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The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:00 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:My analysis of the phatscotty form of conservatism (the triangle you listed in another post). Yes it is quite assertive so feel free to correct my mistakes.


Those are American values; the American trinity

Yeh but I assume that those of a conservative bent are far more dedicated to those values than, say, your average liberal?


I don't think so. E pluribus unum, "out of many, one" apllies to all I would say. Liberty...self explanatory. In God we trust, I don't hear any liberals complaining too loudly about spending money with the word God on it. If they are, they aren't very loud.

I could meet you half way, in that Socialists are probably against American values, and there are more socialists on the left than there are on the right, but Socialism is fundamentally anti-American at it's core, so that's okay.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Lootifer on Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:11 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:My analysis of the phatscotty form of conservatism (the triangle you listed in another post). Yes it is quite assertive so feel free to correct my mistakes.


Those are American values; the American trinity

Yeh but I assume that those of a conservative bent are far more dedicated to those values than, say, your average liberal?


I don't think so. E pluribus unum, "out of many, one" apllies to all I would say. Liberty...self explanatory. In God we trust, I don't hear any liberals complaining too loudly about spending money with the word God on it. If they are, they aren't very loud.

I could meet you half way, in that Socialists are probably against American values, and there are more socialists on the left than there are on the right, but Socialism is fundamentally anti-American at it's core, so that's okay.

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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Nola_Lifer on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:22 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:My analysis of the phatscotty form of conservatism (the triangle you listed in another post). Yes it is quite assertive so feel free to correct my mistakes.


Those are American values; the American trinity

Yeh but I assume that those of a conservative bent are far more dedicated to those values than, say, your average liberal?


I could meet you half way, in that Socialists are probably against American values, and there are more socialists on the left than there are on the right, but Socialism is fundamentally anti-American at it's core, so that's okay.


You got proof. Biggest bs I've heard in a while.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:00 pm

Nola_Lifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:My analysis of the phatscotty form of conservatism (the triangle you listed in another post). Yes it is quite assertive so feel free to correct my mistakes.


Those are American values; the American trinity

Yeh but I assume that those of a conservative bent are far more dedicated to those values than, say, your average liberal?


I could meet you half way, in that Socialists are probably against American values, and there are more socialists on the left than there are on the right, but Socialism is fundamentally anti-American at it's core, so that's okay.


You got proof. Biggest bs I've heard in a while.


Sure. What specifically do you require a reality check in? What part is BS?
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Lootifer on Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:10 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I don't think so. E pluribus unum, "out of many, one" apllies to all I would say. Liberty...self explanatory. In God we trust, I don't hear any liberals complaining too loudly about spending money with the word God on it. If they are, they aren't very loud.

I could meet you half way, in that Socialists are probably against American values, and there are more socialists on the left than there are on the right, but Socialism is fundamentally anti-American at it's core, so that's okay.

US AND THEM, US AND THEM, US AND THEM!
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:23 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I don't think so. E pluribus unum, "out of many, one" apllies to all I would say. Liberty...self explanatory. In God we trust, I don't hear any liberals complaining too loudly about spending money with the word God on it. If they are, they aren't very loud.

I could meet you half way, in that Socialists are probably against American values, and there are more socialists on the left than there are on the right, but Socialism is fundamentally anti-American at it's core, so that's okay.

US AND THEM, US AND THEM, US AND THEM!


so....then.....everyone is the same? no conflicting interests? no competition? nothing worth fighting for? No right or wrong? No good or bad? No Judaism or Islam? No Israel or Palestine?

:-s
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Lootifer on Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:44 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I don't think so. E pluribus unum, "out of many, one" apllies to all I would say. Liberty...self explanatory. In God we trust, I don't hear any liberals complaining too loudly about spending money with the word God on it. If they are, they aren't very loud.

I could meet you half way, in that Socialists are probably against American values, and there are more socialists on the left than there are on the right, but Socialism is fundamentally anti-American at it's core, so that's okay.

US AND THEM, US AND THEM, US AND THEM!


so....then.....everyone is the same? no conflicting interests? no competition? nothing worth fighting for? No right or wrong? No good or bad? No Judaism or Islam? No Israel or Palestine?

:-s

I like how you interpret me taking the micky out of you being extremely partisian to me not believing in right or wrong.

Thats an interesting leap, to be sure.

Aside: This post was brought to you by the Irish Forum Posters Union.

Further aside: How old are you PS? Range is fine (20-25, 25-30, 30-35 etc); I am 30 if that helps.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:54 pm

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I don't think so. E pluribus unum, "out of many, one" apllies to all I would say. Liberty...self explanatory. In God we trust, I don't hear any liberals complaining too loudly about spending money with the word God on it. If they are, they aren't very loud.

