Rule Enforcement Discussion

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Would you be interested in a Rule system like the one discussed in this thread?

Poll ended at Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:44 am

Yes
4
57%
No
3
43%
 
Total votes : 7

Rule Enforcement Discussion

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:47 am

Note from kentington:
I would like input from the community and if you could add any of your reasoning, that is welcome. Do not let this become a place to troll or flame each other. Try to keep it together for at least this thread.







MOST IMPORTANT POSTS ITT,
the rest can suck it.

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
notyou2 wrote:The problem is that the rules and bans are very subjective. Many others break the same rules and are not punished, but others appear to be picked on. Exasperating the situation is the policy of silence.

Double posting? Come on.

Necro posting? wow. Why?

These are very minor infractions.

The powers that be, be they one or two individuals, are a board of several administration people, have apparently decided to say nothing of the alleged infractions, so no one learns the application of the rules. Imagine from the players eyes, a player disappears for no apparent reason, and then returns after a certain amount of time. Translate that to real life. For example, all the village knows the police have detained someone but no one knows why or for how long. Then one day they reappear.

The admin needs to institute an announcement policy on these infractions. Much like the police give statements on arrests and cases. The courts announce sentences, etc.


+1

Also, the existence of these infractions seems to be part of the old tactic of making trivial common things "illegal" but very rarely prosecuting them so that no one gives a shit cause it seems like it doesn't matter. Of course it does matter cause the powers that be now have an excuse to selectively prosecute whomever they don't like for these minor offences that virtually everyone is guilty of.

Mods, why not tell us what the ban was for ? Please explain the reasoning. If scotty requested you not to tell us then say that.
Honestly this is the second worrisome sign regarding the new moderation for me (first was the ham-fisted handling of the joke rape threads situation).
Rds, you seem like a decent guy. Please, for Hank's sake, don't go the Twilldo route of moderation.


[/MOST IMPORTANT POSTS ITT]


What's the point of having rules when the reasons for enforcement remain ambiguous? How does that effectively serve the goals of CC's enforcement policy?
(hint: it doesn't).

If you want CC'ers to not do X, then punishments for X, Y, or Z should be publicly announced; otherwise, we have no idea which rules are actually being enforced--nor would we know how many times a somewhat unenforced rule is now being enforced. That information matters, but it's unfortunately being withheld.

(Furthermore, responding with "all the rules are enforced! lololol!" is total BS because they simply aren't for several reasons which have been previously mentioned for the past 3 three years).
Last edited by kentington on Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Added Poll.
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:56 am

kentington wrote:
notyou2 wrote:I am not a fan of the system, no matter who is banned. I will say the forum has not been inundated with a multitude of stupid threads.


Out of curiosity, what would you have done for breakers of the rules?


Great question. Here's a few answers which are reasonable and have worked in the past:

(1) Ignore them.
(2) Ignore the complaints of the extremely small yet highly sensitive and inflammatory group.
(3) Let the community handle it.


Obviously, this need not apply to all cases, but all infractions do not need to be enforced--nor should all infractions be silently piled onto one's 'case file', which is later used to ban that CC'er whenever some arbitrarily determined tipping point is passed. (Recall how user A is warned for infraction X, but later banned for infraction Y, which is irritating because the user isn't informed (warned) about committing infraction Y. Rule enforcement seems to be random here, which is the worst way to enforce rules).

The mods aren't necessary for most bans. We should institute People's Courts. That would be fun!--but at the very least, it would allow us to experiment with new avenues of rule enforcement which are more just, thus satisfying to the community. After the People's Court decides, the mod obediently fulfills the Court Orders.
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby Gillipig on Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:10 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
kentington wrote:
notyou2 wrote:I am not a fan of the system, no matter who is banned. I will say the forum has not been inundated with a multitude of stupid threads.


Out of curiosity, what would you have done for breakers of the rules?


Great question. Here's a few answers which are reasonable and have worked in the past:

(1) Ignore them.
(2) Ignore the complaints of the extremely small yet highly sensitive and inflammatory group.
(3) Anarchy! Woot woot!!!


