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Should Schools Have an Armed Professional on Campus?

 
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:15 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Imagine how much more you could improve the quality of education in that school system with two million dollars (which is a non-trivial fraction of nearly any district's annual budget).


This statement is not based in reality (at least as far as my experience and knowledge of school districts go). The quality of education would not improve if you sunk $200 million into the school district. We already spend more per child on education than any other country in the world.


This is patently false based on the research literature. There are a number of proven ways to leverage investments to actually increase the quality of education. The fact that you can dump in two million dollars without much effect doesn't mean that's it guaranteed. Also, remember that a lot of our education spending is for the infrastructure of the system, rather than actual aid dollars to individual school districts. The marginal impact of your dollar is greater if you give it directly to a school district rather than to the federal government or the state.


I highlighted why your statements aren't based in reality (the rest of your post supports that this doesn't happen, incidentally). The red type above doesn't really happen. It could happen, I suppose, if you take out the rent-seeking element associated with our public education system.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Lootifer on Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:24 pm

The Socialist murderer


Do you actually have information to support calling this shooter a socialist PS or are you just assuming?

You didnt link an article is all.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:01 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I didn't vote in the poll. I'd lean close to 'sounds like a good idea' but frankly not every school necessarily has the budget for that sort of thing.



Where there's a will, there's a way.


I don't support increasing school budgets for armed guards.


So where does school security rank for you when it comes to priorities?
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:07 pm

Lootifer wrote:
The Socialist murderer


Do you actually have information to support calling this shooter a socialist PS or are you just assuming?

You didnt link an article is all.


Yes, tons of information, first hand, second hand, his facebook page is dominated by hateful obsessive messages against Republicans.

He was a Socialist, loud and proud. Our media is not reporting it at all. Even though this is the 20th Lefty psycho in a row. The media continues to protect Lefty's. There is even a newspaper who initially wrote Socialist when describing this shooter, and it was edited out. Because this goes against their narrative that it's right wingers that need to be feared.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:53 pm

Lord Arioch wrote:I wonder if we in Sweden ever had a school shooting that actually happened. The police have arrested kidz for talking, and threatening to do it but i dont think its actually happened here.
Might be something to learn for u here? :D


Before I even consider responding to that, how in the world could you possibly even think the 2 countries are comparable?
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:13 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Met's, it's one person. It's for security. ...a militia..LMAO! silly. My town just passed a 2 million dollar school levy for bulletproof windows and metal detectors. I don't really think you are qualified for this topic.


Imagine how much more you could improve the quality of education in that school system with two million dollars (which is a non-trivial fraction of nearly any district's annual budget). The number of school shootings is so low as a fraction of the total number of schools in the U.S. that it's simply not a cost-effective measure. You're simply much more likely to do good for the children by improving their education than by buying bulletproof windows.

As for the "it's just one person" argument: you can use the same rationale for hiring another security guard, just in case. And another. You can't justify the salary of an armed professional on the basis that "it can stop a shooting massacre." You have to justify how likely that is to happen, given both the rate of shooting events in schools, and how likely the officer is to be able to stop an active shooting event in progress (or to deter such events from happening). It's much easier to make this argument if the "armed professional" is not simply a guard for the students but plays the "school resource officer" role that most resident police officers do in schools.


This isn't about education performance, this is about security. And it doesn't have to specifically be in the name of 'preventing a massacre' don't know why you would even try to pretend it was, but that's on you. It's in the name of security and protection and safety.

And you seem to be saying school shootings are not that big a deal, and they are rare, so we don't need to do anything. I wonder if a single person agrees with you
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby mrswdk on Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:28 pm

Phats, you know that 'liberals' and Democrats in the US are not socialists, right?
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Lootifer on Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:35 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
The Socialist murderer


Do you actually have information to support calling this shooter a socialist PS or are you just assuming?

You didnt link an article is all.


Yes, tons of information, first hand, second hand, his facebook page is dominated by hateful obsessive messages against Republicans.

