Gaza-Israel Ceasefire: Prison Conditions on Gaza Lifted

[patches70]

Germany changed its flag from the Swastika because peace was more important than symbology. Israel should also not fly a Nazi-inspired flag; it is considered an offensive symbol by Orthodox Jewry (it is banned in Sephardic temples) and Arabs. However, if Israel wants to eschew personal responsibility and choose to keep flying it, that's fine. It just shouldn't whine like a welfare mom out of food stamps if offensive military operations continue due to its choices.

Does this go for Turkey, Pakistan, Algeria, England, Denmark and Switzerland as well? They each have religious symbols on their flags as well.
Just sayin' is all.
Changing the flag shouldn't be any position between states attempting to make peace.

If Israel wants to abandon the pretense that it's a secular state and admit it's a fundamentalist nutjob theocracy, though, that's fine.

Like the other theocracies around the world, eh?

My tax dollars don't go to fund the Boy Scouts. Taxes are forcibly collected from Israeli Arab citizens to pay for luxury vacations for American and Canadian Jews during which they are taught a revisionist and racist version of history. If private parties want to pay to teach pseudo-science, eugenics, etc., that's fine. Arabs shouldn't be forced to pay their money to fund an education program that teaches they are dogs.

Yeah, you're right! After all, not a single dime of the taxes you are forced to pay go to anything you disagree with, right?
Hey, I'm all for not using tax payer money to fund stupid stuff, but I don't think I or any other nation has the right to tell Israel what they can spend their own tax dollars on. Nor base a peace between separate peoples upon such a trivial thing.
On a side note, I'm all for eliminating foreign aid, to everyone. Including Israel and the Palestinians (and everyone else, sink or swim bitchez!).

They don't need to agree. Israel is treading water in the deep end of the pool. If they don't want to agree to reasonable requests, that's their right. If I were the Israelis I would choose the path of least pain and voluntarily agree to concessions sooner rather than having them imposed through force of arms later. But I don't care either way. What will come, will come.

Oh, it could well come to that one day. But rest assured, if that day comes, I can pretty much be sure the Palestinian question will be resolved. As will the Iranian, Iraqi, Egyptian, Syrian, and every other problem in the region will be solved. It'll be an irradiated death zone under which a good chunk of the world's oil will be trapped under for thousands of years.....

Good talkin' with ya, Saxi. I enjoy these conversations.

Peace (something not likely in the region in question but between people like us is easy even though we may well disagree on things).

[2dimes]

I saw a commercial on TV for a vacation package to Belize.

Do you have a non wikipidia source for this?

Spring break is comming up. What kind of pricing is there for march?

[patches70]

I saw a commercial on TV for a vacation package to Belize.

Do you have a non wikipidia source for this?

Spring break is comming up. What kind of pricing is there for march?

Belize is nice, the second largest coral reef in the world. You'd have a ball diving there and I'm sure the women are nice since you're comming. I guess you could go to Belize's official tourism site, I'm sure you can find deals.

[saxitoxin]

Germany changed its flag from the Swastika because peace was more important than symbology. Israel should also not fly a Nazi-inspired flag; it is considered an offensive symbol by Orthodox Jewry (it is banned in Sephardic temples) and Arabs. However, if Israel wants to eschew personal responsibility and choose to keep flying it, that's fine. It just shouldn't whine like a welfare mom out of food stamps if offensive military operations continue due to its choices.

Does this go for Turkey, Pakistan, Algeria, England, Denmark and Switzerland as well? They each have religious symbols on their flags as well.
Just sayin' is all.
Changing the flag shouldn't be any position between states attempting to make peace.

A better comparison would be the use of the Red Hand on the flag of British-Occupied Ulster. This flag should absolutely be abolished in favor of a neutral flag. Regardless, England's intransigence is not preventing Israel from choosing to adopt a secular flag.

My tax dollars don't go to fund the Boy Scouts. Taxes are forcibly collected from Israeli Arab citizens to pay for luxury vacations for American and Canadian Jews during which they are taught a revisionist and racist version of history. If private parties want to pay to teach pseudo-science, eugenics, etc., that's fine. Arabs shouldn't be forced to pay their money to fund an education program that teaches they are dogs.

Yeah, you're right! After all, not a single dime of the taxes you are forced to pay go to anything you disagree with, right?

My tax money going to fund a freeway interchange I don't like is on a different moral plane than my tax money going to fund the Ku Klux Klan.

If the KKK or Birthright want to operate with private donations, more power to them. If the KKK or Birthright want to collect tax dollars from African-Americans or Israeli-Arabs or True Torah Jews, there is a right of resistance.