Obviously, this need not apply to all cases, but all infractions do not need to be enforced--nor should all infractions be silently piled onto one's 'case file', which is later used to ban that CC'er whenever some arbitrarily determined tipping point is passed. (Recall how user A is warned for infraction X, but later banned for infraction Y, which is irritating because the user isn't informed (warned) about committing infraction Y. Rule enforcement seems to be random here, which is the worst way to enforce rules).

The mods aren't necessary for most bans. We should institute People's Courts. That would be fun!--but at the very least, it would allow us to experiment with new avenues of rule enforcement which are more just, thus satisfying to the community. After the People's Court decides, the mod obediently fulfills the Court Orders.

Fixed one of your alternatives.
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:46 am

Gillipig wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
kentington wrote:
notyou2 wrote:I am not a fan of the system, no matter who is banned. I will say the forum has not been inundated with a multitude of stupid threads.


Out of curiosity, what would you have done for breakers of the rules?


Great question. Here's a few answers which are reasonable and have worked in the past:

(1) Ignore them.
(2) Ignore the complaints of the extremely small yet highly sensitive and inflammatory group.
(3) Anarchy! Woot woot!!!


Obviously, this need not apply to all cases, but all infractions do not need to be enforced--nor should all infractions be silently piled onto one's 'case file', which is later used to ban that CC'er whenever some arbitrarily determined tipping point is passed. (Recall how user A is warned for infraction X, but later banned for infraction Y, which is irritating because the user isn't informed (warned) about committing infraction Y. Rule enforcement seems to be random here, which is the worst way to enforce rules).

The mods aren't necessary for most bans. We should institute People's Courts. That would be fun!--but at the very least, it would allow us to experiment with new avenues of rule enforcement which are more just, thus satisfying to the community. After the People's Court decides, the mod obediently fulfills the Court Orders.

Fixed one of your alternatives.


How is local governance considered anarchy?

What do you think anarchy entails?
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby Gillipig on Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:54 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
kentington wrote:
notyou2 wrote:I am not a fan of the system, no matter who is banned. I will say the forum has not been inundated with a multitude of stupid threads.


Out of curiosity, what would you have done for breakers of the rules?


Great question. Here's a few answers which are reasonable and have worked in the past:

(1) Ignore them.
(2) Ignore the complaints of the extremely small yet highly sensitive and inflammatory group.
(3) Anarchy! Woot woot!!!


Obviously, this need not apply to all cases, but all infractions do not need to be enforced--nor should all infractions be silently piled onto one's 'case file', which is later used to ban that CC'er whenever some arbitrarily determined tipping point is passed. (Recall how user A is warned for infraction X, but later banned for infraction Y, which is irritating because the user isn't informed (warned) about committing infraction Y. Rule enforcement seems to be random here, which is the worst way to enforce rules).

The mods aren't necessary for most bans. We should institute People's Courts. That would be fun!--but at the very least, it would allow us to experiment with new avenues of rule enforcement which are more just, thus satisfying to the community. After the People's Court decides, the mod obediently fulfills the Court Orders.

Fixed one of your alternatives.


How is local governance considered anarchy?

What do you think anarchy entails?
The good shit!


In phatscotty's absence:



Image
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I promise he will put George W. Bush to shame!
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:10 am

Gillipig wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
kentington wrote:
notyou2 wrote:I am not a fan of the system, no matter who is banned. I will say the forum has not been inundated with a multitude of stupid threads.


Out of curiosity, what would you have done for breakers of the rules?


Great question. Here's a few answers which are reasonable and have worked in the past:

(1) Ignore them.
(2) Ignore the complaints of the extremely small yet highly sensitive and inflammatory group.
(3) Anarchy! Woot woot!!!


Obviously, this need not apply to all cases, but all infractions do not need to be enforced--nor should all infractions be silently piled onto one's 'case file', which is later used to ban that CC'er whenever some arbitrarily determined tipping point is passed. (Recall how user A is warned for infraction X, but later banned for infraction Y, which is irritating because the user isn't informed (warned) about committing infraction Y. Rule enforcement seems to be random here, which is the worst way to enforce rules).

The mods aren't necessary for most bans. We should institute People's Courts. That would be fun!--but at the very least, it would allow us to experiment with new avenues of rule enforcement which are more just, thus satisfying to the community. After the People's Court decides, the mod obediently fulfills the Court Orders.

