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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:30 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:The apes are obviously still here with us so why not the intermediate species between us and the ape? Are we to believe that the intermediate species died out upon our arrival?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus

We've known about this one for a while. As to why this one died out and apes survived? Who knows, that's just an accident of history.

Why did not the ape as well?


Because we didn't evolve "from the apes," they are a separate species that evolved from a common ancestor of both apes and humans. Humans could have evolved just fine without apes dying, and in fact they did. A species being created does not require another one dying out, in the theory of evolution. It's like how you can have multiple leaves grow off the same tree branch; they're all unique, and one leaf growing off the branch doesn't mean you can't have another leaf from the same branch.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:05 pm

crispybits wrote:OK - hyenas

Image

It's a dog right?

Except it's not - it's a cat. Honestly, it's part of the feliformia sub-order, and is demonstrably related to other cat forms rather than dog forms.

There's your half cat half dog. And it's out there alive and well today.

Did you visit the links I gave? Did you actually read them? Did you see how they described how you had one order, the miacids, and from that you get evolution into the carnivora. Then from the carnivora you get bears and cats and dogs and raccoons and all sorts of other creatures?

How about the Amphicyonidae. It's extinct now, but it is half way between a bear and a dog. Google it.

Also, I don't quite understand something. You say that science says that intermediaries don't exist, and then you tell us to show you intermediaries or you won't believe science. There's a bit of a contradiction there don't you think?


There is no contradiction in my answer. Show me an intermediate species and I will believe. That simple. You post all those picture of different animals and then say to me, "voila, evolution, see!" And you can't do that. That's exactly what I stated in my Original Post...

Viceroy63 wrote:[3] The gaps are simple to understand when you realize that the Theory explains that life evolved "gradually" over millions of years. That word "gradually," is the key to understanding the gaps. If it takes millions of years for one species to evolve into another, then there should be millions of years worth of fossilized remains everywhere showing the gradual changes over all those millions of years. You just don't show a dinosaur and then a bird and say, "voila, evolution, see!"


Evolution is a gradual process taking millions of years. So then where is the intermediary creature for the animals whose photos you posted. You see you are showing complete creatures and stating that they are intermediate species but then where is their intermediary species. There should be much, much more of them just laying around. If evolution takes millions of years to happen, then there should be many more variables of creatures that exist today. And there just isn't.

Take for example the Cambrian Explosion? Did those creatures evolve into existence or did they just appear fully formed and created creatures out of nowhere. I Say out of nowhere because they certainly did not have intermediary species. I know, I was there OK. :roll:

No seriously the Cambrian Explosion was a proliferation of new life forms suddenly coming into existence. So where was Evolution then? And where is evolution now when there are no intermediary species as there should be in accordance with the Theory of Evolution? Evolution postulates slow and gradual changes in the species over millions of years so there should be millions of years worth of intermediary species with many gradual differences with us today. Or at least there should be many fossilized bones just waiting to be dug up. Where are they?

"the Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 600 million years, are the oldest ones in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as thought they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say, this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists.”
(The Blind Watchmaker, p. 229)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzdXVpSsdEo

betiko wrote:Why do you think all mamals have 4 members, 2 eyes, 1 nose, 2 ears, 1 tail, 1 mouth and reproduce thanks to an ovula fecundated by a male inside the female and share so much dna? what are the odds for that?


I love it when you talk dirty betiko. LOL.
:lol:

CrazyIrishman; you really need to read the original post to understand the irony in that phrase, "Unproven Hypothesis" But yes you are correct. A hypothesis and a theory are both the same in that they are both unproven. That is why it is called, now watch carefully everyone as I write this part; The THEORY of Evolution!
Last edited by Viceroy63 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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An Unproven Hypothesis; The Rise of Ignorance.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Crazyirishman on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:21 pm

Okay I haven't read this badboy, but I can assume how most of the responses went, and I'm not sure if somebody else has proven it. But isn't a hypothesis by definition... unproven? If it were proven consistently over an extended period of time then it would be a law.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Lootifer on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:32 pm

Ok Viceroy; I give up. Evolution is a big fat lie.

