Voluntary Exchange

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Is this a voluntary or an involuntary exchange?

1.-voluntary
18
17%
1.-involuntary
3
3%
2.-voluntary
3
3%
2.-involuntary
18
17%
3.-voluntary
4
4%
3.-involuntary
18
17%
4.-voluntary
4
4%
4.-involuntary
17
16%
5.-voluntary
4
4%
5.-involuntary
17
16%
 
Total votes : 106

Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:56 pm

john9blue wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:still pisses me off that you're treating "voluntary" and "involuntary" like they are binary.

suppose bubba from example 1 tells hotep "if you don't accept my trade then i'm gonna poke you in the belly" voluntary or involuntary?

what if he threatens to punch him in the arm? or in the face? what if he threatens to beat him up? or kill him?

when does it cross the imaginary line from voluntary to involuntary?


Is this directed at me?

If so, do you know what "duress" means?


yes and yes. do you consider actions done under duress to be involuntary? if so, at what point does the threat of physical contact become duress?


If I answered, then I would fall into the later trap of repeating myself, so here you go:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184805&start=45#p4039190

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184805&start=45#p4039205
(The Kid-Parent Exchange involves the most mild duress ITT, but I'll be consistent and call that coercion, thus an involuntary exchange. But we're talking about the government, not screaming kids, so that ambiguity--for which a case can be made--is irrelevant).


When you think of exchange involving coercion/made under duress, do you think of someone threatening to poke you in the belly button like the Pillsbury Dough Boy? Or do you think of someone waving a gun at you, demanding your money?
(physical contact != physical violence).
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:57 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't think FT understands what "duress" means...

Ha! If you're under duress in those examples it's your own damn fault, that's my point. Self imposed/inflicted duress is not my problem. Btw, nice ninja edit punk but the damage has been done. *sniff*

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
john9blue wrote:no matter how terrible they make your other options? so you think number 2 from the OP is voluntary?

I don't see how the terrible-ness of your options enters into it? Number 2 is involuntary because it's directly stated that it's an "offer you can't refuse". Otherwise, I might answer differently.


that's a figure of speech. you are free to refuse their offer, but you will presumably get driven out of town or killed as a result.

Here's a scenario:
You have a personal hang-up that dictates that you will not walk on the sidewalk unless it is completely void of other people. One day you need to deliver a letter to the post office on the corner of your street but the sidewalk is busy all day and you aren't able to mail your important letter. Does this mean that the people on the sidewalk all day were making your staying in your apartment involuntary or were they just exercising their ability to walk the sidewalk? If every passerby put a nail in your door so that you physically couldn't get out, then it would be involuntary.


C'mon, FT. The scenario was clarified, so be considerate and answer the question.

I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.


Wow, we've already been through these arguments. I give up.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby patches70 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:33 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Wow, we've already been through these arguments. I give up.



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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:15 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Wow, we've already been through these arguments. I give up.

Yeah we've been through them but you've failed to convince me just as much as I you so what are you complaining about? If some new information is made relevant I'm willing to continue but it just sounds to me like we fundamentally disagree. That doesn't have to mean that one or the other of us is being dense or whatever you're implying. Evidently you have the notion that continuing to remain in an establishment is not a voluntary agreement to abide by said establishments rules, even if you are able to leave. I feel that it is a voluntary exchange if you choose to stay because you deem the value of staying greater than the value of leaving and nothing you have written has been convincing enough to cause me to change my mind.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby john9blue on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:33 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.


why do past actions make any difference as to whether an action i take NOW is voluntary or not?

I'm glad you finally asked. Because they are, in the examples in question, part of the same transaction which started when you first accepted the terms(to remain in establishment) and more importantly, accepted your past, present and future benefits of said transaction.
I don't see the argument that any of these things come out of the blue and slam into you. It's been implied from the get-go that you understand the conditions of all these exchanges so how could any but those where you are absolutely forced to do something be considered involuntary? I mean, when you get into a fistfight it's voluntary whether or not the other person started it or not right?


transaction? wtf? you've been reading too many BBS posts.

suppose i tell you today that i promise that i'll buy you a pony if i ever win the lottery. i win the lottery in 50 years, and old man FT comes up to me with a gun and demands his pony. i have no recollection of my pony promise. when i give you your pony because i fear being murdered... was it voluntary?

you're imposing your morality onto me by claiming that anything you deem a "fair outcome" is voluntary by definition, and anything you deem "unfair" is involuntary. totally ridiculous.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:yes and yes. do you consider actions done under duress to be involuntary? if so, at what point does the threat of physical contact become duress?


If I answered, then I would fall into the later trap of repeating myself, so here you go:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184805&start=45#p4039190

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184805&start=45#p4039205
(The Kid-Parent Exchange involves the most mild duress ITT, but I'll be consistent and call that coercion, thus an involuntary exchange. But we're talking about the government, not screaming kids, so that ambiguity--for which a case can be made--is irrelevant).


