trying desperately to convince everyone that we need them to protect us. From all these "national security" threats.

The one thing they both fail to realize, or won't admit, is that the biggest threat to United States national security is United States politicians.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:06 am

patches70 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:How Romney was different/better than Obama reason #37 - RUSSIA/Putin



I like this quaint little conversation, two guys trying desperately to convince everyone that we need them to protect us. From all these "national security" threats.

The one thing they both fail to realize, or won't admit, is that the biggest threat to United States national security is United States politicians.


I don't disagree with that. But I still like to see Obama laughing at the guy for saying Putin means business. 'THE COLD WAR IS OVER!!!' Looking back, that could turn out to be one of the biggest Obama blunders yet...
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:07 am

Phatscotty wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Image


If he thinks that's funny, wait until Boehner drops a few million into Michigan to knock him off in the 2014 primary. The mop-up operations are almost complete.

Now we just wait around until 2024 to see what the next insurgent movement is to have a brief moment in the spotlight.

"Justin, I saved a spot for you, Allen and the rest of the gang on the sofa next to me!"
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The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance



As much as you have been right about some things here and you could be right about some other things here, you were wrong about this one. On the contrary and the bright side as well, what you thought would happen to Amash instead happened to Eric Cantor, and without the millions 8-)
Erstwhile, you were right about what 'they' would try to do to Amash, just wrong that it would work like usual...which I opine for one main reason is because 'WE The People' have grown strong and know where we stand and most importantly why we stand where we do, and we aren't going to sit down, sit out, or sit back anymore.

Rep. Justin Amash’s Controversial Victory Speech May Not Have Been the Nicest, But It Sure Was Honest
This one is for you too Dukky


As you can see in the last bit of his victory speech above, Rep. Justin Amash (R-Michigan) is not your typical Congressman. The Libertarian-Republican is often closely tied to Ron Paul, and often the lone “nay” vote on legislation that enjoys broad bipartisan support.
And while the Chamber of Commerce and other pro-big business entities targeted Amash for the Republican primaries and recruited Brian Ellis, a millionaire businessman, to run against him, Amash defeated Ellis by 14 points last night despite being outspent. However, Amash was not content with just defeating Ellis; he wanted to settle some political scores, and he did it in a very unconventional victory speech.


http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/165167- ... ry-speech/
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby patches70 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:38 am

Phatscotty wrote:I don't disagree with that. But I still like to see Obama laughing at the guy for saying Putin means business. 'THE COLD WAR IS OVER!!!' Looking back, that could turn out to be one of the biggest Obama blunders yet...


But, PS, what exactly has Putin done to the US?

Putin stood up for Assad, but we see now that Assad is definitely the lesser of two evils, right? Unless ISIS are somehow the good guys, which last year to us they were because they were fighting Assad. Now we seem to want to wipe them off the map. If we had just left Assad alone he may well have wiped out ISIS a long time ago.

The Ukraine? The Ukraine rests firmly in the Russian sphere of influence, not the US'. The US broke it's promise to Russia not to expand NATO and here we are trying to bring NATO to Russia's doorstep. Tell me, is a war with Russia worth it over Ukraine? Or Georgia? Since we seem to want to admit those two into NATO, that's what it means, that we have to go to war to defend them.

Never once has it ever mattered to the US about Ukraine and who controlled her.

The only thing that Russia is doing that is really a threat to the US is Russia attempting to destroy the petrodollar and the reserve currency status of the US dollar. Now that might be reason enough for the US to get belligerent. But ignores the US' own actions that have led to this particular issue. The US has taken advantage of her position as the owner of the reserve currency, predictably, and abused that power. Not to mention that in the history of civilization reserve currency status never lasts forever anyway. Tell me, PS, is protecting our reserve currency status worth risking nuclear war?

Putin is not looking to restore the old Soviet order. Contrary to what some try to convince everyone that is what is happening. Romney is just as wrong as Obama in that video.