He was a Socialist, loud and proud. Our media is not reporting it at all. Even though this is the 20th Lefty psycho in a row. The media continues to protect Lefty's. There is even a newspaper who initially wrote Socialist when describing this shooter, and it was edited out. Because this goes against their narrative that it's right wingers that need to be feared.

Its not a particularly good article (on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being "some dude said" and 10 being multiple source for every statistically substantiated claim, i'd give it about a 2 or 3) but it does make some useful comments:

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-ide ... -is-a-myth

Specifically and relating to my main point:
Let me also state that given that neither major political party condones mass shooter violence in any way, shape or form, and that all these acts are individual acts of violence that are not sanctioned by either elected Democrats or Republicans (at least not mainstream leaders in either party), the very notion that they are acting on behalf of a political party is itself problematic. This is not to say that mass shootings are apolitical acts, but rather it is to say that as political acts they may express an ideology (racism, misogyny, entitlement, psychosis, etc) but they do not in general express alignment with a political party or if they do it is not an association that the Democrats or Republicans would accept as legitimate (neither party wants to claim James Holmes or Adam Lanza as a member in good standing, no matter what Holmes or Lanza feels about them).
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby patrickaa317 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:24 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I didn't vote in the poll. I'd lean close to 'sounds like a good idea' but frankly not every school necessarily has the budget for that sort of thing.


"But it's for the children though!" Isn't that the reason for putting a bunch of social programs in place even though there may not be the budget for it?


It certainly seems that teaching is one of those professions that a lot of people think they can tell teachers how to do better without ever having stepped in front of a classroom.


What does teaching have to do with an armed guard at the school? I've always thought the best option would be to have capable teachers who are certified conceal/carry in school only if they desire. No student should know which teachers do or do not carry. But ensure they know that their ass is 100% on the line.


When I was in high school, a couple of my teachers got in scolded because they were purchasing guns and having them shipped to the school because they needed delivery signatures and it was the best place for that to happen. This was a poor decision on their part and it probably had went on for years but only once it was made public was anything done. Noone was ever hurt nor were these firearms ever even taken out of the box. But can you imagine what would happen if the same thing was done today!
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:09 am

patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I didn't vote in the poll. I'd lean close to 'sounds like a good idea' but frankly not every school necessarily has the budget for that sort of thing.


"But it's for the children though!" Isn't that the reason for putting a bunch of social programs in place even though there may not be the budget for it?


It certainly seems that teaching is one of those professions that a lot of people think they can tell teachers how to do better without ever having stepped in front of a classroom.


What does teaching have to do with an armed guard at the school? I've always thought the best option would be to have capable teachers who are certified conceal/carry in school only if they desire. No student should know which teachers do or do not carry. But ensure they know that their ass is 100% on the line.


It has to do with what I was posting after that -- that you don't just get an armed guard for free. It costs money to increase school security, and many school districts just don't have the budgets to have the type of security they want (e.g. metal detectors in urban schools). My father is a school superintendent and I've discussed school budget issues with him at length, including this specific question after the Newtown shooting. School shootings are a tragedy but they are incredibly rare and it's just irresponsible to take away a teacher's job to hire an armed guard.

I fully expect that Phatscotty will not understand this perspective, for the same reason he'd be opposed to health care rationing. He is a poster child for the identifiable victim effect.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:26 am

Lootifer wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Lootifer wrote:
The Socialist murderer


Do you actually have information to support calling this shooter a socialist PS or are you just assuming?

You didnt link an article is all.


Yes, tons of information, first hand, second hand, his facebook page is dominated by hateful obsessive messages against Republicans. But this shooting was about the insanity that comes from obsession with wealth inequality.

He was a Socialist, loud and proud. Our media is not reporting it at all. Even though this is the 20th Lefty psycho in a row. The media continues to protect Lefty's. There is even a newspaper who initially wrote Socialist when describing this shooter, and it was edited out. Because this goes against their narrative that it's right wingers that need to be feared.

