Voluntary Exchange

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Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?

1.-voluntary
18
17%
1.-involuntary
3
3%
2.-voluntary
3
3%
2.-involuntary
18
17%
3.-voluntary
4
4%
3.-involuntary
18
17%
4.-voluntary
4
4%
4.-involuntary
17
16%
5.-voluntary
4
4%
5.-involuntary
17
16%
 
Total votes : 106

Voluntary Exchange

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:37 pm

1. A Story of Two Gentlemen
Bubba and Hotep wish to exchange goods with each other. Bubba brings some beer, and Hotep brings a book titled “Social Commentaries of the Unhelpful Kind.” Bubba offers a price of 10 beers, and since Hotep values the 10 beers more than his perceived benefits of the book, he agrees to the exchange.

This is an example of voluntary exchange—on the individual basis. However, some of us implicitly think that the word “voluntary” acquires the same meaning when mixed in the company of words like “government,” “common good,” and “national interest.”


2. Bandits
Suppose a group of bandits—like the Mafia—come into your town, wave their guns around, and offer their security services in exchange for $100 per month. Since it is ‘an offer you can’t refuse’, you accept the exchange. Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?


3. The King
Suppose you reside in a highly esteemed city of King Shekel’s humble empire. The municipal government provides and/or funds basic services like justice, policing, ‘national’ defense, etc. Regardless of how much of these services you use--if at all, you are levied $100 per month. Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?


4. The Liberal Democracy
Suppose you live in a particular boundary over which a democratic government was formed some time before you were born (e.g. the US, GER, JPN, S Korea, France, etc.). Regardless of your voting habits and your proportional use of government-provided goods and services, you are taxed at a $100 per month. Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?


5. The Liberal Democracy
You live in a liberal democracy, but you are unwillingly drafted into the armed services. Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?


Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:43 pm

1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes, if you choose to continue to live there.
4." "
5.Yes, if you willingly lived there up until you were drafted.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Crazyirishman on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:53 pm

1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes

These scenarios seem similar to those that Socrates/Plato talks about in Crito.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:58 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes, if you choose to continue to live there.
4." "
5.Yes, if you willingly lived there up until you were drafted.


What if, in cases 3, 4, 5, you were not free to move elsewhere? There aren't many countries in the world that will just let someone move in, no questions asked. For instance, nietzsche couldn't just move to the U.S. without proving he knew how to harvest the fall cabbage crop or play eclectic, psychedelic guitar.

Also, the mere act of moving usually entails some significant expense. If your freedom to engage in an exchange is contingent on your ability to pay a direct - or, in this case, indirect - financial penalty then wouldn't it be involuntary?
patches70 wrote:The only real difference between Saxi and The Fed is that for one to get Saxbucks one must amuse or otherwise impress Saxi in some way, shape or form.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby _sabotage_ on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:06 pm

Yes.
No, extortion.
No, same as above, king pays 10% of taxes to local collector, who hires thugs at 3% to collect it, services are rendered through collector's cousin who hires the pretty girls in the village to boink, services rendered are negligible and no recourse is provided since the system is as it was set up to be.
No, same as above but now the negligible services have been taken away due to complaints of corruption about cousin so king solves the problem by taking out the corrupting step of offering services for the money.
No, Mohammad Ali lost some of his best years.
Last edited by _sabotage_ on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:18 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes, if you choose to continue to live there.
4." "
5.Yes, if you willingly lived there up until you were drafted.


What if, in cases 3, 4, 5, you were not free to move elsewhere? There aren't many countries in the world that will just let someone move in, no questions asked. For instance, nietzsche couldn't just move to the U.S. without proving he knew how to harvest the fall cabbage crop or play eclectic, psychedelic guitar.

Also, the mere act of moving usually entails some significant expense. If your freedom to engage in an exchange is contingent on your ability to pay a direct - or, in this case, indirect - financial penalty then wouldn't it be involuntary?

Hehe.
I thought it was implicit that it would be the reverse if you were not free to move but if it wasn't, well, there you have it. O:)
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:26 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes, if you choose to continue to live there.
4." "
5.Yes, if you willingly lived there up until you were drafted.


You're assuming a framework where the king or liberal democracy have unquestioned rights to your land or personhood, which is therefore not voluntary by definition. If, in cases of 4 and 5, they are truly democratic gov'ts, imposing taxes or conscription upon you is counter to a gov't of free individuals, i.e. their threat of force (which I assume is there should one not yield) makes the situation not voluntary and is, in fact, authoritarian.

-TG
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:32 pm

I call false dichotomy.