Now what is the truth?

(Please be specific with your explanation of the cambrian explosion, radio-dating information, similaraties of distinct species etc etc).
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby GreecePwns on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:36 pm

Ain't reading this thread.

Nope. You can't make me do it. Ya just can't.
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Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Baron Von PWN on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:50 pm

GreecePwns wrote:Ain't reading this thread.

Nope. You can't make me do it. Ya just can't.



Here is an executive summary


viceroy63 wrote: LALALALALALALALALALALALALA I"M NOT LISTENING LALALALALALALALALALALALALA


everyone else wrote: lol wut?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Lootifer on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:35 pm

The one good thing to come out of this is I just did a whole bunch of reading on the topic and now understand how complex and difficult the science really is; little wonder its so very difficult to pin down "laws" and "facts" rather than rough theories.

This gives me far more confidence in evolution from a circumstantial pov; the ducks line up quite nicely and continue to make perfect sense given the evidence we do have. Compared to the counter factual that states some god entity took the time to design life in a way that would looks very much like the opposing concept; that is god is a troll (setting up a system such that you hide your true motive behind a believable scenario - in this case removing the ability to prove god exists - is essentially the definition of trolling).

Occam's Razor is enough for me in this situation, no matter how much Viccy boy babbles about lack of proof.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:29 pm

The Cambrian explosion makes sense in that most of the signalling molecules in use today evolved then. Since they allowed modular evolution, new species could be tried very quickly.

Viceroy, for us to show you an "intermediate species" you would need to define the term. What are the qualities that an intermediate species has?
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:33 pm

Here is a well-written summary, while I wait for viceroy to give me definitions.

A transitional fossil is one that looks like it's from an organism intermediate between two lineages, meaning it has some characteristics of lineage A, some characteristics of lineage B, and probably some characteristics part way between the two. Transitional fossils can occur between groups of any taxonomic level, such as between species, between orders, etc. Ideally, the transitional fossil should be found stratigraphically between the first occurrence of the ancestral lineage and the first occurrence of the descendent lineage, but evolution also predicts the occurrence of some fossils with transitional morphology that occur after both lineages. There's nothing in the theory of evolution which says an intermediate form (or any organism, for that matter) can have only one line of descendents, or that the intermediate form itself has to go extinct when a line of descendents evolves.

To say there are no transitional fossils is simply false. Paleontology has progressed a bit since Origin of Species was published, uncovering thousands of transitional fossils, by both the temporally restrictive and the less restrictive definitions. The fossil record is still spotty and always will be; erosion and the rarity of conditions favorable to fossilization make that inevitable. Also, transitions may occur in a small population, in a small area, and/or in a relatively short amount of time; when any of these conditions hold, the chances of finding the transitional fossils goes down. Still, there are still many instances where excellent sequences of transitional fossils exist. Some notable examples are the transitions from reptile to mammal, from land animal to early whale, and from early ape to human. For many more examples, see the transitional fossils FAQ in the talk.origins archive, and see http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/talk_origins.html for sample images for some invertebrate groups.

The misconception about the lack of transitional fossils is perpetuated in part by a common way of thinking about categories. When people think about a category like "dog" or "ant," they often subconsciously believe that there is a well-defined boundary around the category, or that there is some eternal ideal form (for philosophers, the Platonic idea) which defines the category. This kind of thinking leads people to declare that Archaeopteryx is "100% bird," when it is clearly a mix of bird and reptile features (with more reptile than bird features, in fact). In truth, categories are man-made and artificial. Nature is not constrained to follow them, and it doesn't.

