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There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

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There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby premio53 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:40 am

Is this the greatest fraud ever thrusted upon mankind? What evidence exists to believe with reasonable certainty that he was the author of that work?
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:58 am

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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:10 am

Homer was his/her/their/its pen-name.

Controversy solved.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby chang50 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:17 am

premio53 wrote:Is this the greatest fraud ever thrusted upon mankind? What evidence exists to believe with reasonable certainty that he was the author of that work?


Well it was written a long time ago,probably about events even longer ago,so yes there is some doubt.Socrates never wrote down any of his philosophy,all we know of his ideas comes from others,mainly Plato,did Socrates even exist?Is this topic leading up to some other point you want to make?
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby Timminz on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:21 am

chang50 wrote:Is this topic leading up to some other point you want to make?


Isn't it clear? He's trying to prove that the Bible is only the second biggest hoax ever perpetuated, because "Homer's" works of fiction may have been written by someone not named Homer.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby chang50 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:25 am

Timminz wrote:
chang50 wrote:Is this topic leading up to some other point you want to make?


Isn't it clear? He's trying to prove that the Bible is only the second biggest hoax ever perpetuated, because "Homer's" works of fiction may have been written by someone not named Homer.


Shucks,should have seen that one coming :roll:
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:34 am

Well, my theory is that he was expecting us to be all up in arms and adamant that Homer did write the Iliad and then he would deliver the devastating final blow "see I'm just as rational as you guys in believing god wrote the bible".

This would also fit with his notion that atheism and scientific literacy is some kind of "religion" which presumably implies we should view Socrates and Homer as some kind of prophets and therefore we should be willing to fight to the death over their existence/nonexistence.

The more general point the fundies seem to miss is that the person doesn't matter, only the idea matters. I really don't give a shit if, for instance, Darwin converted on his death bed and said evolution is all a lie. It really doesn't matter at all. But that point would be hard to grasp for someone who thinks all knowledge is some kind of revealed truth.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:42 am

Just so you guys know, I no longer believe in the Illiad.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby chang50 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:45 am

Haggis_McMutton wrote:Well, my theory is that he was expecting us to be all up in arms and adamant that Homer did write the Iliad and then he would deliver the devastating final blow "see I'm just as rational as you guys in believing god wrote the bible".

This would also fit with his notion that atheism and scientific literacy is some kind of "religion" which presumably implies we should view Socrates and Homer as some kind of prophets and therefore we should be willing to fight to the death over their existence/nonexistence.

The more general point the fundies seem to miss is that the person doesn't matter, only the idea matters. I really don't give a shit if, for instance, Darwin converted on his death bed and said evolution is all a lie. It really doesn't matter at all. But that point would be hard to grasp for someone who thinks all knowledge is some kind of revealed truth.


Personally I'm a tad insulted,if your theory is correct and I have no reason to doubt it,that premio so underestimates the community of posters on cc.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:51 am

chang50 wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:Well, my theory is that he was expecting us to be all up in arms and adamant that Homer did write the Iliad and then he would deliver the devastating final blow "see I'm just as rational as you guys in believing god wrote the bible".

This would also fit with his notion that atheism and scientific literacy is some kind of "religion" which presumably implies we should view Socrates and Homer as some kind of prophets and therefore we should be willing to fight to the death over their existence/nonexistence.

The more general point the fundies seem to miss is that the person doesn't matter, only the idea matters. I really don't give a shit if, for instance, Darwin converted on his death bed and said evolution is all a lie. It really doesn't matter at all. But that point would be hard to grasp for someone who thinks all knowledge is some kind of revealed truth.


Personally I'm a tad insulted,if your theory is correct and I have no reason to doubt it,that premio so underestimates the community of posters on cc.


He seems new to off topics. I think we've adequately let him know that some forumgoers are not gullible idiots. I remain shocked he did not reply to the clear evidence included in the Youtube video above.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby premio53 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:42 am

I must admit you guys are brilliant. Yes I was making a point. Ancient books are available today because someone took the time to write them down. The original writings of Julius Caesar are no longer around but we know he wrote only by 10 copies made 1,000 years after he died. There are only 600 copies of Homer's Illiad that exist which are 1,300 years after the originals were written. There are 24,000 copies of the New Testament manuscripts, some written within 35 years of the writer's death.

If just 10 people today were born around the same time, spoke the same language, and made the same amount of money, and were asked to write on just one controversial subject, they would have trouble agreeing with each other. But the Bible was written over a period of 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen, politicians, kings, shepherds, historians etc. They were from three different continents and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects with agreement and harmony. The Bible is unique.

