Public Education: BBS v. TGD

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Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:34 pm

I'm in favor of public education. I think it should be the largest federal expenditure.

BBS is not in favor of public education.

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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:50 am

If we must subject ourselves to the government provision of public education, then I decree we must favor a polycentric approach instead of a "one-size-fits-all" approach--as provided by the federal government.

First, we will tackle the issue of States v. Federal Government provision.

Then, we will tackle the issue of States v. Market provision.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:22 am

So this is thread is exclusive to you two? Ooh, that'll be fun.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby john9blue on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:28 am

i'm crashing this party (read: subscribing to this topic) cuz i'm interested in this topic
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby Neoteny on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:30 am

I'm drunk too weeee
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:13 am

Funkyterrance wrote:So this is thread is exclusive to you two? Ooh, that'll be fun.


Is any thread exclusive to two people?
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:20 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:If we must subject ourselves to the government provision of public education, then I decree we must favor a polycentric approach instead of a "one-size-fits-all" approach--as provided by the federal government.

First, we will tackle the issue of States v. Federal Government provision.

Then, we will tackle the issue of States v. Market provision.


I propose this order:

(1) What government body should fund education (federal, state, local)?

My response is all three.

(2) What government body should be responsible for specific educational requirements?

My response is all three, with the federal government mandating the basic minimum requirements (which would still be high standards).

(3) What government makes the "day-to-day" decisions?

My response is the local government.

In any event, I think your order should be reversed if we end up going with those questions.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:29 am

I know this doesn't vector to the underlying philosophical intent of this thread, but what if parents had to reimburse the state if their child didn't graduate from high school (exemptions if the child died or was of below-average intelligence). California spends $8,000 per student, per year K-12. IOW, if your child attended public school in California and didn't graduate, you'd be billed $104,000. If you don't pay, the state sues you, destroys your credit rating, puts a lien on your home and starts garnishing your wages.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:30 am

Tgd has me sold so far.

My main issue with public education is something I hope you could answer Tgd.

Being that the role of education is to make educated citizens, how can we educate children without indoctrinating them? Especially with teachers being public employees, they are usually brainwashing children to believe in leftist propaganda.

Another form of indoctrination I worry about is religious. Should public education be forcibly universal?

Do all people need education? For example, is it ok if I don't send my child sex slave to school?
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:31 am

saxitoxin wrote:I know this doesn't vector to the underlying philosophical intent of this thread, but what if parents had to reimburse the state if their child didn't graduate from high school (exemptions if the child died or was of below-average intelligence). California spends $8,000 per student, per year K-12. IOW, if your child attended public school in California and didn't graduate, you'd be billed $104,000. If you don't pay, the state sues you, destroys your credit rating, puts a lien on your home and starts garnishing your wages.


Direct attack on the poor.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:39 am

DoomYoshi wrote:Tgd has me sold so far.

My main issue with public education is something I hope you could answer Tgd.

Being that the role of education is to make educated citizens, how can we educate children without indoctrinating them? Especially with teachers being public employees, they are usually brainwashing children to believe in leftist propaganda.

Another form of indoctrination I worry about is religious. Should public education be forcibly universal?

Do all people need education? For example, is it ok if I don't send my child sex slave to school?


These look like three main issues.

(1) Indoctrination

Generally (and I use the term loosely), indoctrination can only really happen in classes like history or politics or social studies. Perhaps English or literature classes. Science and mathematics are not really things where one can get indoctrinated. If we just take the "indoctrinatable (patent pending) classes" (history, social studies) and acknowledge that there is indoctrination happening at public schools, the question I would ask in return is this - why do you care? Parents generally have as much or more control over indoctrinating their children than teachers. I'm not suggesting we ignore the issue, I just think the issue is made way bigger than it is by creationist, revisionist historians, and the like.

(2) Forced Public Education

Public education should not be universally enforcible no. As I indicated in the past, if someone is educated in a Christian school that teaches creationism, for example, and that evolution is false, I would question the ability of that student to succeed in a realm like science. So ultimately, who cares? If your concern is that some people will be religious while others are not, I wonder what the problem is with that? All that being said, there would be a pretty interesting constitutional argument.

However, I think whatever the federal mandated minimum requirements are should be required to be met by home schools and private schools and religious schools. If that means evolution must be taught in schools, so be it. My brother and sister both went to Catholic schools (by far the highest number of private religious schools) and were taught evolution so I don't think that's much of an impediment to free religious practices, but I'm sure there are some that would disagree.

(3) Child Sex Slaves

I'm not addressing this.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:41 am

saxitoxin wrote:I know this doesn't vector to the underlying philosophical intent of this thread, but what if parents had to reimburse the state if their child didn't graduate from high school (exemptions if the child died or was of below-average intelligence). California spends $8,000 per student, per year K-12. IOW, if your child attended public school in California and didn't graduate, you'd be billed $104,000. If you don't pay, the state sues you, destroys your credit rating, puts a lien on your home and starts garnishing your wages.


That may solve the issue with the United States paying more poor student than any other country (by far) without a return on the investment.

And that is really the issue where I have the biggest problem. The United States already pours a fuck-ton of money into public education. Schools are generally well funded. Teachers are generally well-paid (for working 9 months a year and 6 to 8 hours a day). So what's the deal?
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby Timminz on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:34 am

thegreekdog wrote:with the United States paying more poor student than any other country (by far) without a return on the investment.


This is interesting. I recall hearing that this is true in health care as well.

Why is it that the American government is so much less effective in these areas (and probably others) than the governments of other countries?
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby saxitoxin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:46 am

Timminz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:with the United States paying more poor student than any other country (by far) without a return on the investment.


This is interesting. I recall hearing that this is true in health care as well.


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Timminz wrote:Why is it that the American government is so much less effective in these areas (and probably others) than the governments of other countries?


The US Congress is twice as big as the Belgium parliament, but the US GDP is 30 times as big as the Belgium GDP. That means there's 1,500% more fat in the U.S. for the taking. In Belgium, there are no meaningful power opportunities inside government so wealth seekers don't pursue public service. In the U.S. there are meaningful power opportunities inside government so wealth seekers do pursue public service.

see: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=184629
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:57 am

Timminz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:with the United States paying more poor student than any other country (by far) without a return on the investment.


This is interesting. I recall hearing that this is true in health care as well.

Why is it that the American government is so much less effective in these areas (and probably others) than the governments of other countries?


I think it's a combination parent/culture issue. It's pretty clear that money is not the issue, so it must be something else.

But you're asking about healthcare as well. My personal opinion is that it's a combination of government oversight and regulation and insurance company practices (and insurance company rent-seeking). Most unknowledgeable supporters of the Affordable Care Act will shout me down, but the ACA is just a continuation of that process. If we wanted to solve the problem of healthcare costs in the United States, we would either make healthcare (not insurnace, care) fully socialized and government-provided or unravel the tangled web of oversight, regulation, and the ability of insurance companies to influence said oversight and regulation.
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