When you think of exchange involving coercion/made under duress, do you think of someone threatening to poke you in the belly button like the Pillsbury Dough Boy? Or do you think of someone waving a gun at you, demanding your money?
(physical contact != physical violence).


your posts have the same problem. you talk about initial exchanges and implicit rules and invisible contracts as if the definition of free will depends on some words that came out of our mouths long ago and whether those words are stored somewhere in our memory banks.

there is no clear division between implicit and explicit consent, or whether someone is in their "right mind" or not, or whether a rule is "formal" or "informal". it ALL depends on individual interpretation. you seem to be using legal terms without realizing that those terms have no absolute meaning and can only be loosely defined by a judge in a courtroom. you place more faith in the absolute, unwavering meaning of language than you really should, probably because it makes concepts like that easier for people to grasp.

...and after reading your second post, it appears that you do the same thing... arbitrarily defining a temper tantrum as physical violence... i wonder, what decibel level does the kid's whining have to reach for the exchange to be involuntary? :lol:
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:59 pm

john9blue wrote:transaction? wtf? you've been reading too many BBS posts.

Probably.

john9blue wrote:suppose i tell you today that i promise that i'll buy you a pony if i ever win the lottery. i win the lottery in 50 years, and old man FT comes up to me with a gun and demands his pony. i have no recollection of my pony promise. when i give you your pony because i fear being murdered... was it voluntary?

This is sort of a mixture of two of the issues we have been talking about. I feel that if you remember the promise it's voluntary and the gun doesn't even enter into it but if you got amnesia or something I suppose the transaction becomes void and the exchange involuntary but does this refresh your memory?*Holds gun to johnblue's head*

john9blue wrote:You're imposing your morality onto me by claiming that anything you deem a "fair outcome" is voluntary by definition, and anything you deem "unfair" is involuntary. totally ridiculous.

Not really. An agreement that is mutual is the key to being voluntary/involuntary, not whether or not it's considered "fair" by all those involved.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby john9blue on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:02 pm

"mutual" is a weasel word. how much coercion must there be for an agreement to no longer be "mutual"?
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Lootifer on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:13 pm

john9blue wrote:"mutual" is a weasel word. how much coercion must there be for an agreement to no longer be "mutual"?

And in addition to this, how much of that coercion is readily apparant to the coercee?

Either way very nice work on the self-back-patting thread BBS.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:40 pm

john9blue wrote:"mutual" is a weasel word. how much coercion must there be for an agreement to no longer be "mutual"?

You've got something against weasels? I love my ferret! :evil:

To me the word mutual only means that both agreed to it, nothing more. Both members of the exchange find going through with the exchange better than not going through with it. The problem is that you guys keep using the example of someone threatening to kill you which isn't even part of the exchange but a means to enforce the exchange. The gangsters are using force to get you to go through with the exchange but the exchange is still voluntary. They want money, not you killed, else they would just open your door and kill you. I suppose this exchange is really about respecting the power of the gangsters. You are voluntarily guessing that the gangsters are probably more powerful than you so it is in your best interest to "just pay the men". If you get overcharged by a plumber but end up paying him anyway, is this involuntary? No, because you know that in the long run he could probably sue you for theft of services and win. The exchange with the bandits is similar in that it's an exchange of power and you voluntarily submit.
As far as making a pact in the past, passive or active, this pact can be involved in a current exchange. If you promised me something ten years ago and I use force to get you to follow through with your promise, the force is not part of the exchange itself, it's just a way to get someone to follow through with their exchange and does not affect the voluntary nature of the exchange. In other words, the force is irrelevant to the nature of this exchange because you've already agreed to it previously.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:45 pm

john9blue wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I'm a lot of things but I try not to be inconsiderate.
Ok so the question is whether or not I now consider #2 voluntary? I think I answered that it was involuntary way back when since I assumed that you were literally forced to comply. In all fairness I think I need even more clarification. Do the mobsters run the neighborhood? Did I ask a favor of them in the past? Have the mobsters watched over my family for generations and generations when outside forces threatened to harm them? All of these questions need to be answered please before I can go further. What I can say for certain is this: If there are outstanding debts which are understood and explicitly stated warning that at some point in the future you may have to "pay up" then if you remain part of this establishment you can't cry it's involuntary when the piper shows up.


why do past actions make any difference as to whether an action i take NOW is voluntary or not?

