Public Education: BBS v. TGD

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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:51 am

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
TGD wrote:Let me use yet another example:

I need to get from my home in Philadelphia to my aunt's house in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I walk to New Jersey. Am I being efficient? I don't know. Are there better ways to reach my goal?


intended end = aunt's house at Pitts, PA.
means = walking

Success? No, fail cuz:

unintended and actual end = New Jersey

Efficient? No, all inputs were wasted because the desired output (end) was not attained.


How would you have accomplished the goal of getting to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania? You have not provided any other option of how to get from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh, never mind providing a more efficient way to get there. You say walking is inefficient and you say that walking to New Jersey is unsuccessful... but that's my position on the best way to reach my goal. What is your position?


What? You intend on going to Pitts, PA, but instead you walk to New Jersey. The journey ended there.

If you believe that's your best way to reach your goal, then you're being irrational.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficiency
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:00 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
How can an economist determine if the means most efficiently lead to the ends without a comparison? When you use the phrase "most efficiently" by specifically including the word "most" that seems to indicate that there are other choices. I cannot say something the means are most efficient for the ends unless I have another means to compare it to.

Let's craft an example:

A boy is selling apple cider in front of his house. In order to make the apple cider he must squeeze the apples by hand, spending approximately 2 hours per apply and generating only 1 ounce of cider. Is his current method of apple cider making the most efficient method to lead to making the cider? If you answer the question "no," then you must provide a different method for the boy to make his cider. If you answer the question "yes," then you must show that other methods are not as efficient.


Because efficiency depends on the goal, the end, which is why I'm asking you about the goal of the federal government's provision of public education. If the government intends to provide public education, but instead we get very expensive warehouses which basically hold a bunch of kids from 7AM to 3PM, then this was inefficient. If the government intended to bankroll many team-playing, public employees while marketing campaign promises about education in order to gain votes, then this was efficient.

re: underlined, in many cases, it's difficult (or perhaps impossible) to show the counter-factual--especially if the government prevents alternative avenues of discovery. Just sayin'.


Again, I cannot indicate whether the method is efficient or not without deciding that there is an alternative. Further, your post is completely ludicrous because it is not about efficiency, it's about two different goals. Your stated goal in sentence 1 is public education. Your stated goal in sentence 2 is expensive warehouses.

Let me use yet another example:

I need to get from my home in Philadelphia to my aunt's house in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I walk to New Jersey. Am I being efficient? I don't know. Are there better ways to reach my goal?

You need to tell me if there is a better way to provide education than the current system or federal, state, and local funding and regulation of education.


The expensive warehouses are analogous to the ineffective schooling which many kids receive from public schools.

I keep mentioning this efficiency/effectiveness aspect because we make implicit assumptions about the goals of individuals within the various levels of government and the bureaucracies which oversee the many parts of public education. We assume that all of them (or most, or enough of them) strive to maximize the quality of education for the best of the nation, but I doubt this is the case.

I assume that those individuals are just as self-interested as you and me. Their best perceived self-interest will shape their goals and the means for attaining those goals. Therefore, since their goals will defer, then the efficiency of their production processes will be measured along different standards.

(By production processes, I mean, the black box through which inputs (students) enter and from which the outputs (kids with grammar/high school/whatever degrees) exit).


Why does this contention of mine matter?

Because the government is not this black box through which public education is efficiently maximized. We know this when stated clearly, but we tend to forget such nuances when we claim that public education is best for the nation and that the market would suck at it.*

*For example, it's the same issue I must address when people (like crazyirishman) discuss various problems about markets. They ask about all these intricate questions, yet they usually never level the same standard of criticism against government-provided and/or controlled/regulated education.


I don't mean to disregard all this (okay, maybe I do), but this is largely irrelevant to the discussion. You are critiquing public education, which is fine, but you are not providing an alternative (nevermind a viable alternative). In fact, I would venture to say I don't disagree with anything you've typed thus far in terms of criticisms of public education. But, based on background information from other threads, I gathered that you had an alternative to public education that would prove better (more efficient and more successful) than public education. I have not yet seen that in this thread. You have my alternative (public education) but you have yet to provide your own which would allow me to compare and contrast.