The only real difference I see in Obama's foreign policy and Bush Jr's is that Bush was more in your face while Obama prefers covert means to achieve regime changes. I don't know exactly which is worse, an argument could be made either way.


No, Russia isn't a threat to US national security. Iran isn't a threat to US national security. The biggest threat to US national security is US actions egged on by neocon hypocrites politicians who grasp desperately to remain relevant after previously advocating bringing democracy by the point of a bayonet. The Founding Fathers would be horrified at the shenanigans we are doing.

I just see two guys arguing over what monster lurks under the bed but with no responsible parent to tell these children that there is no such thing as monsters under the bed and to just go to sleep.

The sooner all of us finally say to both the democrats and republicans- "You both suck balls and neither party deserves to hold the office of town dogcatcher" the sooner the US can get back on the path that our Founders intended.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby tzor on Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:01 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:I knew PLENTY of people who happily voted for Nixon, but if you judged by what people said after his resignation... Mickie Mouse got more votes!!


Nixon was before my time. :D

However, given all the facts at the time, I would have definitely voted for Nixon over McGovern.

My opinion of him after his reelection would have dropped considerably.

Personally I think the resignation of Spiro Agnew was worse for the country long term. This caused Ford to become VPOTUS and then POTUS.

In April 1973, when revelations about Watergate began to surface, Agnew was the choice of 35 percent of Republican voters to be the next Republican nominee for President, while then-California Governor Ronald Reagan was second on the Gallup poll.


Had Nixon went with the polls and not the politics (Ford was the minority leader) we could have had Reagan instead of Ford and the entire history of the world would have been vastly different (NO CARTER). My retirement home on the Moon would have been built by now.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:06 am

patches70 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I don't disagree with that. But I still like to see Obama laughing at the guy for saying Putin means business. 'THE COLD WAR IS OVER!!!' Looking back, that could turn out to be one of the biggest Obama blunders yet...


But, PS, what exactly has Putin done to the US?

Putin stood up for Assad, but we see now that Assad is definitely the lesser of two evils, right? Unless ISIS are somehow the good guys, which last year to us they were because they were fighting Assad. Now we seem to want to wipe them off the map. If we had just left Assad alone he may well have wiped out ISIS a long time ago.

The Ukraine? The Ukraine rests firmly in the Russian sphere of influence, not the US'. The US broke it's promise to Russia not to expand NATO and here we are trying to bring NATO to Russia's doorstep. Tell me, is a war with Russia worth it over Ukraine? Or Georgia? Since we seem to want to admit those two into NATO, that's what it means, that we have to go to war to defend them.

Never once has it ever mattered to the US about Ukraine and who controlled her.

The only thing that Russia is doing that is really a threat to the US is Russia attempting to destroy the petrodollar and the reserve currency status of the US dollar. Now that might be reason enough for the US to get belligerent. But ignores the US' own actions that have led to this particular issue. The US has taken advantage of her position as the owner of the reserve currency, predictably, and abused that power. Not to mention that in the history of civilization reserve currency status never lasts forever anyway. Tell me, PS, is protecting our reserve currency status worth risking nuclear war?

Putin is not looking to restore the old Soviet order. Contrary to what some try to convince everyone that is what is happening. Romney is just as wrong as Obama in that video.

The only real difference I see in Obama's foreign policy and Bush Jr's is that Bush was more in your face while Obama prefers covert means to achieve regime changes. I don't know exactly which is worse, an argument could be made either way.


No, Russia isn't a threat to US national security. Iran isn't a threat to US national security. The biggest threat to US national security is US actions egged on by neocon hypocrites politicians who grasp desperately to remain relevant after previously advocating bringing democracy by the point of a bayonet. The Founding Fathers would be horrified at the shenanigans we are doing.

I just see two guys arguing over what monster lurks under the bed but with no responsible parent to tell these children that there is no such thing as monsters under the bed and to just go to sleep.