Some Creationists claim that the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium was proposed (by Eldredge and Gould) to explain gaps in the fossil record. Actually, it was proposed to explain the relative rarity of transitional forms, not their total absence, and to explain why speciation appears to happen relatively quickly in some cases, gradually in others, and not at all during some periods for some species. In no way does it deny that transitional sequences exist. In fact, both Gould and Eldredge are outspoken opponents of Creationism.

"But paleontologists have discovered several superb examples of intermediary forms and sequences, more than enough to convince any fair-minded skeptic about the reality of life's physical genealogy." - Stephen Jay Gould, Natural History, May 1994
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:40 pm

From the same article, alluding to a point I raised earlier (in reply to evolution as theory rather than fact):

First, we should clarify what "evolution" means. Like so many other words, it has more than one meaning. Its strict biological definition is "a change in allele frequencies over time." By that definition, evolution is an indisputable fact. Most people seem to associate the word "evolution" mainly with common descent, the theory that all life arose from one common ancestor. Many people believe that there is enough evidence to call this a fact, too. However, common descent is still not the theory of evolution, but just a fraction of it (and a part of several quite different theories as well). The theory of evolution not only says that life evolved, it also includes mechanisms, like mutations, natural selection, and genetic drift, which go a long way towards explaining how life evolved.

Calling the theory of evolution "only a theory" is, strictly speaking, true, but the idea it tries to convey is completely wrong. The argument rests on a confusion between what "theory" means in informal usage and in a scientific context. A theory, in the scientific sense, is "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply tentativeness or lack of certainty. Generally speaking, scientific theories differ from scientific laws only in that laws can be expressed more tersely. Being a theory implies self-consistency, agreement with observations, and usefulness. (Creationism fails to be a theory mainly because of the last point; it makes few or no specific claims about what we would expect to find, so it can't be used for anything. When it does make falsifiable predictions, they prove to be false.)

Lack of proof isn't a weakness, either. On the contrary, claiming infallibility for one's conclusions is a sign of hubris. Nothing in the real world has ever been rigorously proved, or ever will be. Proof, in the mathematical sense, is possible only if you have the luxury of defining the universe you're operating in. In the real world, we must deal with levels of certainty based on observed evidence. The more and better evidence we have for something, the more certainty we assign to it; when there is enough evidence, we label the something a fact, even though it still isn't 100% certain.

What evolution has is what any good scientific claim has--evidence, and lots of it. Evolution is supported by a wide range of observations throughout the fields of genetics, anatomy, ecology, animal behavior, paleontology, and others. If you wish to challenge the theory of evolution, you must address that evidence. You must show that the evidence is either wrong or irrelevant or that it fits another theory better. Of course, to do this, you must know both the theory and the evidence.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:48 pm

Finally, in a truly Augustine work, you can find answers to all your questions. At this point, these counterpoints have been argued for twenty years or so. The fact that viceroy still holds these views only proves that the Internet does not support education.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/index.html
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby tzor on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:57 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Viceroy, for us to show you an "intermediate species" you would need to define the term. What are the qualities that an intermediate species has?


One of the problems of an "intermediate species" is that is assumes a "real" world; that is to say a world where everything has infinite gradations. So if (for example) you have a blue footed booby and a red footed bobby (assuming one evolved from the other which they didn't) you need to find the "purple" footed bobby as the intermediate species between red and blue.

But that's not how DNA works. DNA is very binary; it turns on a chemical and it turns off a chemical. The difference, for example, between a hair and a feather is a binary operation; there is no half hair / half feather. So in many cases genetic flips occur without an obvious half way step in the middle.

(In fact that is how gender works, chemical hormones flip one way for XY and the other way for XX. In fact they flip a whole number of parameters in different directions even though they are more or less the same DNA code. The simple genetic difference can even be seen in the "fossil" record because of the nature of the difference in the pelvic bone between male and female.)
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:01 pm

As an epigeneticist, I find your binary views of genetics disconcerting, tzor. I know if you induce a limb bud halfway between the hind and fore limb of a chick embryo, it will be halfway between a fore and hind limb.