Its not a particularly good article (on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being "some dude said" and 10 being multiple source for every statistically substantiated claim, i'd give it about a 2 or 3) but it does make some useful comments:

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-ide ... -is-a-myth

Specifically and relating to my main point:
Let me also state that given that neither major political party condones mass shooter violence in any way, shape or form, and that all these acts are individual acts of violence that are not sanctioned by either elected Democrats or Republicans (at least not mainstream leaders in either party), the very notion that they are acting on behalf of a political party is itself problematic. This is not to say that mass shootings are apolitical acts, but rather it is to say that as political acts they may express an ideology (racism, misogyny, entitlement, psychosis, etc) but they do not in general express alignment with a political party or if they do it is not an association that the Democrats or Republicans would accept as legitimate (neither party wants to claim James Holmes or Adam Lanza as a member in good standing, no matter what Holmes or Lanza feels about them).


Nice try, but I don't think anyone has or will be making the claim that the Democrat Party officially orders or endorses these massacres. I have and more and more people are starting to make the claim that it's the philosophy of Leftism that makes people crazy and snap. Progressivism is poison.

I'm sorry all the information does not make it to your country. I already pointed out the media here is covering up the mentally ill philosophy, as usual, so really the truth is still trying to see the light of day in my country as well.

It's not that 'some dude said he was a Socialist'....The Shooter did not make it a secret at all that he was a Socialist who wanted all guns banned, obsessive hatred of Republicans.

As to bringing up other recent shooters and trying to cover for them...they were all Lefty's. I am entertained though on how the narrative is perfectly fine with jumping to conclusions when it comes to suspecting right wing extremism, but when it turns out AGAIN that it's another crazy Lefty, it's all "PROOF! SHOW ME PROOF HE WAS A SOCIALIST!!! JUST BECAUSE HE SAID HE'S A SOCIALIST ISN'T EVIDENCE HE IS A SOCIALIST!!!"

"He was friendly enough. Very proud of being a socialist. He was very outspoken on his political views," student Angie Mock said. "To him, it just meant economic -- more economic equality."


resist these facts all you like and let them make you angry that the problem here is in fact Progressivism.

Sept 2009: census-taker Bill Sparkman found hanged in rural Kentucky. Media speculated it was Tea Party. (He killed himself.)
Feb 2010: Joe Stack flies small plane into an IRS building. Anti-tax TP rhetoric blamed. (He quoted from the Communist Manifesto.)
Feb 2010: Amy Bishop shoots colleagues at University of Alabama faculty meeting. Gun-loving Tea Party suspected. (She was an Obama voter.)
March 2010: John Patrick Bedell shot two Pentagon security. A right-wing extremist, media asked? (A registered Democrat and 9/11 Truther.)
May 2010: massive Times Square car bomb found. Bloomberg speculates it's someone upset about ACA. (Actually, plain vanilla jihadist scum.)
August 2010: Amid GZM debate, Muslim cabbie stabbed in NYC. Media speculates: a RWNJ? (Actually, a Lefty art student off his meds.)
Sept 2010: James Lee takes hostages at Discovery Chan HQ. Media speculates: climate change denier? (An environmentalist who hates humans.)
Jan 2011: Jared Lee Loughner shoots up campaign event of Rep. Giffords. Media: TP rhetoric is to blame despite Loughner's anti-religious rants, drug abuse, and no political affiliation. (An apolitical conspiracy theorist.)
July 2012: James Holmes shoots up theater in Aurora, CO. Brian Ross suggests he's a TPer on live TV. (Just another unmedicated nutter.)
April 2013: Tsarnaev bros bomb Boston Marathon. Media suggests RWNJ commemorating "Patriot's Day." (Actually, just more jihadist scum.)
Oct. 2013: Media retroactively blames right wing for JFK assassination. (Actually, LHO was a communist defector.)
Dec 2013: student shoots up CO high school w/ shotgun. Denver Post scrubs his self-described "socialist" beliefs. (We're on to you, media.)

It's just like I always said, the Left constantly suspects the right of doing things only Lefty's do

Since I am aware who I am talking to and how yall think, I'll be sure to address the jumped conclusions you will respond with, so here it goes. Not all Liberals are misguided, not all Conservatives are misguided. There are bad people on the Left, there are bad people on the Right. There are good people on the Left, there are good people on the Right. There are racist on the Left, there are racists on the right. There are psychos on the Left, there are psychos on the Right. There are bad ideas on the Left, there are bad ideas on the Right. In conclusion, I'm not talking about anyone else except for the people I am talking about,
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:56 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I didn't vote in the poll. I'd lean close to 'sounds like a good idea' but frankly not every school necessarily has the budget for that sort of thing.