I'm glad you finally asked. Because they are, in the examples in question, part of the same transaction which started when you first accepted the terms(to remain in establishment) and more importantly, accepted your past, present and future benefits of said transaction.
I don't see the argument that any of these things come out of the blue and slam into you. It's been implied from the get-go that you understand the conditions of all these exchanges so how could any but those where you are absolutely forced to do something be considered involuntary? I mean, when you get into a fistfight it's voluntary whether or not the other person started it or not right?


transaction? wtf? you've been reading too many BBS posts.

suppose i tell you today that i promise that i'll buy you a pony if i ever win the lottery. i win the lottery in 50 years, and old man FT comes up to me with a gun and demands his pony. i have no recollection of my pony promise. when i give you your pony because i fear being murdered... was it voluntary?

you're imposing your morality onto me by claiming that anything you deem a "fair outcome" is voluntary by definition, and anything you deem "unfair" is involuntary. totally ridiculous.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
john9blue wrote:yes and yes. do you consider actions done under duress to be involuntary? if so, at what point does the threat of physical contact become duress?


If I answered, then I would fall into the later trap of repeating myself, so here you go:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184805&start=45#p4039190

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184805&start=45#p4039205
(The Kid-Parent Exchange involves the most mild duress ITT, but I'll be consistent and call that coercion, thus an involuntary exchange. But we're talking about the government, not screaming kids, so that ambiguity--for which a case can be made--is irrelevant).


When you think of exchange involving coercion/made under duress, do you think of someone threatening to poke you in the belly button like the Pillsbury Dough Boy? Or do you think of someone waving a gun at you, demanding your money?
(physical contact != physical violence).


your posts have the same problem. you talk about initial exchanges and implicit rules and invisible contracts as if the definition of free will depends on some words that came out of our mouths long ago and whether those words are stored somewhere in our memory banks.

there is no clear division between implicit and explicit consent, or whether someone is in their "right mind" or not, or whether a rule is "formal" or "informal". it ALL depends on individual interpretation. you seem to be using legal terms without realizing that those terms have no absolute meaning and can only be loosely defined by a judge in a courtroom. you place more faith in the absolute, unwavering meaning of language than you really should, probably because it makes concepts like that easier for people to grasp.

...and after reading your second post, it appears that you do the same thing... arbitrarily defining a temper tantrum as physical violence... i wonder, what decibel level does the kid's whining have to reach for the exchange to be involuntary? :lol:

[1]
For issues that matter, e.g. exchanges with the government, then around this level:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a73_1254508478

Directly stand in front of one of those, and tell me if you think it hurt you.
(Did you agree to that? Did you sign a contract with the government do that to you?
(What about having a kid? Were you/gf raped or did you agree to have the child? Did you agree to dealing with kids? Again, having kids involves many ambiguities, but such concerns become significantly less relevant when we discuss the citizen and the government.)


[2]
I've already addressed the ambiguities, so you're not mentioning anything new here. The philosophical debate about free will is irrelevant. If you still believe this after reading the links I mentioned to you, then what do?

Regarding your other points, it doesn't seem that you've read and understood my definitions and examples of voluntary v. involuntary exchange, so here's your one chance: lay down you strongest contention against my position, and then I'll wholeheartedly address it--even if I have to repeat myself.

[3]
"it ALL depends on individual interpretation"
It really isn't as subjective as you think, but of course any crazy person can say, "The MOON is CHEESE cuz it ALL depends on individual interpretation."
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:49 pm

Lootifer wrote:
john9blue wrote:"mutual" is a weasel word. how much coercion must there be for an agreement to no longer be "mutual"?

And in addition to this, how much of that coercion is readily apparant to the coercee?

Either way very nice work on the self-back-patting thread BBS.


SILENCE!! I'm busy forging libertarians here!!!
(Don't you think people should understand the ambiguities involved and the differences between the two?)


Great question by the by---JUST BETWEEN YOU AND ME: that's one of the main reasons why I brought up this thread. We'll kick-start that after I'm finished talking with j9b.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:32 am

Look, I'm fine with changing things but until they change I think the rules are pretty much black and white. I'm not condoning the system necessarily, I just think that we have ourselves to blame for it since we voluntarily continue to stay in it as it exists.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby john9blue on Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:58 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:[1]
For issues that matter, e.g. exchanges with the government, then around this level:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a73_1254508478

Directly stand in front of one of those, and tell me if you think it hurt you.
(Did you agree to that? Did you sign a contract with the government do that to you?
(What about having a kid? Were you/gf raped or did you agree to have the child? Did you agree to dealing with kids? Again, having kids involves many ambiguities, but such concerns become significantly less relevant when we discuss the citizen and the government.)


i don't really think those are the only issues that matter... but yes i agree that there is less ambiguity when it comes to government, the primary reason being that it is so one-sided. the government is so much larger than any individual, which allows it to exercise such a high level of coercion. that being said, the choice to follow federal laws is still a choice, although one very skewed towards the "involuntary" side of the spectrum.