The greatest physical proof of Bible inspiration is the Jew. For 2500 years they had no nation to call their own. The have been scattered around the earth and persecuted in practically every nation to which they were scattered and yet have maintained their racial identity and culture. The prophecies concerning the restoration of the Jews to their land go back to the prophet Ezekiel and others and found literal fulfillment on May 14, 1948.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oairG6bbQ5U
Last edited by premio53 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:45 am

Haggis_McMutton wrote:Well, my theory is that he was expecting us to be all up in arms and adamant that Homer did write the Iliad and then he would deliver the devastating final blow "see I'm just as rational as you guys in believing god wrote the bible".

This would also fit with his notion that atheism and scientific literacy is some kind of "religion" which presumably implies we should view Socrates and Homer as some kind of prophets and therefore we should be willing to fight to the death over their existence/nonexistence.

The more general point the fundies seem to miss is that the person doesn't matter, only the idea matters. I really don't give a shit if, for instance, Darwin converted on his death bed and said evolution is all a lie. It really doesn't matter at all. But that point would be hard to grasp for someone who thinks all knowledge is some kind of revealed truth.


Good call.

Premio, you can stop posting any time now.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby comic boy on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:46 am

Dont be too hard on the OP , having shown himself to be a gullible idiot of the first magnitude it is hardly surprising that he regards it as normality.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby AAFitz on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:02 am

premio53 wrote:I must admit you guys are brilliant. Yes I was making a point. Ancient books are available today because someone took the time to write them down. The original writings of Julius Caesar are no longer around but we know he wrote only by 10 copies made 1,000 years after he died. There are only 600 copies of Homer's Illiad that exist which are 1,300 years after the originals were written. There are 24,000 copies of the New Testament manuscripts, some written within 35 years of the writer's death.

If just 10 people today were born around the same time, spoke the same language, and made the same amount of money, and were asked to write on just one controversial subject, they would have trouble agreeing with each other. But the Bible was written over a period of 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen, politicians, kings, shepherds, historians etc. They were from three different continents and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects with agreement and harmony. The Bible is unique.

The greatest physical proof of Bible inspiration is the Jew. For 2500 years they had no nation to call their own. The have been scattered around the earth and persecuted in practically every nation to which they were scattered and yet have maintained their racial identity and culture. The prophecies concerning the restoration of the Jews to their land go back to the prophet Ezekiel and others and found literal fulfillment on May 14, 1948.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oairG6bbQ5U


I do not think those words mean what you think they mean.

In any case, you already made the same point in your other posts: You make incorrect assumptions based on incomplete information. No more examples are necessary. We believe you.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby Army of GOD on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:04 pm

>my sides
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:18 pm

premio53 wrote:
If just 10 people today were born around the same time, spoke the same language, and made the same amount of money, and were asked to write on just one controversial subject, they would have trouble agreeing with each other. But the Bible was written over a period of 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen, politicians, kings, shepherds, historians etc. They were from three different continents and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects with agreement and harmony. The Bible is unique.


How many unique versions of the Bible are there?
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby aage on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:22 pm

premio53 wrote:Is this the greatest fraud ever thrusted upon mankind? What evidence exists to believe with reasonable certainty that he was the author of that work?

Maybe. Truth is, it doesn't matter. Many people claim that Shakespeare didn't exist and "his work" is simply a stack of poems and plays put together by anon. writers. What matters is that the texts exist. Whether or not the claimed author wrote them is irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorial_ ... _Criticism


/thread


(link changed, Britannica kinda sucks really)
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby aage on Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:29 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
premio53 wrote:
If just 10 people today were born around the same time, spoke the same language, and made the same amount of money, and were asked to write on just one controversial subject, they would have trouble agreeing with each other. But the Bible was written over a period of 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen, politicians, kings, shepherds, historians etc. They were from three different continents and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects with agreement and harmony. The Bible is unique.


How many unique versions of the Bible are there?

The Bible is only a compilation of all religious Christian texts ever written. Therefore, technically, it is still being written, and there can be no unique 'definitive' version.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:27 pm

"agreement and harmony" = not true.

Also, Netanyahu got re-elected. That means all bets are off, we must send in the marines.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby Frigidus on Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:15 pm

Pointing out the mountain of evidence against the Bible being completely true and the direct word of God is easy enough (and has already been done pretty well in one of the other creationism threads). I'll just point out that your attempt to draw parallels between faith in the Bible and "faith" in science is hopelessly flawed. The Bible is a set work. If you want to hold it up as being completely true and divinely inspired/written you must defend every aspect of it, no matter how ridiculous (see the great flood, the description of the world/universe in Genesis, the entirety of Leviticus, etc.). Science on the other hand is not trying to prove that the truth is found within certain boundaries, but rather is trying move the boundaries to match the truth. If a scientist were somehow able to find an alternative to evolution that better explains the diversity of life and somehow sweeps away the multitude of evidence supporting evolution, they would undoubtedly win the Nobel Prize.