"But it's for the children though!" Isn't that the reason for putting a bunch of social programs in place even though there may not be the budget for it?


It certainly seems that teaching is one of those professions that a lot of people think they can tell teachers how to do better without ever having stepped in front of a classroom.


What does teaching have to do with an armed guard at the school? I've always thought the best option would be to have capable teachers who are certified conceal/carry in school only if they desire. No student should know which teachers do or do not carry. But ensure they know that their ass is 100% on the line.


It has to do with what I was posting after that -- that you don't just get an armed guard for free. It costs money to increase school security, and many school districts just don't have the budgets to have the type of security they want (e.g. metal detectors in urban schools). My father is a school superintendent and I've discussed school budget issues with him at length, including this specific question after the Newtown shooting. School shootings are a tragedy but they are incredibly rare and it's just irresponsible to take away a teacher's job to hire an armed guard.

I fully expect that Phatscotty will not understand this perspective, for the same reason he'd be opposed to health care rationing. He is a poster child for the identifiable victim effect.


:lol: Bring me right into your conversation why don't you?? I am honored you refer to me when you get into a tight spot and want to dodge out. Of course I don't understand your perspective, which is "throw millions at social programs, but when it comes to 25 thousand dollars to keep the students safe....WELL NOW THAT'S WHERE I DRAW THE LINE AN START CARING ABOUT BUDGETS!' And then your perspective get's even more screwy by trying to change it to metals detectors, which nobody is talking about. Not to mention, you make a serious error by thinking there are not plenty of people who would be honored to keep children safe and do this out of common sense. A government job is not the only option :lol:

oppose health care rationing? How can you make that assumption when you know good and well I am and always have been against Obamacare!!! Ration yourself when it comes to health care all you want, but we know that's not good enough, as you want to force everyone's health care to be rationed. Which again sounds like the complete opposite of what you used to say, which was that healthcare was being rationed on the poor, and that needs to change! I was right about you all along, that you caring about the poor was a front, when really you wanted to ration everyone.

And you didn't even address Patricka's point about all the spending on social programs. I know why.
Last edited by Phatscotty on Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:03 am

patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I didn't vote in the poll. I'd lean close to 'sounds like a good idea' but frankly not every school necessarily has the budget for that sort of thing.


"But it's for the children though!" Isn't that the reason for putting a bunch of social programs in place even though there may not be the budget for it?


It certainly seems that teaching is one of those professions that a lot of people think they can tell teachers how to do better without ever having stepped in front of a classroom.


What does teaching have to do with an armed guard at the school? I've always thought the best option would be to have capable teachers who are certified conceal/carry in school only if they desire. No student should know which teachers do or do not carry. But ensure they know that their ass is 100% on the line.


When I was in high school, a couple of my teachers got in scolded because they were purchasing guns and having them shipped to the school because they needed delivery signatures and it was the best place for that to happen. This was a poor decision on their part and it probably had went on for years but only once it was made public was anything done. Noone was ever hurt nor were these firearms ever even taken out of the box. But can you imagine what would happen if the same thing was done today!


When my grandpa was in high school, students used to store their guns in their vehicles, lockers, and even brought them in for show and tell. Might sound unbelievable, but it used to be normal. It's only unbelievable because now society is broken and it's hard to imagine a people with such respect and self control and education on rights and value of life, perhaps it has something to do with being God-fearing and allowing 'thou shall not murder' to be taught and repeated and repeated and repeated in school, just a wild wild wild guess though. But forget the 50's, even in the 80's I remember schools let students use straight edge razors to learn how to shave on each other. Crazy right? Not really, it's only crazy because of the wussy society that accompanies a nanny state.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:53 am

Phatscotty wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I didn't vote in the poll. I'd lean close to 'sounds like a good idea' but frankly not every school necessarily has the budget for that sort of thing.