[patches70]

My tax money going to fund a freeway interchange I don't like is on a different moral plane than my tax money going to fund the Ku Klux Klan.

If the KKK or Birthright want to operate with private donations, more power to them. If the KKK or Birthright want to collect tax dollars from African-Americans or Israeli-Arabs, there is a right of resistance.

How about your tax dollars going to fund, oh say, a war of aggression on Libya?

Is that on a closer moral plane now?

England's intransigence is not preventing Israel from choosing to adopt a secular flag.

Israel's intransigence at not adopting a new flag should not prevent the negotiations for forming a separate Palestinian State.

[saxitoxin]

My tax money going to fund a freeway interchange I don't like is on a different moral plane than my tax money going to fund the Ku Klux Klan.

If the KKK or Birthright want to operate with private donations, more power to them. If the KKK or Birthright want to collect tax dollars from African-Americans or Israeli-Arabs, there is a right of resistance.

How about your tax dollars going to fund, oh say, a war of aggression on Libya?

Is that on a closer moral plane now?

Absolutely, but it's an irrelevant point. Americans don't have a capacity for resistance. Despite the well-meaning fantasies of the NRA, there are no significant examples in the last 150 years of Americans resisting an authoritarian act. However, Palestinians - daily - use privately-owned firearms to fight a government violating private property rights.

Also, pulling in every other example from every other corner of the world as a way to excuse Israel is really nothing more than a distraction. The issue is Occupied-Palestine, not the history of the coat of arms of eastern Greenland. If that has created a situation that needs resolution, then it can be resolved separately and distinctly from the Israeli issue. However, right now, there are no running gun battles in the streets of Copenhagen.

[patches70]

Also, pulling in every other example from every other corner of the world as a way to excuse Israel is really nothing more than a distraction.

Oh, I'm not excusing Israel, I'm just trying to figure out why you hold them to a different standard than the rest of the world is all.

[2dimes]

I saw a commercial on TV for a vacation package to Belize.

Do you have a non wikipidia source for this?

Spring break is comming up. What kind of pricing is there for march?

Belize is nice, the second largest coral reef in the world. You'd have a ball diving there and I'm sure the women are nice since you're comming. I guess you could go to Belize's official tourism site, I'm sure you can find deals.

That was spring break not me. I'll be stuck with my wife so that probably won't happen on spring break even. Though on occasion I'll have a nocturnal emmision.

[Pirlo]

That would be one hell of a problem. Hell, nations are quicker to take Gitmo prisoners than they will to let Palestinians into their nation.

Funny how you are talking about and dehumanizing us as if we are pests. thanks!

[patches70]

That would be one hell of a problem. Hell, nations are quicker to take Gitmo prisoners than they will to let Palestinians into their nation.

Funny how you are talking about and dehumanizing us as if we are pests. thanks!

It's my fault is it then?

Trust me, I don't need to dehumanize the Palestinians, they are good at doing it themselves-

show: Primitive brutality

Oh, wait, that is an Israeli spy (allegedly), it's ok then right?

You know, the Palestinians were supposed to get their own state. The British mandate it was called. Territory designated to the Palestinians was taken by the Jordanians and the Egyptians and the Palestinians forcibly exiled. It's not just the Israelis who have crapped on the Palestinians, the rest of the region had their fair share of doling out abuse.

Thus, the origin of my comment it you'd bother to take the time to understand.


It was the League of Nations and the British Empire that first tried to find a solution. The people living there, only some of them I might add, rejected the agreement. It is worth noting that the people rejecting the British Mandate didn't view themselves as "Palestinian" as there was no real Palestinian identity at the time.

It is odd that today, the Palestinians turn to the UN who are the ones who ultimately came up with the solution that there would be one Jewish State, one Arab State and the city of Jerusalem independent. The Jews accepted the plan and adhered to it, setting up an officially recognized representative, the Arabs on the other hand rejected the plan and never set up an officially recognized representative.
The Jews declared their state, the Arabs did not and war ensued. After the war Jordan annexed the West Bank, Egypt annexed the Gaza (areas intended for the Palestinians) and the Palestinians were left with nothing, and so began the Lost Years and the forming of the Palestinian identity.

What's odd is that the Palestinians rely on the UN to force Israel into doing whatever it is that the Palestinians want (that is that every Jew be kicked out basically), but it was the UN who came up with the plan in the first place, which was rejected by those who would later identify themselves as Palestinian.