I understand you are trying to help, but further obfuscating issues does not help.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby GreecePwns on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:17 pm

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Chariot of Fire wrote:As for GreecePwns.....yeah, what? A massive debt. Get a job you slacker.

Viceroy wrote:[The Biblical creation story] was written in a time when there was no way to confirm this fact and is in fact a statement of the facts.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Neoteny on Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:58 am

Viceroy63 wrote:
crispybits wrote:OK - hyenas

Image

It's a dog right?

Except it's not - it's a cat. Honestly, it's part of the feliformia sub-order, and is demonstrably related to other cat forms rather than dog forms.

There's your half cat half dog. And it's out there alive and well today.

Did you visit the links I gave? Did you actually read them? Did you see how they described how you had one order, the miacids, and from that you get evolution into the carnivora. Then from the carnivora you get bears and cats and dogs and raccoons and all sorts of other creatures?

How about the Amphicyonidae. It's extinct now, but it is half way between a bear and a dog. Google it.

Also, I don't quite understand something. You say that science says that intermediaries don't exist, and then you tell us to show you intermediaries or you won't believe science. There's a bit of a contradiction there don't you think?


There is no contradiction in my answer. Show me an intermediate species and I will believe. That simple. You post all those picture of different animals and then say to me, "voila, evolution, see!" And you can't do that. That's exactly what I stated in my Original Post...

Viceroy63 wrote:[3] The gaps are simple to understand when you realize that the Theory explains that life evolved "gradually" over millions of years. That word "gradually," is the key to understanding the gaps. If it takes millions of years for one species to evolve into another, then there should be millions of years worth of fossilized remains everywhere showing the gradual changes over all those millions of years. You just don't show a dinosaur and then a bird and say, "voila, evolution, see!"


Evolution is a gradual process taking millions of years. So then where is the intermediary creature for the animals whose photos you posted. You see you are showing complete creatures and stating that they are intermediate species but then where is their intermediary species. There should be much, much more of them just laying around. If evolution takes millions of years to happen, then there should be many more variables of creatures that exist today. And there just isn't.

Take for example the Cambrian Explosion? Did those creatures evolve into existence or did they just appear fully formed and created creatures out of nowhere. I Say out of nowhere because they certainly did not have intermediary species. I know, I was there OK. :roll:

No seriously the Cambrian Explosion was a proliferation of new life forms suddenly coming into existence. So where was Evolution then? And where is evolution now when there are no intermediary species as there should be in accordance with the Theory of Evolution? Evolution postulates slow and gradual changes in the species over millions of years so there should be millions of years worth of intermediary species with many gradual differences with us today. Or at least there should be many fossilized bones just waiting to be dug up. Where are they?

"the Cambrian strata of rocks, vintage about 600 million years, are the oldest ones in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as thought they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history. Needless to say, this appearance of sudden planting has delighted creationists.”
(The Blind Watchmaker, p. 229)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzdXVpSsdEo

betiko wrote:Why do you think all mamals have 4 members, 2 eyes, 1 nose, 2 ears, 1 tail, 1 mouth and reproduce thanks to an ovula fecundated by a male inside the female and share so much dna? what are the odds for that?


I love it when you talk dirty betiko. LOL.
:lol:

CrazyIrishman; you really need to read the original post to understand the irony in that phrase, "Unproven Hypothesis" But yes you are correct. A hypothesis and a theory are both the same in that they are both unproven. That is why it is called, now watch carefully everyone as I write this part; The THEORY of Evolution!


Nice.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Neoteny on Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:13 am

tzor wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Viceroy, for us to show you an "intermediate species" you would need to define the term. What are the qualities that an intermediate species has?


One of the problems of an "intermediate species" is that is assumes a "real" world; that is to say a world where everything has infinite gradations. So if (for example) you have a blue footed booby and a red footed bobby (assuming one evolved from the other which they didn't) you need to find the "purple" footed bobby as the intermediate species between red and blue.