Where there's a will, there's a way.


I don't support increasing school budgets for armed guards.


So where does school security rank for you when it comes to priorities?


Low to none.

Where does school security rank for you when it comes to priorities?
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby patrickaa317 on Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:02 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I didn't vote in the poll. I'd lean close to 'sounds like a good idea' but frankly not every school necessarily has the budget for that sort of thing.


"But it's for the children though!" Isn't that the reason for putting a bunch of social programs in place even though there may not be the budget for it?


It certainly seems that teaching is one of those professions that a lot of people think they can tell teachers how to do better without ever having stepped in front of a classroom.


What does teaching have to do with an armed guard at the school? I've always thought the best option would be to have capable teachers who are certified conceal/carry in school only if they desire. No student should know which teachers do or do not carry. But ensure they know that their ass is 100% on the line.


It has to do with what I was posting after that -- that you don't just get an armed guard for free. It costs money to increase school security, and many school districts just don't have the budgets to have the type of security they want (e.g. metal detectors in urban schools). My father is a school superintendent and I've discussed school budget issues with him at length, including this specific question after the Newtown shooting. School shootings are a tragedy but they are incredibly rare and it's just irresponsible to take away a teacher's job to hire an armed guard.

I fully expect that Phatscotty will not understand this perspective, for the same reason he'd be opposed to health care rationing. He is a poster child for the identifiable victim effect.


What about my thought on capable certified teachers being able to conceal and carry at school if they desire? That would add $0 to school budget.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:56 am

patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I didn't vote in the poll. I'd lean close to 'sounds like a good idea' but frankly not every school necessarily has the budget for that sort of thing.


"But it's for the children though!" Isn't that the reason for putting a bunch of social programs in place even though there may not be the budget for it?


It certainly seems that teaching is one of those professions that a lot of people think they can tell teachers how to do better without ever having stepped in front of a classroom.


What does teaching have to do with an armed guard at the school? I've always thought the best option would be to have capable teachers who are certified conceal/carry in school only if they desire. No student should know which teachers do or do not carry. But ensure they know that their ass is 100% on the line.


It has to do with what I was posting after that -- that you don't just get an armed guard for free. It costs money to increase school security, and many school districts just don't have the budgets to have the type of security they want (e.g. metal detectors in urban schools). My father is a school superintendent and I've discussed school budget issues with him at length, including this specific question after the Newtown shooting. School shootings are a tragedy but they are incredibly rare and it's just irresponsible to take away a teacher's job to hire an armed guard.

I fully expect that Phatscotty will not understand this perspective, for the same reason he'd be opposed to health care rationing. He is a poster child for the identifiable victim effect.


What about my thought on capable certified teachers being able to conceal and carry at school if they desire? That would add $0 to school budget.


It's based on a single anecdotal example of guns existing at a school without hurting anyone. Since school shootings are rare to begin with, it's not a strong argument. To justify allowing any teacher with a permit to concealed carry, you'd have to demonstrate that the benefit is greater than the harm (there would be fewer additional accidental -- or intentional -- shootings because of those guns, than shootings prevented by those guns).
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Lootifer on Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:43 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Nice try, but I don't think anyone has or will be making the claim that the Democrat Party officially orders or endorses these massacres. I have and more and more people are starting to make the claim that it's the philosophy of Leftism that makes people crazy and snap. Progressivism is poison.

Right can you please explain what you mean by progressivism, leftism and socialism? Do you use them interchangably? Do you understand that each of these classifications is not binary? (e.g. you can be extremist left, you can be moderately left or you could be a little bit left).

Before continuing can you please answer all of those questions; theyre important/

I'm sorry all the information does not make it to your country. I already pointed out the media here is covering up the mentally ill philosophy, as usual, so really the truth is still trying to see the light of day in my country as well.

It's not that 'some dude said he was a Socialist'....The Shooter did not make it a secret at all that he was a Socialist who wanted all guns banned, obsessive hatred of Republicans.