The sooner all of us finally say to both the democrats and republicans- "You both suck balls and neither party deserves to hold the office of town dogcatcher" the sooner the US can get back on the path that our Founders intended.

=D> =D> =D>
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby oVo on Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:11 am

tzor wrote:Had Nixon went with the polls and not the politics (Ford was the minority leader) we could have had Reagan instead of Ford and the entire history of the world would have been vastly different (NO CARTER). My retirement home on the Moon would have been built by now.

Let's see... Nixon was a crook who pardoned a midwest mob boss and used their money to fund his Watergate coverup, Agnew got busted for corruption, Reagan vetoed sanctions against apartheid in South Africa and I'm still waiting for his trickle down economics to reach me.

Gerald Ford pardoned Nixon & some of his conspirators and gave Saturday Night Live a lot of material. What a great bunch of guys... and you dis the peanut farmer president because he lusted after women in his heart instead of fucking them outright or because he couldn't resolve the Iran hostage fiasco? When Jimmy's post president activities have been extremely unselfish and beyond the realm of consideration by most of his counterparts.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby patches70 on Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:40 am

oVo wrote:
tzor wrote:Had Nixon went with the polls and not the politics (Ford was the minority leader) we could have had Reagan instead of Ford and the entire history of the world would have been vastly different (NO CARTER). My retirement home on the Moon would have been built by now.

Let's see... Nixon was a crook who pardoned a midwest mob boss and used their money to fund his Watergate coverup, Agnew got busted for corruption, Reagan vetoed sanctions against apartheid in South Africa and I'm still waiting for his trickle down economics to reach me.

Gerald Ford pardoned Nixon & some of his conspirators and gave Saturday Night Live a lot of material. What a great bunch of guys... and you dis the peanut farmer president because he lusted after women in his heart instead of fucking them outright or because he couldn't resolve the Iran hostage fiasco? When Jimmy's post president activities have been extremely unselfish and beyond the realm of consideration by most of his counterparts.


I don't know why you are hating on Nixon so much, Obama is a crook as well with scandals that put Watergate to shame.

Not only that but Nixon's accomplishments are vast.
Let's see, Nixon got the US out of Vietnam.
His administration pulled China out of her isolation.
Nixon negotiated one of the greatest arms treaty ever with SALT I.
He defended Israel during the Yom Kipper with a massive airdrop and warning the Russians off who were about to get involved against Israel.
Nixon pulled Egypt out of the Soviet Bloc and into America's orbit. The same Egypt which later not only achieved peace with Israel but also recognized Israel's right as a State. A peace which lasts to this day.
Nixon ended the draft.
When Nixon took office only 10% of Southern schools were desegregated and when he left 70% were desegregated.
The only Americans to have ever walked on the moon did so during Nixon's terms.
Nixon increased social security benefits and indexed those benefits to inflation.
Nixon created the EPA.
Nixon created OSHA.
Nixon created the Nation Cancer Society.
Nixon ended Bretton Woods, he is the father of the modern economic era. (For better or worse, non can argue the benefits of this era).
Nixon built one of the greatest American political coalitions ever that is rivaled only by FDR.

During Johnson's time in 1968 we had the Tet Offensive which broke the Johnson administration, Dr King was assassinated, race riots in 100 cities, Bobby Kennedy assassinated and the Democratic party smashed in the convention and on the streets of Chicago. Chaos in the US and Nixon turned that chaos around.

Nixon pulled a 49 state landslide crush of McGovern and enabled the republicans to hold the White House for 20 of the next 24 years.




So let us not forget Nixon's accomplishments. For history has been more kind to Nixon than you some who only focus on Watergate. I doubt History will be so kind to the current administration who's accomplishments don't come close to Nixon's and who's scandals outdo Nixon's. Obama will also be remembered for his scandals and Obama's legacy may be as Johnson's when viewed with the hindsight of history. That is the collapse of democrat party control in the government as it was after Johnson. We shall see.