I could meet you half way, in that Socialists are probably against American values, and there are more socialists on the left than there are on the right, but Socialism is fundamentally anti-American at it's core, so that's okay.

US AND THEM, US AND THEM, US AND THEM!


so....then.....everyone is the same? no conflicting interests? no competition? nothing worth fighting for? No right or wrong? No good or bad? No Judaism or Islam? No Israel or Palestine?

:-s

I like how you interpret me taking the micky out of you being extremely partisian to me not believing in right or wrong.

Thats an interesting leap, to be sure.

Aside: This post was brought to you by the Irish Forum Posters Union.

Further aside: How old are you PS? Range is fine (20-25, 25-30, 30-35 etc); I am 30 if that helps.


I am under 35 and over 30. I was just pointing out a lot of examples of us vs. them, which kinda took the sauce off your "US AND THEM" rant....

Do you disagree that Socialism is anti-America? and why am I asking a Kiwi?
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby MegaProphet on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:38 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:I don't think so. E pluribus unum, "out of many, one" apllies to all I would say. Liberty...self explanatory. In God we trust, I don't hear any liberals complaining too loudly about spending money with the word God on it. If they are, they aren't very loud.

I could meet you half way, in that Socialists are probably against American values, and there are more socialists on the left than there are on the right, but Socialism is fundamentally anti-American at it's core, so that's okay.

US AND THEM, US AND THEM, US AND THEM!


so....then.....everyone is the same? no conflicting interests? no competition? nothing worth fighting for? No right or wrong? No good or bad? No Judaism or Islam? No Israel or Palestine?

:-s

I like how you interpret me taking the micky out of you being extremely partisian to me not believing in right or wrong.

Thats an interesting leap, to be sure.

Aside: This post was brought to you by the Irish Forum Posters Union.

Further aside: How old are you PS? Range is fine (20-25, 25-30, 30-35 etc); I am 30 if that helps.


I am under 35 and over 30. I was just pointing out a lot of examples of us vs. them, which kinda took the sauce off your "US AND THEM" rant....

Do you disagree that Socialism is anti-America? and why am I asking a Kiwi?

I don't think that Socialism is inherently anti-America, depending on ones view of what it means to be anti-America
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:50 pm

why is it you don't think that
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby MegaProphet on Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:08 pm

Phatscotty wrote:why is it you don't think that

I think that the most important values of the US(I assume you are talking about the US and not all of the countries of the American continents) are democracy, freedom, and equality and I don't see socialism as being in direct conflict with those values.
Of course if one believes capitalism to be a core value of the US then I can see where they would believe socialism to be anti-America.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Lootifer on Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:44 pm

Phatscotty wrote:I am under 35 and over 30. I was just pointing out a lot of examples of us vs. them, which kinda took the sauce off your "US AND THEM" rant....

Do you disagree that Socialism is anti-America? and why am I asking a Kiwi?

You've got me there (the Kiwi thing); I dont pretend to know exactly what "America" as stated by Phatscotty is. However I feel like I have a fairly good idea of what the conservative-right posters on this forum hold dear to their heart (even if I disagree, i can still understand your beliefs).

Back on topic your question is a tough one. Mainly because I, rightly or wrongly, dont see "America" as something that is explicitly definable; America is full of people who believe in the American values (Liberty etc), but its also full of a million different kinds of people all with different values, different priorities and different ideas of what should be done [politically]. Therefore how can you define what is anti-something when that something covers everything in the political spectrum (while mostly centred on the authortarian right - political compass axes).

So you need to define what you mean by "America" in anti-America. In this context I have defined that America to mean the conservative rights' set of American values (liberty, in god we trust etc); you guys tend to be pretty vocal about these values so while I could be wrong, I reckon I have at least a working knowledge of what these are. So then you ask Is socialism anti- a conservative right point of view? Well even a angry teenager will be able to answer that one (i.e. Yes!).

But that wasnt really my point. My point is what I mention above: America isn't something that is explicitly definable; you can say that the conservative-right point of view is the real "American" set of values; but unfortunately you live in a intellectually free democracy, and the USA's set of values is, therefore, undefinable (unless I've got it wrong and everyone in USA actually agrees with everyone else, but Woody, PD, and other liberal and/or left leaning posters say otherwise); and rightly so. Sure the majority believes in Liberty, God and all that other good stuff (serious here, it is good stuff), but that doesnt make anyone less American if they don't. And if it does you don't live in an intellectually free democracy.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:13 am

we also believe in keeping the fruits of our own labor, and fought a bloody civil war over it.