BigBallinStalin wrote:[2]
I've already addressed the ambiguities, so you're not mentioning anything new here. The philosophical debate about free will is irrelevant. If you still believe this after reading the links I mentioned to you, then what do?

Regarding your other points, it doesn't seem that you've read and understood my definitions and examples of voluntary v. involuntary exchange, so here's your one chance: lay down you strongest contention against my position, and then I'll wholeheartedly address it--even if I have to repeat myself.


you claim in the first link that the difference between voluntary and involuntary is clear despite the ambiguities... which doesn't make sense considering that this means two parties involved can have different perspectives on whether an exchange was voluntary or involuntary.

free will is a whole different debate and i am assuming ITT that free will does exist. if it doesn't then every action is involuntary and the debate is over (unless you redefine "free will")


BigBallinStalin wrote:[3]
"it ALL depends on individual interpretation"
It really isn't as subjective as you think, but of course any crazy person can say, "The MOON is CHEESE cuz it ALL depends on individual interpretation."


no. language is a human construction and words factually DO have different meanings to different people.

anyway here's a summary of my position (since you asked):

since free will exists (which is our assumption ITT) humans always have the choice to engage in any action that they are capable of doing. every action is influenced by an uncountable number of external influencing factors, and some factors exert a larger influence upon our decision-making than others. in this way we are "coerced" by many, many things to varying degrees every time we make a decision.

last week i decided to purchase lunch at mcdonald's. i was coerced in a small way by mcdonald's advertising, in a medium way by the corporation's decision to place a restaurant in downtown chicago near my workplace, in a large way by my past experiences with mcdonald's (which in turn were originally coerced by my parents' initial decision to feed me mcdonald's occasionally as a kid), and in a super-size way by my coworker's recommendation of the new chicken wings that mcdonald's has recently brought to our area.

however, i think you can agree that my decision to eat at mcdonald's was largely voluntary.

you can see that coercion doesn't have to be a threat of physical violence, or even a threat of anything for that matter. you could regard mcdonald's advertising as a form of aggression against the healthiness of americans, if you wish. it doesn't change anything. actions SHOULD only be deemed "good" or "bad" based on their effects. if someone strapped a bomb on me permanently and threatened to detonate it the next time i smoke heroin, then their aggressive coercion is going to benefit me in the long run, especially compared to the gentle coercion of my friend who first got me addicted to heroin (spoiler: i am not actually addicted to heroin). this is what i meant when i said that FT was pushing his morality onto me- he sees aggressive coercion as an automatically bad thing regardless of its effects, and i don't agree with that.

there is a parallel in government: we are forced essentially at gunpoint to not murder our fellow citizens. this is direct coercion akin to the bomb-strapping and is a largely involuntary exchange. you CANNOT say that it's voluntary simply because our choice to kill someone is immoral- firstly, killing is not always immoral, and secondly, the moral goodness of an action has nothing to do with the degree to which that action was voluntary. the government is directly limiting our choices.

however, assuming you aren't a total anarchist, i think you can see the benefit of this exchange. the aggressiveness of the government's coercion goes from this extreme, to jail time if you assault someone, to a ticket if you're caught speeding, to michelle obama's efforts to get kids to eat healthier (and her disapproval of those who eat mcdonald's like me). in each case the government is exerting their influence on your decision-making processes. yet michelle obama is not forcing me to do anything that most people would call "involuntary".

so, not only does it not make sense to try and define a line between voluntary and involuntary, it also doesn't make sense to try and talk about governmental influence as if it was separate from all other forms of coercion. and it doesn't make sense to declare all forms of coercion to be immoral, but that may be a separate discussion.
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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:17 am

john, you keep using 'coercion' for things that aren't coercion, e.g. your McD's advertising.


1.
the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.
2.
force or the power to use force in gaining compliance, as by a government or police force.

Just because an act has varying degrees of intensity, it doesn't qualify as not involuntary. The final four OP scenarios are involuntary exchanges, unless you consented to be ruled by a king or liberal democracy and waived your rights.

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Re: Voluntary Exchange

Postby john9blue on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:23 am

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:john, you keep using 'coercion' for things that aren't coercion, e.g. your McD's advertising.


1.
the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.
2.
force or the power to use force in gaining compliance, as by a government or police force.

Just because an act has varying degrees of intensity, it doesn't qualify as not involuntary. The final four OP scenarios are involuntary exchanges, unless you consented to be ruled by a king or liberal democracy and waived your rights.

-TG


mcdonald's advertising is the result of mcdonald's using its power to gain my acceptance of its products and my compliance in purchasing them.

i use "coercion" in a similar manner to "influence" or "persuasion". it's true that the word implies a rather strong type of persuasion, but if they are so distinct to you, then what do you think is the key difference between the meaning of the two words, other than degree of influence?
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