You mentioned on my wall that you would like to discuss the first question, so let's start with that - Is it in an individual's (or group's) best interest for other peoples' children to be educated? We can make changes to this questions (for example, it may not be in my best interest for every child to be educated in tax concepts because that makes my job less relevant and/or in less demand, so maybe we remove that kind of thing from consideration). Really, the question is - do you want neighbors who are highly uneducated or do you want neighbors who have modicum (the level of education is subject to differentials obviously) of education?


You'll see. It's completely relevant. I'm going to refer to this in a few posts.

All you have to do is apply this approach to your own stance, and you'll find yourself groping for (a) assumptions about human behavior, and (b) some theory which explains that your desired outcome (good public education) will be realized.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:19 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
TGD wrote:Let me use yet another example:

I need to get from my home in Philadelphia to my aunt's house in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I walk to New Jersey. Am I being efficient? I don't know. Are there better ways to reach my goal?


intended end = aunt's house at Pitts, PA.
means = walking

Success? No, fail cuz:

unintended and actual end = New Jersey

Efficient? No, all inputs were wasted because the desired output (end) was not attained.


Okay, now (or more accurately sometime two posts before) you made the discussion about success achieving a stated goal and not efficiency in achieving a stated goal. That is why I provided I different scenario/example.

If the stated purpose of public education is to provide education to children, if the goal is successful just one time then the stated goal has been achieved. Maybe the stated goal was not achieved efficiently, but then we have no barometer or alternative with which to compare. Since I was publicly educated and I am fairly successful, I can say that the goal of the federal government in providing public education was successful.

Now let's move on, again, to whether the federal government is efficient. I don't know the answer. But for the sake of this argument, let's say that public education is the only option; therefore it must be the most efficient. If you can come up with 20 other options, then we can discuss whether public education is less or more efficient than those other options.


Okay, no federal government involved. Go.


YAY!

I (finally) need to prepare my arguments.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:17 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
TGD wrote:Let me use yet another example:

I need to get from my home in Philadelphia to my aunt's house in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I walk to New Jersey. Am I being efficient? I don't know. Are there better ways to reach my goal?


intended end = aunt's house at Pitts, PA.
means = walking

Success? No, fail cuz:

unintended and actual end = New Jersey

Efficient? No, all inputs were wasted because the desired output (end) was not attained.


How would you have accomplished the goal of getting to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania? You have not provided any other option of how to get from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh, never mind providing a more efficient way to get there. You say walking is inefficient and you say that walking to New Jersey is unsuccessful... but that's my position on the best way to reach my goal. What is your position?


What? You intend on going to Pitts, PA, but instead you walk to New Jersey. The journey ended there.

If you believe that's your best way to reach your goal, then you're being irrational.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficiency


Wrong. Location is a boolean variable. I can be in Pittsburg or New Jersey, not both.

Education is a continuous variable, like money.

If your goal is to make dollars, and you make two dollars, are you being inefficient?

The thing is, nobody knows the maximum amount of dollars you can make and nobody knows the highest attainable education.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:08 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
TGD wrote:Let me use yet another example:

I need to get from my home in Philadelphia to my aunt's house in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I walk to New Jersey. Am I being efficient? I don't know. Are there better ways to reach my goal?


intended end = aunt's house at Pitts, PA.
means = walking

Success? No, fail cuz:

unintended and actual end = New Jersey

Efficient? No, all inputs were wasted because the desired output (end) was not attained.


How would you have accomplished the goal of getting to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania? You have not provided any other option of how to get from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh, never mind providing a more efficient way to get there. You say walking is inefficient and you say that walking to New Jersey is unsuccessful... but that's my position on the best way to reach my goal. What is your position?


What? You intend on going to Pitts, PA, but instead you walk to New Jersey. The journey ended there.