As to bringing up other recent shooters and trying to cover for them...they were all Lefty's. I am entertained though on how the narrative is perfectly fine with jumping to conclusions when it comes to suspecting right wing extremism, but when it turns out AGAIN that it's another crazy Lefty, it's all "PROOF! SHOW ME PROOF HE WAS A SOCIALIST!!! JUST BECAUSE HE SAID HE'S A SOCIALIST ISN'T EVIDENCE HE IS A SOCIALIST!!!"

Did you miss the bit where I said the article was shit? (2 out of 10 is not good fwiw). My point in linking it was: their political alignment is meaningless. You stretch any political alignment from conservative to liberal, from communist to anarchist, to the absolute extreme and you find a sample of these nuts. What they believe is rather secondary, the issue is they are insane and have no respect for human life (and this is where I disagree with you, I dont believe this is in anyway linked to political alignment: liberals are just as likely as communists, anarchists and conservatives to be bonkers).

It's just like I always said, the Left constantly suspects the right of doing things only Lefty's do

Yet you go on below to say that there are crazies on both sides... which is it?

Since I am aware who I am talking to and how yall think, I'll be sure to address the jumped conclusions you will respond with, so here it goes. Not all Liberals are misguided, not all Conservatives are misguided. There are bad people on the Left, there are bad people on the Right. There are good people on the Left, there are good people on the Right. There are racist on the Left, there are racists on the right. There are psychos on the Left, there are psychos on the Right. There are bad ideas on the Left, there are bad ideas on the Right. In conclusion, I'm not talking about anyone else except for the people I am talking about,

Good stuff on predicting my response, but you type the words at the end yet say something different in the rest of your post. Your implication above is that left/liberal/progressive attitudes some how makes people crazy (see poison comment). That means you are talking about all leftys/liberals/progressives; not just the crazy ones.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:15 pm

Lootifer, I did not miss the part where you said the article is shit, it probably is shit. There's only one thing though....it's your article, not mine. So basically you pulled your own shitty article. My information is based on what the shooter said to other people as well as on his facebook page.
There are also a few interviews out there from friends and people who knew him, saying he was a proud Socialist. And he hated Republicans BIG TIME, and talked about death a lot in conjunction with Republicans.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:16 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:I didn't vote in the poll. I'd lean close to 'sounds like a good idea' but frankly not every school necessarily has the budget for that sort of thing.



Where there's a will, there's a way.


I don't support increasing school budgets for armed guards.


So where does school security rank for you when it comes to priorities?


Low to none.

Where does school security rank for you when it comes to priorities?


Very high, up there with food, shelter, and restrooms.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:27 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
"But it's for the children though!" Isn't that the reason for putting a bunch of social programs in place even though there may not be the budget for it?


It certainly seems that teaching is one of those professions that a lot of people think they can tell teachers how to do better without ever having stepped in front of a classroom.


What does teaching have to do with an armed guard at the school? I've always thought the best option would be to have capable teachers who are certified conceal/carry in school only if they desire. No student should know which teachers do or do not carry. But ensure they know that their ass is 100% on the line.


It has to do with what I was posting after that -- that you don't just get an armed guard for free. It costs money to increase school security, and many school districts just don't have the budgets to have the type of security they want (e.g. metal detectors in urban schools). My father is a school superintendent and I've discussed school budget issues with him at length, including this specific question after the Newtown shooting. School shootings are a tragedy but they are incredibly rare and it's just irresponsible to take away a teacher's job to hire an armed guard.

I fully expect that Phatscotty will not understand this perspective, for the same reason he'd be opposed to health care rationing. He is a poster child for the identifiable victim effect.


What about my thought on capable certified teachers being able to conceal and carry at school if they desire? That would add $0 to school budget.


It's based on a single anecdotal example of guns existing at a school without hurting anyone. Since school shootings are rare to begin with, it's not a strong argument. To justify allowing any teacher with a permit to concealed carry, you'd have to demonstrate that the benefit is greater than the harm (there would be fewer additional accidental -- or intentional -- shootings because of those guns, than shootings prevented by those guns).


Um, there is far more evidence that people who conceal n carry have saved lives in schools, and not just one time. You can be awfully full of it.