It's like children squabbling over a toy, except these children are killing each other.
Me dehumanizing the Palestinians? Not at all, if they want to fight it out to the death with the Israelis, more power to em. I just don't see why the US should be involved with it. It's a matter for the two parties to work out. Both sides are out of their minds, but hey, to each their own.

There have been numerous chances that the Palestinians could have had their own state. Always rejected. So tell me, why exactly should I side with the Palestinians over the Israelis? I don't see much difference between the two in the way they treat each other. Might as well flip a coin I suppose, but I'm American.

I believe in Liberty, freedom. Israel is rated as being free, we have an NGO here, called Freedom House. It runs on government grants mainly, but it's job is to determine and rank nations on how free they are. They base their ratings on political and civil rights in the various nations.
For instance, Canada has a perfect score, 1 in Political rights and 1 in Civil rights, thus it is considered "free". Israel is also considered "free".
But do you know who wasn't considered "free"? The former Palestinian Authority for one. In fact, Israel is the only nation considered "free" in the entire region.

Now, we can blame the Palestinian woes on Israel, and surely they deserve some of the credit for how bad things are, so don't get me wrong on that. But one must also look at who it is that the Palestinian people allow to rule them. Freaking Hamas. Sorry Pirlo, I ain't gonna side with Hamas. In fact, I'm just not going to pick sides for the most part. But you sure as hell aren't ever going to find me cheering for Hamas.

You know who funds Hamas? The Saudis. Talk about totalitarian government! No, the Palestinians elected Hamas, they've gotten the government they deserve I suppose, just like we have the government we deserve. Government's who's interests are not in line with the best interests of their people in most regards. The Palestinians are no exception. And Palestinians have elected people who will not negotiate with Israel no matter how much the Palestinian people suffer.

No, I don't dehumanize the Palestinians, they do that job all on their own.
I do sincerely hope there is some sort of peaceful resolution to the whole situation, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it. It's not really fair that people have such miserable lives just because Fate determined where they were born. But, life ain't fair, to be sure. What people must do is try to take the wisest course of action and the Palestinians haven't been very wise (IMO).

[nietzsche]

[bedub1]

<Removed>

[spurgistan]

That would be one hell of a problem. Hell, nations are quicker to take Gitmo prisoners than they will to let Palestinians into their nation.

Funny how you are talking about and dehumanizing us as if we are pests. thanks!

It's my fault is it then?

Trust me, I don't need to dehumanize the Palestinians, they are good at doing it themselves-

show: Primitive brutality

What's that image from, Texas in 1998?

[Phatscotty]

That would be one hell of a problem. Hell, nations are quicker to take Gitmo prisoners than they will to let Palestinians into their nation.

Funny how you are talking about and dehumanizing us as if we are pests. thanks!

It's my fault is it then?

Trust me, I don't need to dehumanize the Palestinians, they are good at doing it themselves-

show: Primitive brutality

What's that image from, Texas in 1998?

The worst non-sequitor I have ever seen.

You heard him Patches. Just because some other guy got dragged through the streets 15 years ago, your ability to call dragging human carcasses through the streets uncivilized, as it happens in real time, is severely compromised. Oh yeah, and the fact that this is all too common in the Middle East and extremely rare in the West has no bearing either.


Spurgistan, what's that image from? The murder of Hector?

[Phatscotty]

Hey Saxi, how long until Hezbollah jumps in?

[Pirlo]

That would be one hell of a problem. Hell, nations are quicker to take Gitmo prisoners than they will to let Palestinians into their nation.

Funny how you are talking about and dehumanizing us as if we are pests. thanks!

It's my fault is it then?

Trust me, I don't need to dehumanize the Palestinians, they are good at doing it themselves-

show: Primitive brutality

Oh, wait, that is an Israeli spy (allegedly), it's ok then right?

You know, the Palestinians were supposed to get their own state. The British mandate it was called. Territory designated to the Palestinians was taken by the Jordanians and the Egyptians and the Palestinians forcibly exiled. It's not just the Israelis who have crapped on the Palestinians, the rest of the region had their fair share of doling out abuse.

Thus, the origin of my comment it you'd bother to take the time to understand.


It was the League of Nations and the British Empire that first tried to find a solution. The people living there, only some of them I might add, rejected the agreement. It is worth noting that the people rejecting the British Mandate didn't view themselves as "Palestinian" as there was no real Palestinian identity at the time.

It is odd that today, the Palestinians turn to the UN who are the ones who ultimately came up with the solution that there would be one Jewish State, one Arab State and the city of Jerusalem independent. The Jews accepted the plan and adhered to it, setting up an officially recognized representative, the Arabs on the other hand rejected the plan and never set up an officially recognized representative.
The Jews declared their state, the Arabs did not and war ensued. After the war Jordan annexed the West Bank, Egypt annexed the Gaza (areas intended for the Palestinians) and the Palestinians were left with nothing, and so began the Lost Years and the forming of the Palestinian identity.