There seem to be various degrees of voluntariness based on the existence of alternate choices and the cost incurred in taking those choices.

It's, of course, very hard to come up with exact percentages, but here's how I'd rank these from most voluntary to least:

1, 3, 4, 5, 2
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:43 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:I call false dichotomy.

There seem to be various degrees of voluntariness based on the existence of alternate choices and the cost incurred in taking those choices.

It's, of course, very hard to come up with exact percentages, but here's how I'd rank these from most voluntary to least:

1, 3, 4, 5, 2


I SAY YOUR FALSE DICHOTOMY IS A FALSE DICHOTOMY!!!

"Voluntary" is an absolutism. Either something is a voluntary act or it is an involuntary act. If it's an involuntary act, it can have varying degrees of involuntariness (i.e. slavery, servitude, compromise, contract commitment, etc.). There cannot be varying degrees of volunteerism.

"Death" is an absolutism. Either something is dead or it is alive. If it's alive, it can have varying degrees of life (i.e. vitality, coma, etc.). There cannot be varying degrees of death.

For scenario 4 to be voluntary it requires we recognize some form of primogeniture - that legal rights can be expanded or restrained through process of inheritance and that they are transferred with the blood. If we recognize primogeniture then there is no consistent argument against monarchy, the hereditary nobility or god-beings.
patches70 wrote:The only real difference between Saxi and The Fed is that for one to get Saxbucks one must amuse or otherwise impress Saxi in some way, shape or form.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:53 pm

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes, if you choose to continue to live there.
4." "
5.Yes, if you willingly lived there up until you were drafted.


You're assuming a framework where the king or liberal democracy have unquestioned rights to your land or personhood, which is therefore not voluntary by definition. If, in cases of 4 and 5, they are truly democratic gov'ts, imposing taxes or conscription upon you is counter to a gov't of free individuals, i.e. their threat of force (which I assume is there should one not yield) makes the situation not voluntary and is, in fact, authoritarian.

-TG

Since the questions were not very explicit in the first place I did the best with the information I had. If the questions become more specific I may change my answers. How can you answer those questions as they are without assuming one thing or another? Besides, I consider a condition in which you are free to leave yet decide to remain as inherently voluntary.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby _sabotage_ on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:57 pm

You have shed yourself of responsibility Funky. Each act is a choice, but you saying that you have no choice in your acts. If there is no choice, such as a tree falls on your head, it by definition wasn't voluntary.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:01 pm

So, I will drop the bomb. Note: I don't actually care about the answer.

Question: How can any individual who lives in a physical world, and therefore subject to physical laws, be said to have a choice in anything? I mean this in two senses: the deterministic one and the fatalistic one. Being in a situation to make a choice is itself an involuntary exchange.

Or: if God knows everything that will happen, how can humans be said to have free choice?
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:10 pm

The questions aren't ambiguous. The definitions of each scenario are implied by their names. A king= absolute ruler, so choosing between submission, exile/imprisonment, or death is still a confrontation against one's will. A democracy is a gov't composed of the people of the area, with laws enacted by them. If they use majority rule to impose their will onto a minority, it's not much different than the absolute king and is involuntary.

Sure, some may be less extreme than others, as Haggis pointed out, but it's still an involuntary exchange enforced by some threat.

-TG
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:10 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:1.Yes
2.No
3.Yes, if you choose to continue to live there.
4." "
5.Yes, if you willingly lived there up until you were drafted.


You're assuming a framework where the king or liberal democracy have unquestioned rights to your land or personhood, which is therefore not voluntary by definition. If, in cases of 4 and 5, they are truly democratic gov'ts, imposing taxes or conscription upon you is counter to a gov't of free individuals, i.e. their threat of force (which I assume is there should one not yield) makes the situation not voluntary and is, in fact, authoritarian.

-TG

Since the questions were not very explicit in the first place I did the best with the information I had. If the questions become more specific I may change my answers. How can you answer those questions as they are without assuming one thing or another? Besides, I consider a condition in which you are free to leave yet decide to remain as inherently voluntary.


Then please list your assumptions which you imposed on the examples (nothing wrong with that). I'm wondering what assumptions you used in order to justify your choices.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:12 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:You have shed yourself of responsibility Funky. Each act is a choice, but you saying that you have no choice in your acts. If there is no choice, such as a tree falls on your head, it by definition wasn't voluntary.


The tree falling on your head doesn't comply with the scenarios presented; one is a happenstance occurrence between a person and non-sentient organism. I think BBS was interested in events between people and the results therefrom.

-TG
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