However, more to your point, what is your evidence a conceal carry permit holder has caused any harm in a school? We're gonna need to know that before we can demonstrate the harms compared to the benefits. What are the harms?
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:56 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Very high, up there with food, shelter, and restrooms.


Cool. Then you can pay for it because there's no way I am. Freaking progressive...
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby patrickaa317 on Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:33 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:
"But it's for the children though!" Isn't that the reason for putting a bunch of social programs in place even though there may not be the budget for it?


It certainly seems that teaching is one of those professions that a lot of people think they can tell teachers how to do better without ever having stepped in front of a classroom.


What does teaching have to do with an armed guard at the school? I've always thought the best option would be to have capable teachers who are certified conceal/carry in school only if they desire. No student should know which teachers do or do not carry. But ensure they know that their ass is 100% on the line.


It has to do with what I was posting after that -- that you don't just get an armed guard for free. It costs money to increase school security, and many school districts just don't have the budgets to have the type of security they want (e.g. metal detectors in urban schools). My father is a school superintendent and I've discussed school budget issues with him at length, including this specific question after the Newtown shooting. School shootings are a tragedy but they are incredibly rare and it's just irresponsible to take away a teacher's job to hire an armed guard.

I fully expect that Phatscotty will not understand this perspective, for the same reason he'd be opposed to health care rationing. He is a poster child for the identifiable victim effect.


What about my thought on capable certified teachers being able to conceal and carry at school if they desire? That would add $0 to school budget.


It's based on a single anecdotal example of guns existing at a school without hurting anyone. Since school shootings are rare to begin with, it's not a strong argument. To justify allowing any teacher with a permit to concealed carry, you'd have to demonstrate that the benefit is greater than the harm (there would be fewer additional accidental -- or intentional -- shootings because of those guns, than shootings prevented by those guns).


Any accidental or intentional shootings because of these guns would ensure the guilty party being held fully accountable. Do you know off hand if this has been tried anywhere? I don't and I haven't really looked for it. Most of these shooters are cowards that tend to choose gun free zones, if we can eliminate that aspect, I would assume this would make such a heinous crime even more rare.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:20 am

patrickaa317 wrote:Any accidental or intentional shootings because of these guns would ensure the guilty party being held fully accountable.


School shootings usually result in the guilty party being held fully accountable. That's not really the point; we want to minimize the total number of school shootings.

One aspect I'm seriously concerned about is that, of course, if you have a gun you're more likely to use it, which can just escalate a situation. For example, what if a teacher decides he needs to pull his gun to stop a school fight? I don't see that as being acceptable.

Do you know off hand if this has been tried anywhere? I don't and I haven't really looked for it. Most of these shooters are cowards that tend to choose gun free zones, if we can eliminate that aspect, I would assume this would make such a heinous crime even more rare.


Utah allows concealed carry for teachers.
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Re: Repeal Gun Free School Zones!?

Postby patrickaa317 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:24 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
patrickaa317 wrote:Any accidental or intentional shootings because of these guns would ensure the guilty party being held fully accountable.


School shootings usually result in the guilty party being held fully accountable. That's not really the point; we want to minimize the total number of school shootings.

One aspect I'm seriously concerned about is that, of course, if you have a gun you're more likely to use it, which can just escalate a situation. For example, what if a teacher decides he needs to pull his gun to stop a school fight? I don't see that as being acceptable.

Do you know off hand if this has been tried anywhere? I don't and I haven't really looked for it. Most of these shooters are cowards that tend to choose gun free zones, if we can eliminate that aspect, I would assume this would make such a heinous crime even more rare.


Utah allows concealed carry for teachers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States - There have been no shootings in Utah schools. Do you know if there are any other states? If not, perhaps this should be tried in a few other states as well?

I don't think anyone with a conceal & carry permit would ever pull a gun to stop a fight between two other individuals (especially minors!) unless they were feeling that their own life was in danger. I assume you have not taken the CCW course, this is very much ingrained into it. If the teacher did pull it in this situation, they would be overreacting and should be fired immediately.
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