Now, Carter is probably the most honest President the US has ever had in the 20th century, but he was also one of the most ineffective President's in the 20th century. He's accomplished a lot more after his Presidency than he ever did while President. Some of it good, while some things not so good when viewed in the prism of history.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby owenshooter on Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:40 pm

patches70 wrote:So let us not forget Nixon's accomplishments.

there is so much embellishment and half truths throughout that post, it is entirely laughable... wow... double wow...-eJn
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:13 am

patches70 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I don't disagree with that. But I still like to see Obama laughing at the guy for saying Putin means business. 'THE COLD WAR IS OVER!!!' Looking back, that could turn out to be one of the biggest Obama blunders yet...


But, PS, what exactly has Putin done to the US?


I see your point, but I think there is something to say in the realm of soft power. I think Putin/Russia is much more aggressive and more bold with Obama because he does not respect Obama, and Obama certainly does not command respect, he's a total pushover. Not that I am for the USA drawing red lines in other people's (Syria) business, but there is something to be said about the error of making threats if a line is crossed, and then when it is crossed, Obama balks. And the same goes for terrorist organizations, they too are more aggressive and more bold. They see the USA as a paper tiger. I know it's better to not be seen as a paper tiger, at least on paper. Of course Romney would be making errors too, maybe even the same errors. And concerning the 'we don't have a strategy' statement Obama made to the world a couple weeks ago, that's like announcing over the loudspeaker on the first day of highschool that ya don't know how to fight. I don't think Romney is incompetent as I do Obama. And based on my preference for less taxes, less spending, less government, I would have to go with Romney over Obama. Sure, it might only be a small step towards the right direction, but to me, that is better than any step in the wrong direction. Assad the lesser of two evils? Sure. And Obama gave money and guns illegally to the greater of two evils, and now ISIS is driving around in American vehicles sporting American weapons beheading/banishing Christians and anyone else who will not immediately convert to Islam. Romney the lesser of two evils? Sure.

All I'm sayin is, given the choice, I don't choose the dipshit. I admit we did not have a great choice, and have been fully aware the entire time we as a people did not earn a fair choice. That is why I'm ALL about the primaries and caucuses. People think they are just gonna be handed a real choice, and that's why Republicans and Democrats get away with it all the time. People sit out voting altogether, they get away with it all the more. We have to earn a real choice. Honestly, if even 5% more Americans got involved in the primary process, it would have a tremendous impact on our choice for president. Granted the majority of Americans barely know how the Democratic process works aside from finally spending an hour making up their mind 3 days before November 5th, we will continue to get the government we deserve, continue to get lesser of two evils choices. In the mean time they keep telling me I'm interrupting their hours upon hours deciding fantasy football picks with my 'politic stuff'. Don't get me wrong I am thankful we are free enough to spend so much time on games, but there are consequences to tuning out of reality. I don't blame people either for wanting to ignore politics, I understand. Blaming and complaining or even checking out altogether is the easiest thing to do in the world, the truth and the hard work it takes and the knowledge base along with gained wisdom and the underdog scoring an upset is the probably the hardest thing. But I do believe we are on the right path to get that underdog, to give them the support they will need, for more people to be educated and get involved with the process.

patches70 wrote:The sooner all of us finally say to both the democrats and republicans- "You both suck balls and neither party deserves to hold the office of town dogcatcher" the sooner the US can get back on the path that our Founders intended.


