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Metsfanmax wrote:Thank you Morgan Freeman*.
comic boy wrote:I dont advocate a gun ban , its probably unworkable in any case , but in the long term I would like to see a mentality shift . The idea that one has to carry a firearm to feel safe , the notion that owning a gun enhances ones freedom, the fear mongering propoganda spewed out by the NRA , these are all highly negative mindsets.
To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding.
thegreekdog wrote:comic boy wrote:I dont advocate a gun ban , its probably unworkable in any case , but in the long term I would like to see a mentality shift . The idea that one has to carry a firearm to feel safe , the notion that owning a gun enhances ones freedom, the fear mongering propoganda spewed out by the NRA , these are all highly negative mindsets.
These ideas (carrying a firearm to feel safe, enhancing freedom, fear mongering propaganda) are not ideas perpetuated by anyone other than gun owners who do not use their firearms for any illegal purpose. People committing crimes with guns are not carrying firearms to feel safe, do not feel that firearms enhance their freedom, and are not fear mongering. As someone smarter than me wrote above:To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding.
thegreekdog wrote:comic boy wrote:I dont advocate a gun ban , its probably unworkable in any case , but in the long term I would like to see a mentality shift . The idea that one has to carry a firearm to feel safe , the notion that owning a gun enhances ones freedom, the fear mongering propoganda spewed out by the NRA , these are all highly negative mindsets.
These ideas (carrying a firearm to feel safe, enhancing freedom, fear mongering propaganda) are not ideas perpetuated by anyone other than gun owners who do not use their firearms for any illegal purpose. People committing crimes with guns are not carrying firearms to feel safe, do not feel that firearms enhance their freedom, and are not fear mongering. As someone smarter than me wrote above:To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding.
Phatscotty wrote:that is utter and complete bullshit. The overwhelming vast majority of legal gun owners are responsible. they absolutely make you more safe, whether you admit it or not. Nothing you said prevents a bad guy from getting a gun illegaly, it only ensures that the legal gun owners can do nothing to stop bad guys who go on shooting rampages
Under your logic, every mass shooter will be able to kill at will until they run out of bullets. Nobody will be able to stop them.
AAFitz wrote:And it is absolutely true, that by you fighting for a freedom to carry a gun, you steal my freedom of feeling safe without one.
Lootifer wrote:Phatscotty wrote:it was an accident. truth be told, I asked about it here yesterday and the day before. didn't get a response
Thanks for pointing it out, Symm
I had heard they found the assault rifle in the trunk...
In your defense I too had heard the murders were done with two handguns. It seems there was a bit of misinformation at the beginning.
stahrgazer wrote:AAFitz wrote:And it is absolutely true, that by you fighting for a freedom to carry a gun, you steal my freedom of feeling safe without one.
People get stabbed by kitchen knives, knives need to be outlawed! People get hit by cars, cars ought to be outlawed! Occasionally a dog bites someone, dogs ought to be outlawed! Hey, that baseball bat can and has been a lethal weapon, outlaw baseball bats!
Because if you don't outlaw all these things, I cannot feel safe without my gun.
gordon1975 wrote:in Scotland we had the Dunblane school massacre,we really don't have very much guns in this part of the world,from the 60,s through to the late 80,s ,the media gave serial killers fancy names,and gave them mass coverage,Made them famous and gave them recognition for there deeds,sames happening now with these pricks that are shooting up schools,don't give the offenders media attention ,just make the headlines worldwide say (some twat murdered) only go on about the victims, and id think that should curb the sad idiots that want there notoriety
comic boy wrote:thegreekdog wrote:comic boy wrote:I dont advocate a gun ban , its probably unworkable in any case , but in the long term I would like to see a mentality shift . The idea that one has to carry a firearm to feel safe , the notion that owning a gun enhances ones freedom, the fear mongering propoganda spewed out by the NRA , these are all highly negative mindsets.
These ideas (carrying a firearm to feel safe, enhancing freedom, fear mongering propaganda) are not ideas perpetuated by anyone other than gun owners who do not use their firearms for any illegal purpose. People committing crimes with guns are not carrying firearms to feel safe, do not feel that firearms enhance their freedom, and are not fear mongering. As someone smarter than me wrote above:To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding.
The ideas translate into gun sales, guns , legal or not , lead to deaths , law abiding citizens still manage to accidently kill others. Bottom line is that the more guns in circulation , the more deaths there will be , reduce the guns and the end result will be fewer fatalities.
Answer me a simple question ; Do you think the number of firearms in circulation corelates to the number of gun deaths and would the USA be a safer society today if stricter gun controls had been in place for say the last 30 years.
AAFitz wrote:thegreekdog wrote:comic boy wrote:I dont advocate a gun ban , its probably unworkable in any case , but in the long term I would like to see a mentality shift . The idea that one has to carry a firearm to feel safe , the notion that owning a gun enhances ones freedom, the fear mongering propoganda spewed out by the NRA , these are all highly negative mindsets.
These ideas (carrying a firearm to feel safe, enhancing freedom, fear mongering propaganda) are not ideas perpetuated by anyone other than gun owners who do not use their firearms for any illegal purpose. People committing crimes with guns are not carrying firearms to feel safe, do not feel that firearms enhance their freedom, and are not fear mongering. As someone smarter than me wrote above:To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding.
That's completely untrue. Many things are illegal because they are dangerous and can be used by criminals to cause great harm.
Further, there is absolutely no doubt that people who have committed crimes with their guns, also argued for their right to carry those arms as well.
And it is absolutely true, that by you fighting for a freedom to carry a gun, you steal my freedom of feeling safe without one.
comic boy wrote:TGD
I wouldn't have the least idea how present levels of gun violence in the USA compare with previous centuries , you got any stats ?
Gun related deaths are related to the quantity and availability of guns, period. Would homocides stop without the availability of guns , of course not , but accidental deaths and spree killings would almost certainly decrease.
thegreekdog wrote:comic boy wrote:TGD
I wouldn't have the least idea how present levels of gun violence in the USA compare with previous centuries , you got any stats ?
Gun related deaths are related to the quantity and availability of guns, period. Would homocides stop without the availability of guns , of course not , but accidental deaths and spree killings would almost certainly decrease.
Yeah, I think that would be the case as well, I'm just not sure. Unfortunately, my firm has an automatic block on any searches involving the word "gun" on google (this is also related to reason I cannot see many Hot and Sexy pictures in that thread) and wikipedia only has statistics from 1976 to 2004.
Here is a link to the graph in Wiki...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ushom ... weapon.svg
It details homicides (which include suicides and accidental killings) by weapon type. Handguns account for by far the most deaths and reached a peak in 1993 of about 14,000. "Other guns" (not sure what is in that category) accounted for far less (less than knives, for example) and had a peak in 1980 of about 4,000.
I suspect that the legality and availability of guns do have a relation to homicides in the United States. That seems like common sense. But, ultimately, the question is whether there is some other factor at work. That could be anything from cultural issues generally and criminality generally to poor schools to violent video games and movies.
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