But that's not how DNA works. DNA is very binary; it turns on a chemical and it turns off a chemical. The difference, for example, between a hair and a feather is a binary operation; there is no half hair / half feather. So in many cases genetic flips occur without an obvious half way step in the middle.

(In fact that is how gender works, chemical hormones flip one way for XY and the other way for XX. In fact they flip a whole number of parameters in different directions even though they are more or less the same DNA code. The simple genetic difference can even be seen in the "fossil" record because of the nature of the difference in the pelvic bone between male and female.)


You've sort of conflated the binary nature of classical genetics within a single organism with the effects of adaptational and other forms of change to the gene pool of a population over time. It's a common error, but one that a review of mid to late twentieth century scientific literature will correct.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:55 am

Viceroy63 wrote:Well you see, Darwin would disagree with your statement and so would a lot of scientist. The consensus among scientist is that there is no intermediate species.


Viceroy63 wrote:There is no contradiction in my answer. Show me an intermediate species and I will believe. That simple.


I don't talk to trolls. Goodbye.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby betiko on Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:45 am

crispybits wrote:
Viceroy63 wrote:Well you see, Darwin would disagree with your statement and so would a lot of scientist. The consensus among scientist is that there is no intermediate species.


Viceroy63 wrote:There is no contradiction in my answer. Show me an intermediate species and I will believe. That simple.


I don't talk to trolls. Goodbye.


A troll is an intermediate specie, therefore viceroy should be convinced about the theory of evolution by now if he puts a bit of effort.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Viceroy63 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:37 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Here is a well-written summary, while I wait for viceroy to give me definitions.


Please excuse the fact that I shortened the article a bit. If I wanted to I could also post articles but I am not. The Original Post on this thread is an article that I wrote based on my understanding of the theory of evolution, using my own words to describe what I know to be true and debunking what evolutionist use to present the theory of evolution as fact.

I did allude to an article and posted the link as well but that article was in support of my words. But it's cool that you posted this article because I can now proceed to dissect it apart and prove my point that what I am saying is the truth despite the fact that so called intellectual people refuse to see the evidence that evolution as a theory to explain why and how mankind is here, alive on this planet, today and for the origin of species as well, is only fiction at best.

DoomYoshi wrote:A transitional fossil is one that looks like it's from an organism intermediate between two lineages, meaning it has some characteristics of lineage A, some characteristics of lineage B, and probably some characteristics part way between the two.


The definition given in this article and perhaps even upheld by some "scientist" is not the same one that the creator and writer of "The Origin of Species," Charles Darwin, had in mind. Read carefully his own words from his own book...

Charles Darwin wrote:"But just in proportion as this process of extermination has acted on an enormous scale, so must the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed on the earth, be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record."
(The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin, 1859)


Notice the wording, "Geology assuredly does not reveal ANY such..."

In other words, Darwin saw "NO" sign of "ANY" clue of "NOTHING" that even resembles an intermediate species. Of course in the article that you posted as your comment, it went on to say that intermediate species are all around us in every living creature we see but that is only a new and modern definition invented just recently because there are no intermediate species according to Darwinism, so some "scientist" have to make it up.

In 1999 however, Professor Steve Jones had an excellent opportunity to explain all of these new found thousands of intermediate species and transitional fossils all around us, in his book, "Almost Like a Whale." But he did not. What did he say instead...

Steve Jones wrote:Geology assuredly does not reveal ANY finely graduated organic chain, and this is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against the theory of evolution.”
(Professor Steve Jones, Almost Like a Whale, p. 252)


So in 1999, Professor Steve Jones came to the same conclusion that Darwin did 140 years earlier. There are no intermediate species to be found. If ever there was an opportunity to clear this up, it was right there and then, in his revised and extensive work of Darwin's writings. In his own book, "Almost Like a Whale," Professor Steve Jones could have put this issue to rest once and for all about the intermediate species. But he didn't because he knew better than that. He would have been criticized as a liar had he put that thousands of intermediate species have been found since Darwin's day when that is simply not the case or true.