And even though that's the way a majority of Americans think and feel, that's probably not gonna happen until they are motivated by an empty rumble in their stomach. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for any third party candidate that has at least some name recognition and can articulate their values to the American people. Sorry, but of the very VERY small % of people who are familiar with Gary Johnson, I would bet that a great many of them only remember him as the guy who told a funny dog poo joke in the first republican primary and then dropped out soon after. I fully respect the strategy of third parties using the major party's platform to be heard, but one has to stick with it longer than 2.2 seconds which means they also need to have the ability to raise money as well as spend it effectively and creatively. The mere fact that the overwhelming majority do not know who Gary Johnson is told me all I needed to know about his chances to win president, whether I liked it or not. I said at the time Johnson should have got serious about it and caused a ruckus at the presidential debate,m even get arrested making a point he should be heard, but his silence showed me he wasn't as serious as one will need to be to ever have a shot at the 1 party system. Believe me, when that person comes around, I will be right there in a heartbeat 110%. It just didn't happen in 2012. In 2012, it was Romney or Obama. Like it or not.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:39 am

Dude, please the "enter" key every now and then. No one wants to read 6' by 6' blocks of words.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby owenshooter on Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:45 am

discussion over...-eJn

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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby patches70 on Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:47 pm

Now, PS, we just going to have a little conversation here, all right? I'll start by saying I get it, you care about your country and you don't want to see her come to harm. You don't want to see your countrymen go through greater toils than they have to. If you really are honest with yourself, everyone feels basically the same way, even those who you'd consider political opponents and who you think are wrong in what direction or what should be done.

So that's where the real disagreements come, disagreements over what to do.

BBS always brings up the excellent point of unrealistic expectations of government. And this point in mind is where I diverge from some of your thinking in regards to if Romney would be better than Obama. Of course he wouldn't! Why? Because we are talking about government. Romney is as much a statist as Obama. Republican, democrat, they are worship at the alter of government. So there is no way one can objectively state that Romney would have been better than Obama. It would have just been different, and not that much different even. All that changes is different jockeys on the horses which still run around the exact same racetrack.






Phatscotty wrote:I see your point, but I think there is something to say in the realm of soft power. I think Putin/Russia is much more aggressive and more bold with Obama because he does not respect Obama, and Obama certainly does not command respect, he's a total pushover.


See, from your perspective you say that, but is that objective? You say Obama doesn't command respect, but why should he be able to command anything other than what he is allowed in the Constitution? Why should the US president be commanding anything from any other country?
And I don't think Russia is any more aggressive because of Obama. If you remember Russia gave Georgia a good beating (Georgia deserved that beating as well, IMO) and it was Bush in charge. Would you say Bush is the same pushover as Obama?

Bush and Obama both had the same objectives, but just different methods is all. And not all that different either. Bush preferred overt methods mainly while Obama prefers covert efforts, but they both engaged in both, did they not? And with about the same success. Romney would have been the exact same, using overt and covert efforts to manipulate geo politics with the same lack of foresight to the future. And still using the exact same justification- "The US can do what she does because we are the US and the sole superpower". It's a horrible circular argument, that we do things and say it's for good but condemn others for doing the exact same things themselves. We pay lip service to such things and "spreading freedom" and such, when it's all done with cold, calculated national interest concerns (and an argument can be made for corporate interests more so than national interests). Russia is doing what she is doing because it's in her interests. If it's ok for us, then why isn't it ok for them?

The US definitely stirred up the pot in the Ukraine and we were involved up to the hilt in their coup. That coup forced Russia's hand and we still refuse to acknowledge our own hand in the current so called "crisis". It's all theater.

PS wrote: Not that I am for the USA drawing red lines in other people's (Syria) business, but there is something to be said about the error of making threats if a line is crossed, and then when it is crossed, Obama balks.


Thank goodness Obama balked! Ignoring for a moment the idiocy of drawing red lines, what is worse- Drawing red lines and eating crow by not following up, or, drawing red lines and then instead of admitting that it was a bluff, opt for violence instead of losing face. That's a hell of a reason for war, isn't it? To save face?

Now, do you think Romney wouldn't draw red lines as well? Of course he would! And Romney might have been the type to fight a war just to save face, I don't know though. Politicians do manage to blunder themselves and their nations into disastrous wars. History is filled with such examples, the US included. If we keep on with your- "His side"/"my side" way of thinking, we will get a politician who will badly blunder into another such war.