Fixed one of your alternatives.


How is local governance considered anarchy?

What do you think anarchy entails?
The good shit!


In phatscotty's absence:



Image


<pats Gillipig on the head>

Run along, Gilli. Go have fun with the kids!

:D
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby Gillipig on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:14 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Gillipig wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
kentington wrote:Out of curiosity, what would you have done for breakers of the rules?


Great question. Here's a few answers which are reasonable and have worked in the past:

(1) Ignore them.
(2) Ignore the complaints of the extremely small yet highly sensitive and inflammatory group.
(3) Anarchy! Woot woot!!!


Obviously, this need not apply to all cases, but all infractions do not need to be enforced--nor should all infractions be silently piled onto one's 'case file', which is later used to ban that CC'er whenever some arbitrarily determined tipping point is passed. (Recall how user A is warned for infraction X, but later banned for infraction Y, which is irritating because the user isn't informed (warned) about committing infraction Y. Rule enforcement seems to be random here, which is the worst way to enforce rules).

The mods aren't necessary for most bans. We should institute People's Courts. That would be fun!--but at the very least, it would allow us to experiment with new avenues of rule enforcement which are more just, thus satisfying to the community. After the People's Court decides, the mod obediently fulfills the Court Orders.

Fixed one of your alternatives.


How is local governance considered anarchy?

What do you think anarchy entails?
The good shit!


In phatscotty's absence:



Image


<pats Gillipig on the head>

Run along, Gilli. Go have fun with the kids!

:D

Wow, never thought you'd trust me with your kids. You must really have grown fond of me :)
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby kentington on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:46 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
kentington wrote:
notyou2 wrote:I am not a fan of the system, no matter who is banned. I will say the forum has not been inundated with a multitude of stupid threads.


Out of curiosity, what would you have done for breakers of the rules?


Great question. Here's a few answers which are reasonable and have worked in the past:

(1) Ignore them.
(2) Ignore the complaints of the extremely small yet highly sensitive and inflammatory group.
(3) Let the community handle it.


Obviously, this need not apply to all cases, but all infractions do not need to be enforced--nor should all infractions be silently piled onto one's 'case file', which is later used to ban that CC'er whenever some arbitrarily determined tipping point is passed. (Recall how user A is warned for infraction X, but later banned for infraction Y, which is irritating because the user isn't informed (warned) about committing infraction Y. Rule enforcement seems to be random here, which is the worst way to enforce rules).

The mods aren't necessary for most bans. We should institute People's Courts. That would be fun!--but at the very least, it would allow us to experiment with new avenues of rule enforcement which are more just, thus satisfying to the community. After the People's Court decides, the mod obediently fulfills the Court Orders.


I understand where you are coming from with this and I can agree with it somewhat.
Here are the things that I see as issues that would need to be dealt with by mods, without the people:
Spam - taking up a whole page with new posts from yourself, especially not adding anything, should get a warning -public- and continued behavior should result in an escalating ban.
Porn - no first time warning. I think members know this is unacceptable and I would make sure it was added to the user guidelines. -public notice and immediate ban-
Marketing - it is the sites prerogative to enforce this and does not require consistency or the people, do so at your own risk. -possible immediate ban, made public-
Blatant Flaming - with a public specific definition -public warning, second time public ban-
(There are some people who may not get defense from the "people" and this should be enforced. If you can't communicate on here without resorting to "you stupid idiot, f u and your mom, where were u born the smrt farm?" Then it should be in the hands of the mod.


These are just off the top of my head. This is not what are in the guidelines, do not think you can use this post as any change in rules. This was a post to get some ideas across. While I would love to get something solid together and propose it, there is no guarantee that it will work.
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:21 am

kentington wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
kentington wrote:
notyou2 wrote:I am not a fan of the system, no matter who is banned. I will say the forum has not been inundated with a multitude of stupid threads.


Out of curiosity, what would you have done for breakers of the rules?


Great question. Here's a few answers which are reasonable and have worked in the past:

(1) Ignore them.
(2) Ignore the complaints of the extremely small yet highly sensitive and inflammatory group.
(3) Let the community handle it.