Socialism is at odds with this principle of ours.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby MegaProphet on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:24 am

Phatscotty wrote:we also believe in keeping the fruits of our own labor, and fought a bloody civil war over it.

Socialism is at odds with this principle of ours.

Can you explain how the civil war was fought over the belief in keeping the fruits of our own labor?
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:45 am

MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:we also believe in keeping the fruits of our own labor, and fought a bloody civil war over it.

Socialism is at odds with this principle of ours.

Can you explain how the civil war was fought over the belief in keeping the fruits of our own labor?


people were not getting paid for their work, or way too little. Not just slaves, but Irish people and gingers too.

"And, inasmuch [as] most good things are produced by labour, it follows that [all] such things of right belong to those whose labour has produced them. But it has so happened in all ages of the world, that some have laboured, and others have, without labour, enjoyed a large proportion of the fruits. This is wrong, and should not continue. To [secure] to each labourer the whole product of his labour, or as nearly as possible, is a most worthy object of any good government."

-Lincoln

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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:12 am

MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:why is it you don't think that

I think that the most important values of the US(I assume you are talking about the US and not all of the countries of the American continents) are democracy, freedom, and equality and I don't see socialism as being in direct conflict with those values.
Of course if one believes capitalism to be a core value of the US then I can see where they would believe socialism to be anti-America.


where do the values of Democracy come from. Are we no longer a Republic?

Freedom: You had me at hello

Equality? I suspect you have an interesting definition of equality. But I will hope to meet you in that we are all born equal. Not that we end up equal.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Iliad on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:56 am

Phatscotty wrote:
MegaProphet wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:we also believe in keeping the fruits of our own labor, and fought a bloody civil war over it.

Socialism is at odds with this principle of ours.

Can you explain how the civil war was fought over the belief in keeping the fruits of our own labor?


people were not getting paid for their work, or way too little. Not just slaves, but Irish people and gingers too.

"And, inasmuch [as] most good things are produced by labour, it follows that [all] such things of right belong to those whose labour has produced them. But it has so happened in all ages of the world, that some have laboured, and others have, without labour, enjoyed a large proportion of the fruits. This is wrong, and should not continue. To [secure] to each labourer the whole product of his labour, or as nearly as possible, is a most worthy object of any good government."

-Lincoln

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Firstly you do realise he's saying a fairly socialist thing there right? That the lower class is being exploited and all that?

And that still doesn't come close to actually being a casus belli for the Civil War. Slavery was, your attempts to muddy the waters are very weak. As are your attempts to clarify what you mean by American values and what socialism is.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:00 am

I didn't say it was the sole reason. talk about muddying the waters! shame on you! 8-)

I would ask you to expound on your bit about how anytime some rightly points out exploitation, that automatically makes it socialist....
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Iliad on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:15 am

Phatscotty wrote:I didn't say it was the sole reason. talk about muddying the waters! shame on you! 8-)

I would ask you to expound on your bit about how anytime some rightly points out exploitation, that automatically makes it socialist....
You said the civil war was fought over keeping the fruits of your labour...
Phatscotty wrote:we also believe in keeping the fruits of our own labor, and fought a bloody civil war over it.

Socialism is at odds with this principle of ours.


It really really wasn't.If anything slavery is the furthest point of the individualised pursuit of wealth untempered by collective controls. The commodification of human free will itself. You were trying to reframe it to fit your point and quite shamefully trying to drop the topic now.

Also easy. If Obama said the gist of what Lincoln said above, Fox would be running with that for a week.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Lootifer on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:20 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
"And, inasmuch [as] most good things are produced by labour, it follows that [all] such things of right belong to those whose labour has produced them. But it has so happened in all ages of the world, that some have laboured, and others have, without labour, enjoyed a large proportion of the fruits. This is wrong, and should not continue. To [secure] to each labourer the whole product of his labour, or as nearly as possible, is a most worthy object of any good government."

-Lincoln

Incidentally the modern centre left (what you seem to call socialism) movement can quite happily say exactly the same thing with a stright face, and with honesty.
I go to the gym to justify my mockery of fat people.
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Re: The Men Who Built America (History Channel Series..lol)

Postby Lootifer on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:28 pm

Phatscotty wrote:we also believe in keeping the fruits of our own labor, and fought a bloody civil war over it.

Socialism is at odds with this principle of ours.

But "we" and "ours" doesnt include the entire american population.
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