DoomYoshi wrote:To say there are no transitional fossils is simply false. Paleontology has progressed a bit since Origin of Species was published, uncovering thousands of transitional fossils, by both the temporally restrictive and the less restrictive definitions.


The writer of this article could be alluding to the Horse Exhibit which I wrote about in my own article, stating that it is a complete fabrication. In support of that I posted the...

Encyclopaedia Britanica:

"The evolution of the horse was never in a straight line."—*Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 ed.), Vol. 7, p. 13.

And...

evolution-facts.org

It has been found that every single discovery used has been fabricated or misrepresented and that is the truth. Take "Lucy" for example.

"In a recent study, Tel Aviv University anthropologists determined that Lucy’s lower jaw bone is some kind of gorilla jaw bone. Other parts of the skeleton are just like the bones of knuckle-dragging, tree-climbing gorillas. Yet Lucy has been Evolutionism's poster child. Very creatively designed sculptures of Lucy appear in tax-funded museums, and these sculptures are hoaxes, not following the obvious ape-like bone structures, but rather dishonestly presenting Lucy as if she had human-like bone structures. This is typical Evolutionary flim-flam. Evolutionists fool themselves first because of their confirmation bias. Everything looks like part of the evolutionary dream, because or Evolutionism's presupposition.
(http://www.6000years.org/frame.php?page=hoaxes)

And so I ask the question, Why do evolutionist need to lie?

Thousands of evidence of transitional fossils, or thousands of lies?

DoomYoshi wrote:The misconception about the lack of transitional fossils is perpetuated in part by a common way of thinking about categories. When people think about a category like "dog" or "ant," they often subconsciously believe that there is a well-defined boundary around the category, or that there is some eternal ideal form (for philosophers, the Platonic idea) which defines the category. This kind of thinking leads people to declare that Archaeopteryx is "100% bird," when it is clearly a mix of bird and reptile features (with more reptile than bird features, in fact). In truth, categories are man-made and artificial. Nature is not constrained to follow them, and it doesn't.


There is no misconception about the lack of transitional fossils perpetrated by "Logical thinking." Only when certain "scientist" feel the need to present evidence to support a foundationless (And I am using this word correctly) theory do we arrive at misconceptions such as this one. I am glad that you posted this article because Archaeopteryx is a perfect example of how some "scientist" purposely leave out certain facts in order to deceive the public and thus keep the people ignorant of true facts.

"Archaeopteryx lithographica was the name which geologist Sir Richard Owen gave in 1863 to one of the most unusual specimens which he was to acquire in his career as Curator of the British Museum of Natural History. It was indeed an irony that Owen, who was an opponent of Darwin's and espoused a kind neo-Platonic concept of nature with species as static archetypes, should be the person who described the creature which has come to be used as one of the prime examples of evolution... The jury is still out as to whether Archaeopteryx could simply glide from tree to tree, much like todays flying squirrels, or whether it was capable of true flight. In any event it seems that, even at best, Archaeopteryx was not a skilled aerialist."
(http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/environment/N ... teryx.html)

I would add that the title of this article is...

Flying Dinosaurs
Archaeopteryx - is this bird a fraud?
copyright Christopher Majka
all rights reserved. Reproduced from New Brunswick Naturalist, 1992

The article that you posted is dated May 1994. Two years after the excerpt that I posted. You think perhaps that Stephen Jay Gould of Natural History just missed that? Hmmm??? I wonder? :?

DoomYoshi wrote:Some Creationists claim that the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium was proposed (by Eldredge and Gould) to explain gaps in the fossil record. Actually, it was proposed to explain the relative rarity of transitional forms, not their total absence, and to explain why speciation appears to happen relatively quickly in some cases, gradually in others, and not at all during some periods for some species. In no way does it deny that transitional sequences exist. In fact, both Gould and Eldredge are outspoken opponents of Creationism.