Obviously, this need not apply to all cases, but all infractions do not need to be enforced--nor should all infractions be silently piled onto one's 'case file', which is later used to ban that CC'er whenever some arbitrarily determined tipping point is passed. (Recall how user A is warned for infraction X, but later banned for infraction Y, which is irritating because the user isn't informed (warned) about committing infraction Y. Rule enforcement seems to be random here, which is the worst way to enforce rules).

The mods aren't necessary for most bans. We should institute People's Courts. That would be fun!--but at the very least, it would allow us to experiment with new avenues of rule enforcement which are more just, thus satisfying to the community. After the People's Court decides, the mod obediently fulfills the Court Orders.


I understand where you are coming from with this and I can agree with it somewhat.
Here are the things that I see as issues that would need to be dealt with by mods, without the people:
Spam - taking up a whole page with new posts from yourself, especially not adding anything, should get a warning -public- and continued behavior should result in an escalating ban.
Porn - no first time warning. I think members know this is unacceptable and I would make sure it was added to the user guidelines. -public notice and immediate ban-
Marketing - it is the sites prerogative to enforce this and does not require consistency or the people, do so at your own risk. -possible immediate ban, made public-
Blatant Flaming - with a public specific definition -public warning, second time public ban-
(There are some people who may not get defense from the "people" and this should be enforced. If you can't communicate on here without resorting to "you stupid idiot, f u and your mom, where were u born the smrt farm?" Then it should be in the hands of the mod.


These are just off the top of my head. This is not what are in the guidelines, do not think you can use this post as any change in rules. This was a post to get some ideas across. While I would love to get something solid together and propose it, there is no guarantee that it will work.


I'd resort to tug-o-war on the Blatant Flaming, but the others seem fine. The People's Court idea is a tangent; my primary concerns are the following:

(1) Adverse rewards to the highly sensitive complainers in the form of bans against their 'worst enemies'.
---i.e. People who continually throw a fit about minor attacks and perceived sleights seem to be rewarded with their cries for a ban against whoever they dislike. It's a crap system which should be stopped, and stopping this requires removing the mods' monopoly on the decision rights for such bans. In other words, the highly sensitive would have to take their case to their general public instead of a few, very partial mods.


(2) Random Rule Enforcement
---i.e. User A is warned for infraction X, but later banned for infraction Y, which is irritating because the user isn't informed (warned) about committing infraction Y. A first warning is typically used to cover the current infraction (baiting) as well as later infractions of different kinds (necrobump, spam), thus failing to clarify exactly what the boundaries are for infraction Y--since no warning was given for Y.


(3) Opaque Rule Enforcement
---- Obviously, the rules are clearly written yet remain ambiguous because circumstances can vary. Because of this ambiguity, the community requires feedback from the enforcers in the form of publicly announcing why user A was banned. Upon receiving this information, the users can make more discretionary posts, thus becoming more law-abiding users. Without public announcements, then the users have a less certain idea as to where the mods 'draw the line in the sand' in regard to the more ambiguous rules and their gray areas.

(For more details, especially about opaque rule enforcement, see Haggis' and notyou2's posts here.

If the goal of the mods is to create a more just system as well as more law-abiding community, then they should enact the above three policies.
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby kentington on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:29 pm

Ok, so the tug-o-war begins. Glad we can agree on the face value of the others. They are a lot less subjective and less prone to emotion.


BigBallinStalin wrote:I'd resort to tug-o-war on the Blatant Flaming, but the others seem fine. The People's Court idea is a tangent; my primary concerns are the following:

(1) Adverse rewards to the highly sensitive complainers in the form of bans against their 'worst enemies'.
---i.e. People who continually throw a fit about minor attacks and perceived sleights seem to be rewarded with their cries for a ban against whoever they dislike. It's a crap system which should be stopped, and stopping this requires removing the mods' monopoly on the decision rights for such bans. In other words, the highly sensitive would have to take their case to their general public instead of a few, very partial mods.


Starting with number 1. At first glance this seems like a great idea. The community is the customer and to some extent should have a say in the way the community feels/is run. So, to narrow this down there are two issues that readily show up. If you have an idea with how to deal with them or you agree with my solution for part of it then great.

Situation 1. Not everyone is a premium member, therefore not everyone is a customer to CC. Should they be allowed to vote as well?
My thought is no, but then this seems like a good way to piss people off.