What's odd is that the Palestinians rely on the UN to force Israel into doing whatever it is that the Palestinians want (that is that every Jew be kicked out basically), but it was the UN who came up with the plan in the first place, which was rejected by those who would later identify themselves as Palestinian.

It's like children squabbling over a toy, except these children are killing each other.
Me dehumanizing the Palestinians? Not at all, if they want to fight it out to the death with the Israelis, more power to em. I just don't see why the US should be involved with it. It's a matter for the two parties to work out. Both sides are out of their minds, but hey, to each their own.

There have been numerous chances that the Palestinians could have had their own state. Always rejected. So tell me, why exactly should I side with the Palestinians over the Israelis? I don't see much difference between the two in the way they treat each other. Might as well flip a coin I suppose, but I'm American.

I believe in Liberty, freedom. Israel is rated as being free, we have an NGO here, called Freedom House. It runs on government grants mainly, but it's job is to determine and rank nations on how free they are. They base their ratings on political and civil rights in the various nations.
For instance, Canada has a perfect score, 1 in Political rights and 1 in Civil rights, thus it is considered "free". Israel is also considered "free".
But do you know who wasn't considered "free"? The former Palestinian Authority for one. In fact, Israel is the only nation considered "free" in the entire region.

Now, we can blame the Palestinian woes on Israel, and surely they deserve some of the credit for how bad things are, so don't get me wrong on that. But one must also look at who it is that the Palestinian people allow to rule them. Freaking Hamas. Sorry Pirlo, I ain't gonna side with Hamas. In fact, I'm just not going to pick sides for the most part. But you sure as hell aren't ever going to find me cheering for Hamas.

You know who funds Hamas? The Saudis. Talk about totalitarian government! No, the Palestinians elected Hamas, they've gotten the government they deserve I suppose, just like we have the government we deserve. Government's who's interests are not in line with the best interests of their people in most regards. The Palestinians are no exception. And Palestinians have elected people who will not negotiate with Israel no matter how much the Palestinian people suffer.

No, I don't dehumanize the Palestinians, they do that job all on their own.
I do sincerely hope there is some sort of peaceful resolution to the whole situation, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it. It's not really fair that people have such miserable lives just because Fate determined where they were born. But, life ain't fair, to be sure. What people must do is try to take the wisest course of action and the Palestinians haven't been very wise (IMO).

tl;dr - but sounds like an alien giving me a history lesson about my own region. as for the pic, remember there are assholes in every single nation; with no exception. No need to get into an endless argument about this because it would silly to waste our time digging for shit like that about each side. just try to look at things from a different perspective for a minute. In Gaza, there has been a blockade and very limited access to vital things like food and fuel; not that there is no food, but it's too expensive for a blocked territory to purchase whatever you want for your children. Imagine yourself forced to live in such shitty circumstances made by Israel then you suddenly find out someone selling info to your enemy who causes all your life miseries. It's easy for you to sit in your comfortable home and criticize the actions of those who were born on the battle field.

the stuff in red may not be reasonable for a lot of us because they also have a different point of view. If the governor had illegitimately taken over your own house/property for 5 years, then came with a "solution" for you as former owner and me as a homeless guy stating that you only take 30% and I, from nothing, given the right to get 70% of what used to be your own property; it would definitely be so fine for me to get 70% from nothing, and you know how would it feel for ya to get 30% from what was yours! this is one of the most popular arguments going here. I stopped giving a f*ck anyway, just saying what's in some people's minds. I'd like to see your reaction if I stole 10 bucks from your own wallet.

"Jews" (as you put it) are mainly viewed there in mid-east as comers/invaders from intolerant Europe who wanted to get rid of them. It would have been a lot better if sweet Europe found em an empty land instead of displacing Palestinians from their own properties. Now Roma People (or Gypsies) are still in-tolerated in Europe; so would it be fine if Europe decided to displace ya from your own property to give them your state?

[patches70]

Imagine yourself forced to live in such shitty circumstances made by Israel

Those circumstances weren't made by Israel alone, but keep focusing on a boogieman.

then you suddenly find out someone selling info to your enemy who causes all your life miseries.

It's nice having a single evil entity to focus all the hatred of a people on. It's a common tactic used to enslave people. You should really look to the Saudis as a great example of how to keep a people in the dark and hating someone else so they don't see how badly you are treating those very people.