PS wrote: And the same goes for terrorist organizations, they too are more aggressive and more bold. They see the USA as a paper tiger. I know it's better to not be seen as a paper tiger, at least on paper.


Ha! The terrorists organizations don't see the US as a paper tiger, no matter who the POTUS is, they see the US as the greatest recruiting tool they've ever had. What you would advocate to do, what you think Romney would do that makes him a better POTUS would only accomplish one thing, more recruitment for the terrorists.

There are few things the average Jihadist fighter fears more than US predator drones cruising the skies above them. But that doesn't deter them, does it? They know how strong the US is and just as Sun Tzu suggested, use your enemies strengths against him. These guys aren't stupid, even though we try to propagandize the enemy as such. There is method to their madness and we best start thinking about that before we turn to our main strength, our military. Sure, the jihadists lose some fighters when we bomb them, but our bombs also kill anyone else who may be nearby. Women, children, sons, daughters, and there you go. You kill one fighter and make sure that 10 more will be willing to fight because we just blew up their grandma or baby or other. There are other options, better options, ones that people like Obama and Romney can't consider because it's not politically viable.

PS wrote: Of course Romney would be making errors too, maybe even the same errors.


So with this in mind, then the line "Romney would have been a better POTUS than Obama" really starts to sound pretty bad, doesn't it?

PS wrote: And concerning the 'we don't have a strategy' statement Obama made to the world a couple weeks ago, that's like announcing over the loudspeaker on the first day of highschool that ya don't know how to fight.


No, it's not like that at all. And I bet you a dollar to a doughnut that there are plenty of kids (a majority) that don't know how to fight. It's not a big deal. As far as Obama is concerned, I don't think I'd be holding much value in what he says. Obama is a liar, would you agree with me on that? If so, then why would you assume he is telling the truth when he says something like that?
Haha!
Obama has a strategy, he knows what he wants to do, all he has to figure out is how to trick get the American public to go along with what he wants to do.

PS wrote: I don't think Romney is incompetent as I do Obama.



I guess it all matters on how you measure such a thing, don't ya think? Obama is a competent politician, he got himself elected didn't he? Romney, on the other hand, hasn't seemed to figure out that the US voter just isn't going to accept him as POTUS. Ever. That brings up some question in my mind about certain competencies.
Obama on the other hand has been wildly successful. You'll even agree with me about that before the end of our conversation I'd bet-


PS wrote: And based on my preference for less taxes, less spending, less government, I would have to go with Romney over Obama.


Of course you would! But Obama believes in more taxes, more spending, more government. And in that he's been quite successful, don't ya think? Haha! Obama is doing everything he wanted to do. I'm not convinced that Romney would eliminate government power, he'd just shift it to other focuses is all, same with spending and taxes.

Obama has been so successful in implementing his agenda that there is absolutely no way you can say he's incompetent or unsuccessful. It's just that you think that what he's doing is wrong. I agree with you on that, but man, has he not increased the power of his office? To levels that unheard of. Man, that's some feat isn't it? He and his administration can break law with impudence, he can lie with no consequences to himself or his cronies. He can tell outright falsehoods to the American people and no one bats an eye. Holy hell that's some major chutzpah! Obama's success boggles my mind. Romney could never have gotten away with the things Obama does/did.

So, regardless on one's point of view, Obama has succeeded very well. He may have succeeded in only hastening the US' demise but he did what he set out to do. To transform the US, and so he has. Foreign policy the US is as schizophrenic as ever, but domestically PC dominates and US values are changed forever. A remarkable feat if I do say so myself.


PS wrote: Sure, it might only be a small step towards the right direction, but to me, that is better than any step in the wrong direction. Assad the lesser of two evils? Sure. And Obama gave money and guns illegally to the greater of two evils, and now ISIS is driving around in American vehicles sporting American weapons beheading/banishing Christians and anyone else who will not immediately convert to Islam. Romney the lesser of two evils? Sure.


