Voluntary Exchange

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Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?

1.-voluntary
18
17%
1.-involuntary
3
3%
2.-voluntary
3
3%
2.-involuntary
18
17%
3.-voluntary
4
4%
3.-involuntary
18
17%
4.-voluntary
4
4%
4.-involuntary
17
16%
5.-voluntary
4
4%
5.-involuntary
17
16%
 
Total votes : 106

Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby john9blue on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:44 pm

mods you can close this thread now, it's over
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:01 pm

john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?

I don't see how the terrible-ness of your options enters into it? Number 2 is involuntary because it's directly stated that it's an "offer you can't refuse". Otherwise, I might answer differently.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby john9blue on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:02 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?

I don't see how the terrible-ness of your options enters into it? Number 2 is involuntary because it's directly stated that it's an "offer you can't refuse". Otherwise, I might answer differently.


that's a figure of speech. you are free to refuse their offer, but you will presumably get driven out of town or killed as a result.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:27 pm

john9blue wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?

I don't see how the terrible-ness of your options enters into it? Number 2 is involuntary because it's directly stated that it's an "offer you can't refuse". Otherwise, I might answer differently.


that's a figure of speech. you are free to refuse their offer, but you will presumably get driven out of town or killed as a result.

Here's a scenario:
You have a personal hang-up that dictates that you will not walk on the sidewalk unless it is completely void of other people. One day you need to deliver a letter to the post office on the corner of your street but the sidewalk is busy all day and you aren't able to mail your important letter. Does this mean that the people on the sidewalk all day were making your staying in your apartment involuntary or were they just exercising their ability to walk the sidewalk? If every passerby put a nail in your door so that you physically couldn't get out, then it would be involuntary.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:17 pm

john9blue wrote:still pisses me off that you're treating "voluntary" and "involuntary" like they are binary.

suppose bubba from example 1 tells hotep "if you don't accept my trade then i'm gonna poke you in the belly" voluntary or involuntary?

what if he threatens to punch him in the arm? or in the face? what if he threatens to beat him up? or kill him?

when does it cross the imaginary line from voluntary to involuntary?


Is this directed at me?

If so, do you know what "duress" means?
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:20 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?

I don't see how the terrible-ness of your options enters into it? Number 2 is involuntary because it's directly stated that it's an "offer you can't refuse". Otherwise, I might answer differently.


that's a figure of speech. you are free to refuse their offer, but you will presumably get driven out of town or killed as a result.

Here's a scenario:
You have a personal hang-up that dictates that you will not walk on the sidewalk unless it is completely void of other people. One day you need to deliver a letter to the post office on the corner of your street but the sidewalk is busy all day and you aren't able to mail your important letter. Does this mean that the people on the sidewalk all day were making your staying in your apartment involuntary or were they just exercising their ability to walk the sidewalk? If every passerby put a nail in your door so that you physically couldn't get out, then it would be involuntary.


C'mon, FT. The scenario was clarified, so be considerate and answer the question.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby kentington on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:31 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:still pisses me off that you're treating "voluntary" and "involuntary" like they are binary.

suppose bubba from example 1 tells hotep "if you don't accept my trade then i'm gonna poke you in the belly" voluntary or involuntary?

what if he threatens to punch him in the arm? or in the face? what if he threatens to beat him up? or kill him?

when does it cross the imaginary line from voluntary to involuntary?


Is this directed at me?

If so, do you know what "duress" means?


It seems to have been directed at T-Bone. Judging by his examples.
Bruceswar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby kentington on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:33 pm

john9blue wrote:mods you can close this thread now, it's over


I don't decide when a topic has been discussed enough. They can argue the same point for 347 pages for all I care. As long as it is civil and not flaming, then I will allow it.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:35 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't think FT understands what "duress" means...

Ha! If you're under duress in those examples it's your own damn fault, that's my point. Self imposed/inflicted duress is not my problem. Btw, nice ninja edit punk but the damage has been done. *sniff*

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?