I'm sure that you would argue that these alternative explanations have been offered, but ultimately they have been found lacking by the collective scientific community. There are really only two ways you can look at that; one possibility is that the theories that you support are lacking in evidence. Alternatively, there is a colossal, worldwide conspiracy that has set out to hide the truth of God from the world. This conspiracy would include people from all walks of life and every major religion of the world. Their goals are unclear and their motivations are dubious. You are a member of the brave opposition, whose strongest arguments rest on metaphors, selective quoting, purposeful misunderstanding of scientific principles (the Second Law of Thermodynamics being a favorite), and false stories of deathbed conversions. Which of these sound more likely to you?
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby Viceroy63 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:32 pm

premio53 wrote:I must admit you guys are brilliant. Yes I was making a point. Ancient books are available today because someone took the time to write them down. The original writings of Julius Caesar are no longer around but we know he wrote only by 10 copies made 1,000 years after he died. There are only 600 copies of Homer's Illiad that exist which are 1,300 years after the originals were written. There are 24,000 copies of the New Testament manuscripts, some written within 35 years of the writer's death.

If just 10 people today were born around the same time, spoke the same language, and made the same amount of money, and were asked to write on just one controversial subject, they would have trouble agreeing with each other. But the Bible was written over a period of 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen, politicians, kings, shepherds, historians etc. They were from three different continents and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects with agreement and harmony. The Bible is unique.

The greatest physical proof of Bible inspiration is the Jew. For 2500 years they had no nation to call their own. The have been scattered around the earth and persecuted in practically every nation to which they were scattered and yet have maintained their racial identity and culture. The prophecies concerning the restoration of the Jews to their land go back to the prophet Ezekiel and others and found literal fulfillment on May 14, 1948.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oairG6bbQ5U




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oairG6bbQ5U

Yes indeed. What would be the odds that a book that began to be written 3,000 years ago would survive unchanged and unaltered to this day. It reminds me of that game where a secret message is whispered in the ear and that message goes about the group and the end message is completely different than the original message. There had to be a supernatural Guidance in that.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby notyou2 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:31 pm

Viceroy63 wrote:
premio53 wrote:I must admit you guys are brilliant. Yes I was making a point. Ancient books are available today because someone took the time to write them down. The original writings of Julius Caesar are no longer around but we know he wrote only by 10 copies made 1,000 years after he died. There are only 600 copies of Homer's Illiad that exist which are 1,300 years after the originals were written. There are 24,000 copies of the New Testament manuscripts, some written within 35 years of the writer's death.

If just 10 people today were born around the same time, spoke the same language, and made the same amount of money, and were asked to write on just one controversial subject, they would have trouble agreeing with each other. But the Bible was written over a period of 1,600 years by more than 40 writers from all walks of life. Some were fishermen, politicians, kings, shepherds, historians etc. They were from three different continents and wrote in three different languages. They wrote on hundreds of controversial subjects with agreement and harmony. The Bible is unique.

The greatest physical proof of Bible inspiration is the Jew. For 2500 years they had no nation to call their own. The have been scattered around the earth and persecuted in practically every nation to which they were scattered and yet have maintained their racial identity and culture. The prophecies concerning the restoration of the Jews to their land go back to the prophet Ezekiel and others and found literal fulfillment on May 14, 1948.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oairG6bbQ5U




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oairG6bbQ5U

Yes indeed. What would be the odds that a book that began to be written 3,000 years ago would survive unchanged and unaltered to this day. It reminds me of that game where a secret message is whispered in the ear and that message goes about the group and the end message is completely different than the original message. There had to be a supernatural Guidance in that.


The bible has been changed numerous times. There have been religious committees that altered it. Not to mention that when it was written long after Christ's' death, most likely the stories had changed a great deal.

If Christ were alive today, he would call you all blasphemers. He would call you sinners for taking the bible out of context and making it something it was never meant to be.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:32 pm

Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I’m not sure we’ll ever be able to answer that. It’s one of the great mysteries.

—US Senator Marco Rubio (R-FL), in a GQ interview (December 2012)

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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby Crazyirishman on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:49 pm

Isn't there also proof/specualtion that the Dao De Jing wasn't exclusively written by Lao Tzu? What a westernist thread.
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Re: There is no proof Homer wrote the Illiad

Postby nietzsche on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:08 pm

premio53 wrote:Is this the greatest fraud ever thrusted upon mankind? What evidence exists to believe with reasonable certainty that he was the author of that work?



No respectable scholar thinks 1 person (Homer) wrote the Illiad and/or the Odysssey. You can read this in any good introduction to the works.
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