Nope. Evil is evil, man. First off, Assad serves a purpose, just as ISIS does. Romney would certainly keep with the arming of rebels to destabilize specific nations. It's part of a strategy founded in the mid 90's and we've been pursuing it ever since. Not necessarily for the benefit of the US, mind you. But that's another subject to long to go into right now.

PS, you, like many other US voters, are stuck in the circle of when voting are not voting for someone, but rather voting against someone else. The whole US political process is based on this. As long as you keep voting for "the lesser of two evils" we will still keep on stepping-
PS wrote:in the wrong direction.




PS wrote:All I'm sayin is, given the choice, I don't choose the dipshit. I admit we did not have a great choice, and have been fully aware the entire time we as a people did not earn a fair choice. That is why I'm ALL about the primaries and caucuses. People think they are just gonna be handed a real choice, and that's why Republicans and Democrats get away with it all the time. People sit out voting altogether, they get away with it all the more. We have to earn a real choice. Honestly, if even 5% more Americans got involved in the primary process, it would have a tremendous impact on our choice for president.


The POTUS doesn't operate in a vacuum. Honestly, we are past being able to change anything through the political process. There are already too many benefiting on the current process to be able to do that. Don't you understand that, PS?

We keep on with the- "If we could only get the right person in office". That's a fantasy. Wishful thinking at best.

What's a Gary Johnson going to be able to do? What is a Ron Paul going to be able to do? Or a Rand Paul? Nothing, because even if they truly were the "right person to have in office", even they can't deny the power of the State. No one can change the coercive nature of government. It wouldn't be government without that threat of violence, would it?

It's not a politician that is ever going to change anything, it has to be removing the power of government in the first place. So that no matter who gets into office they just don't have the authority or power to go around mucking up things to begin with. The corporate power brokers behind the scenes won't bother manipulating the government when the government doesn't have the power give those corporations greater influence. And a whole host of other things.

But there is a downside to that as well. People are always trying to compel others, that just won't ever end anytime soon, will it? When people fail to convince others to do things voluntarily then they will turn to coercive means, won't they? It's human nature.


I think it may be better for us in the long run to go ahead and go through the trauma we are heading. If we get through it, and we will get through it most likely, then we will have relearned that which we have forgotten. Or we'll live in a totalitarian hell, but that won't last for very long either. It never does, something those bastards ISIS have yet to learn, but learn they will. The hard way, which is all right by me, and we'll learn the exact same way.

So, in conclusion, PS, I say keep fighting the good fight but make sure you have a backup plan for yourself and your family. Don't rely on our politicians or the US voter to come to his/her senses. Because that, my friend, isn't going to happen.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:32 pm

RE: the 'they're aggressive cuz Obama seems weak' argument,
that doesn't sound convincing because there's more factors at play than what a country's leader perceives of another country.

1. Obama isn't the only person at the wheel of US military power. Think of the NSC, his Cabinet, and the Joint Chiefs. Does Putin think they're all weak?
2. What about the entire US military and its economy? Does that somehow seem weak?

I think it's more about basic incentives. The US is spread out with its global war on terror and its mess in the entire Middle East, so it'll be easier for others to take advantage of this. Post-recession, the US has been spending more resources (material and intellectual) in dealing with internal, economic concerns, so this leaves less resources for freaking out over foreign affairs.

Also, think of the place: Ukraine borders Russia's backyard, so the price of interfering will be much lower. The sanctions are not discouraging--especially since the decision-makers hardly feel the effects, and the feedback mechanism between voters and Putin is very weak, so it's not like sanctions will cause major bottom-up problems.

There's plenty of other examples as to why the 'President looks weak' argument fails to explain much.
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Re: Romney was Better than Obama

Postby owenshooter on Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:56 am

Romney... he is my bitch...-eJn

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