I don't see how the terrible-ness of your options enters into it? Number 2 is involuntary because it's directly stated that it's an "offer you can't refuse". Otherwise, I might answer differently.


that's a figure of speech. you are free to refuse their offer, but you will presumably get driven out of town or killed as a result.

Here's a scenario:
You have a personal hang-up that dictates that you will not walk on the sidewalk unless it is completely void of other people. One day you need to deliver a letter to the post office on the corner of your street but the sidewalk is busy all day and you aren't able to mail your important letter. Does this mean that the people on the sidewalk all day were making your staying in your apartment involuntary or were they just exercising their ability to walk the sidewalk? If every passerby put a nail in your door so that you physically couldn't get out, then it would be involuntary.


C'mon, FT. The scenario was clarified, so be considerate and answer the question.

I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:39 pm

kentington wrote:
john9blue wrote:mods you can close this thread now, it's over


I don't decide when a topic has been discussed enough. They can argue the same point for 347 pages for all I care. As long as it is civil and not flaming, then I will allow it.

Nya Nya Nya Nya Nyahhhhh Nya, john9blue.

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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby john9blue on Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:05 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:still pisses me off that you're treating "voluntary" and "involuntary" like they are binary.

suppose bubba from example 1 tells hotep "if you don't accept my trade then i'm gonna poke you in the belly" voluntary or involuntary?

what if he threatens to punch him in the arm? or in the face? what if he threatens to beat him up? or kill him?

when does it cross the imaginary line from voluntary to involuntary?


Is this directed at me?

If so, do you know what "duress" means?


yes and yes. do you consider actions done under duress to be involuntary? if so, at what point does the threat of physical contact become duress?
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby john9blue on Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:07 am

Funkyterrance wrote:I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.


why do past actions make any difference as to whether an action i take NOW is voluntary or not?
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:30 am

john9blue wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.


why do past actions make any difference as to whether an action i take NOW is voluntary or not?

I'm glad you finally asked. Because they are, in the examples in question, part of the same transaction which started when you first accepted the terms(to remain in establishment) and more importantly, accepted your past, present and future benefits of said transaction.
I don't see the argument that any of these things come out of the blue and slam into you. It's been implied from the get-go that you understand the conditions of all these exchanges so how could any but those where you are absolutely forced to do something be considered involuntary? I mean, when you get into a fistfight it's voluntary whether or not the other person started it or not right?

john9blue wrote:do you consider actions done under duress to be involuntary?


I know this wasn't directed at me but I was wondering about this as well. I can see your judgement being somewhat altered under duress but not necessarily involuntary. Not choosing the desired thing from a menu because you were in a hurry is a decision made under duress but it's still voluntary.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby aage on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:28 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.


why do past actions make any difference as to whether an action i take NOW is voluntary or not?

I'm glad you finally asked. Because they are, in the examples in question, part of the same transaction which started when you first accepted the terms(to remain in establishment) and more importantly, accepted your past, present and future benefits of said transaction.

So either the action is voluntary, or you're a hypocritical bastard and the world will hate you anyway?
Is there no right to change one's mind or reconsider an opinion?
Let's take the drafting example again. Apparently you've lived in a democracy that says at some point you can get drafted. What alternatives did you have? Assume all other countries in the world have a system where everyone is drafted without precursor or indication, they are simply drafted. Does this make your decision to live in said democracy voluntary? Yes, obviously, because of all options you picked this one.
The problem in this case, though, is that the making of that choice on itself is involuntary. It is likely that you would rather not choose any of the options, and live in a country that does not have a draft system. Does that make the choice of habitation involuntary? And does that make the drafting involuntary?
When replacing "drafting" with "paying tax", everyone would probably say "that's just how the world works", but it is still your choice to abide by the 'rules' of that world.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby sainthochi on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:51 am

Everything, it is a choice

Even If your choice is one thing, or death. You can choose death
If you fear death and so choose the other option, you cannot say 'not a choice because death'

We always choose
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