Situation 2. CC value. We each have a value in CC and this includes quality/quantity of posts ratio.
Premium Member A- S10,000 (10k Saxi Bucks) A skinny guy with a mustache and a dinosaur outfit.
Premium Member B- S100 (100 Saxi Bucks) A very cute, sugary, sword toting guy.

Premium Member A flames PMB : "Ha, suck it you didn't even make it on the popularity contest. Step up your game loser. ::Big L:: I would kill myself if I was you." (I don't really want to make it worse.)
PMB takes his case to the people. Well, the people have valued PMA at S10k and PMB at S100, do we really want to lose that guy with a creepy smile over this?

So, now the judges have switched places, but the community has decided that certain members with a lot of credit can get away with more than those who don't have as much value. An argument for that is : You are paying customers so what is the problem? Well, we also have to protect our little guys who aren't as cool or good looking. Do mods ever step in and how would that work? We would still be somewhat subjective. (It is a subjective situation. Not bias, but certain words and phrases bother certain people differently.)




BigBallinStalin wrote:(2) Random Rule Enforcement
---i.e. User A is warned for infraction X, but later banned for infraction Y, which is irritating because the user isn't informed (warned) about committing infraction Y. A first warning is typically used to cover the current infraction (baiting) as well as later infractions of different kinds (necrobump, spam), thus failing to clarify exactly what the boundaries are for infraction Y--since no warning was given for Y.


Agreed.
At the very least. Let us say they have gotten a warning in every subject and they have become a troll, then we can :
a) Bring it to the people
b) Give a final warning and let the member know that the next infraction for x,y, or z will result in a ban

BigBallinStalin wrote:(3) Opaque Rule Enforcement
---- Obviously, the rules are clearly written yet remain ambiguous because circumstances can vary. Because of this ambiguity, the community requires feedback from the enforcers in the form of publicly announcing why user A was banned. Upon receiving this information, the users can make more discretionary posts, thus becoming more law-abiding users. Without public announcements, then the users have a less certain idea as to where the mods 'draw the line in the sand' in regard to the more ambiguous rules and their gray areas.


I agree. The offenses were public and the sentence should be as well.
What about stuff that goes on in a pm? Do you agree that it should be handled by a Mod and if a ban is warranted, then the mods make the call and just make public that the ban was for pm's and the type of infraction without details?

BigBallinStalin wrote:(For more details, especially about opaque rule enforcement, see Haggis' and notyou2's posts here.


I agree with what they have said.

BigBallinStalin wrote:If the goal of the mods is to create a more just system as well as more law-abiding community, then they should enact the above three policies.


This is the ultimate goal for me. I didn't become a mod for premium. Look at my games. I didn't become a mod so people would love me, that obviously wouldn't work. I didn't become a mod for the power, as when I first joined powers were very limited and I had to watch a lot of stuff and ask permission before doing things. (Which makes sense, to prevent rogue mods(that white hair stripe isn't cool anymore))
I just want the community to flow and as I said in the other thread I am a background poster. I prefer to just do stuff and maybe have a few people notice, but not a lot of people. That is how I am in real life. I work with machines and fix them and I don't want to deal with all of the people just a few.

Long post I know and TMI, but I think it was all pretty much on topic and if we actually agree on things I will present it to the people who make the ultimate calls on this site.
Bruceswar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:49 pm

tl;dr Free PHATTIE!
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:55 pm

kentington wrote: I didn't become a mod for premium.


Ooohhh... burn on BBS!
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby kentington on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:56 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:tl;dr Free PHATTIE!



Docked S100 Saxi bucks of status. Read Doom Yoshi, Read!
Bruceswar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:04 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
kentington wrote: I didn't become a mod for premium.


Ooohhh... burn on BBS!


They may fan the flames of false rumors, but I strive to avoid the fancy flights of frolicking gossipers.

May their fantastic flubber-fueled flambeaux fizzle out.
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Re: FREEEE Phatscotty!!

Postby kentington on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:10 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
kentington wrote: I didn't become a mod for premium.


Ooohhh... burn on BBS!


Unintentional. However, his NSW (Net Saxi Worth) has not dropped.
Bruceswar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
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