So in other words what we have here is an "Evolving" theory of the theory of evolution. Darwin says one thing and because it can't be proven, it's altered so that it seems more plausible of an explanation if changed slightly. But which is it then? Does evolution occur gradually over millions of years, or can we choose and pick our own flavor of evolution? "I like mine to be Orange/Mango with the mint frosting on top." LOL.

Because apparently now we can choose how evolution happens. It either takes millions of years of gradual changes or as stated above, "it was proposed to explain the relative rarity of transitional forms, not their total absence, and to explain why speciation appears to happen relatively quickly in some cases, gradually in others, and not at all during some periods for some species."

Notice the words, "It was Proposed!" The very article admits it's own alteration to the theory of evolution itself. What more need I say?

[Note]
In the very same article that you posted, there are thousands of transitional species and at the same time in the "New Theory," it's proposed in order to explain the "relative rarity of transitional forms." Which is it then? Are there many trasitional forms or few? If scientist can't agree in the very same article written, then how are we to believe them?

DoomYoshi wrote:"But paleontologists have discovered several superb examples of intermediary forms and sequences, more than enough to convince any fair-minded skeptic about the reality of life's physical genealogy." - Stephen Jay Gould, Natural History, May 1994


I continue to maintain as I stated in my Original Post...

[14] But until not too recently the evolution of the horse has been shown for what it really is. A cruel hoax on an unsuspecting public for the advancement of monetary funds. I see no other way to describe a situation where scientist purposely mislead and defraud the public trust with false evidence to support the theory of evolution that can not be supported or proven. Where no evidence can be found it must be made up or invented. But why?

And finally, not in my words...

"Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn’t changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin’s time.

"By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information. What appeared to be a nice, simple progression when relatively few data were available now appears to be much more complex and much less gradualistic. So Darwin’s problem [with the fossil record] has not been alleviated."

—*David M. Raup, in Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin 50 (1979), p. 29.
Last edited by Viceroy63 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Symmetry on Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:48 pm

TLDR: Viceroy hasn't read Darwin, equates Darwin's theories with modern evolutionary theory. Next up, Viceroy takes on the "Newtonists", or as people with a degree of sense call them, Physicists.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby comic boy on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:04 pm

Symmetry wrote:TLDR: Viceroy hasn't read Darwin, equates Darwin's theories with modern evolutionary theory. Next up, Viceroy takes on the "Newtonists", or as people with a degree of sense call them, Physicists.


I actually started laughing whilst reading his last post , surely nobody is that dense , definitely a Troll.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:49 pm

You don't need intermediate species to prove evolution. And Evolution doesn't hinge on intermediate species. Evolution would still be true if you had no fossils. They're just bonus' for paleontologists. Biologists have proven evolution in the lab, and so have botanists. Zoologists have proven it in the wild.
Oh, and whatever those bacteria scientists are called... because you all remember the 90,000 generation E. Coli lab experiment that produced new bacterias. Those guys proved it too.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby crispybits on Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:29 pm

Regardless of whether we need them or not, they have them:

http://ncse.com/rncse/20/5/origin-whale ... t-evidence
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:11 pm

Symmetry wrote:TLDR: Viceroy hasn't read Darwin, equates Darwin's theories with modern evolutionary theory. Next up, Viceroy takes on the "Newtonists", or as people with a degree of sense call them, Physicists.


It is rather interesting that lay people are perfectly willing to challenge professional scientists in exactly three disciplines (evolution, global warming and the Moon landings) but conveniently don't seem to find fault in the work of other professional scientists.
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Re: An Unproven Hypothesis, The Rise of Ignorance.

Postby Neoteny on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:51 am

Immunology and "Western medicine" are often targets too.
Napoleon Ier wrote:You people need to grow up to be honest.
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