It's easy for you to sit in your comfortable home and criticize the actions of those who were born on the battle field.

It's Thanksgiving, I give particular thanks that I don't have to live under such circumstances. For now at least, and for that I am thankful.

the stuff in red may not be reasonable for a lot of us because they also have a different point of view.

Yes, two peoples who refuse to consider each others point of view are destined to fight till the end of time. As you imply, there are at least two points of view, are there not?
So which point of view is the correct one?
Is it possible that they are both correct?
Is so, where does that leave one?

I'd like to see your reaction if I stole 10 bucks from your own wallet.

I'd figure you needed it more than I did if you were to feel you were forced to go to such lengths. But I tell ya what, I won't let you get near my wallet ever again! I might even have to kick the snot out of you if you try again.

"Jews" (as you put it) are mainly viewed there in mid-east as comers/invaders

What? You mean they are viewed as something less than human, just merely alien invaders?

I think I'm starting to see the problem here....

Now Roma People (or Gypsies) are still in-tolerated in Europe;

I don't know, are they? I can't say as I have any intolerant feelings toward them, but I can't speak for anyone other than myself.

so would it be fine if Europe decided to displace ya from your own property to give them your state?

Sounds like a plan someone might come up with, someone like, Oh...say....The United Nations?

[GreecePwns]

patches, you make the mistake of equating all types of violence.

The Israelis, having illegally seized the land and continually oppressing the Palestinians are waging a war of aggression for the past half century. The Palestinians, by working to reverse the war of aggression and associated injustices, are fighting a defensive war.

The difference is clear and the international law implications are very important. International law, if we're going to go by what happened in Nuremberg, calls for the Israeli leadership to rot in jail as participants in a war of aggression. International law also absolves the Palestinians of their defensive actions, just as it would the Jews who fought Nazi Germany in Warsaw or it would the Native Americans fighting back .

That in fact is the correct view. The Israelis having a religion that tells them otherwise, them having more guns and American funding, and their attempt to put the two on equal moral standing do not absolve them of these consequences.

If you're going to argue that the Palestinians should accept the repeated imprisonment and beatings as they have for half a century under Fatah rule, then you're going to also detail how this will help them achieve their goals.

[patches70]

If you're going to argue that the Palestinians should accept the repeated imprisonment and beatings as they have for half a century under Fatah rule, then you're going to also detail how this will help them achieve their goals.

Done! In the other thread though.

Fifty years is not enough time, it takes longer, unless the Palestinians have the military might to force the issue, which they don't.

All the military might of all the nations in the region are not enough to push the issue. If the Palestinians are to succeed in getting their own state, they'll have to go another route than to do it through military conquest.

Israel was strong enough to take what they have, the Palestinians are not. But that's not the only way to win. Not by a long shot.

[spurgistan]

That would be one hell of a problem. Hell, nations are quicker to take Gitmo prisoners than they will to let Palestinians into their nation.

Funny how you are talking about and dehumanizing us as if we are pests. thanks!

It's my fault is it then?

Trust me, I don't need to dehumanize the Palestinians, they are good at doing it themselves-

show: Primitive brutality

What's that image from, Texas in 1998?

The worst non-sequitor I have ever seen.

You heard him Patches. Just because some other guy got dragged through the streets 15 years ago, your ability to call dragging human carcasses through the streets uncivilized, as it happens in real time, is severely compromised. Oh yeah, and the fact that this is all too common in the Middle East and extremely rare in the West has no bearing either.


Spurgistan, what's that image from? The murder of Hector?

You're right, we should probably occupy Texas and drop bombs on them til they can civilize themselves. If they could let some idiots drag a guy behind a truck, how can we trust them to run a state?

[Pirlo]

I'd like to see your reaction if I stole 10 bucks from your own wallet.

I'd figure you needed it more than I did if you were to feel you were forced to go to such lengths. But I tell ya what, I won't let you get near my wallet ever again! I might even have to kick the snot out of you if you try again.

Nice of you.. Gotta find few thousands of people like this to steal 10s from them to hopefully raise a decent fund for Sandy victims

"Jews" (as you put it) are mainly viewed there in mid-east as comers/invaders

What? You mean they are viewed as something less than human, just merely alien invaders?

I think I'm starting to see the problem here....

Did I say that? I blame your understanding skill! I said from Europe, which means foreigners, not from another planet. Anyway, look how a lot of people are whining about illegal immigrants in your country although those immigrants didn't even try to take over the country!

Just to clarify, this is not my own opinion or view. Just sharing how people could think and see things!

[bedub1]

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