If you believe that's your best way to reach your goal, then you're being irrational.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficiency


Wrong. Location is a boolean variable. I can be in Pittsburg or New Jersey, not both.

Education is a continuous variable, like money.

If your goal is to make dollars, and you make two dollars, are you being inefficient?

The thing is, nobody knows the maximum amount of dollars you can make and nobody knows the highest attainable education.


So, if your intended goal is "walk to the nearest store," and you unintentionally walk to Shanghai, China, then you have no way of knowing if your rational decision-making was inefficient?

Suppose I establish a high school, but since "education is a continuous variable" and "nobody knows the highest attainable education," then it is impossible for me determine the effectiveness and efficiency of the high school?
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:24 pm

No, the way of determining an effectiveness is to compare to results of other systems. Alternately, you can set a minimum standard to test again. Either way, you can't just say: is education working without (preferably) previously defining a minimum standard or looking at other systems.

Once again, the nearest store and Shanghai are two different places, I can not be in both (unless I live in Shanghai). So the point doesn't matter.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:25 pm

In other words: "education" is not a concisely and precisely defined goal. "nearest store" is.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:34 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:No, the way of determining an effectiveness is to compare to results of other systems. Alternately, you can set a minimum standard to test again. Either way, you can't just say: is education working without (preferably) previously defining a minimum standard or looking at other systems.

Once again, the nearest store and Shanghai are two different places, I can not be in both (unless I live in Shanghai). So the point doesn't matter.


Disagree.

DoomYoshi wrote:In other words: "education" is not a concisely and precisely defined goal. "nearest store" is.


Agree.

Hence, my insisting TGD to define the goal.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:42 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:No, the way of determining an effectiveness is to compare to results of other systems. Alternately, you can set a minimum standard to test again. Either way, you can't just say: is education working without (preferably) previously defining a minimum standard or looking at other systems.

Once again, the nearest store and Shanghai are two different places, I can not be in both (unless I live in Shanghai). So the point doesn't matter.


Disagree.

DoomYoshi wrote:In other words: "education" is not a concisely and precisely defined goal. "nearest store" is.


Agree.

Hence, my insisting TGD to define the goal.


Insisting schmisisting. I asked the question of what the goal is many posts ago. We need to agree on the goal first before we can debate on the best ways to get to the goal.

The question, for your reference: Is it in an individual's (or group's) best interest for other peoples' children to be educated?

If the answer to that question is yes, then we can move on to determining the best way to educate all children. If the answer to that question is no, then we need to redefine what our goal is so we can best determine the way to reach the goal.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:46 pm

How can you disagree with one but not the other? They are the same point in different language.

A third form:

If you are asking for x, you can check to see if you have x and determine efficiency.
If you are asking for the x-axis, you can check nothing, as that is totally surreal.
Education is the axis. "Can spell own name in Greek" is just a point on that axis. Whether that is above or below "ties knot into cherry stem with mouth while blowing bubblegum" is a totally different question.

So you asked tgd for a definition, and he is going to give you one. But it is equally valid to say instead of "I want 25 units of education", "I want whatever units of education is considered number one in the world" or "I want the system that gives the most education".

You are asking for statement one. If we were talking dollars, I would agree with you. Since we are talking education, setting arbitrary minimum standards invariably fails because (a) the minimum standards become only a proxy for what you actually want - education (b) focusing on this proxy disregards the rest of the axis (at this point it's more a 7-space curve) (c) the standards get lowered after the realization that they are impossible.

The entire system is backwards. Basically, it is modeled how charity systems should work, and charity systems are modeled how the education system would work. Education is focused on bringing everyone down to the lowest common denominator while charity is focused on making everyone as wealthy as possible. The world couldn't support humanity if everyone was as wealthy as Americans though, so charitable organizations should instead focus on making Americans poorer. The mind seems to have pretty much limitless capacity for education though, so education should focus on making everyone as rich as possible.

The flaw in the system has nothing to do with government. It has everything to do with the bullshit insistence on minimum standards, demanded by economists. Anyways, that's the end of my foray into your conversation. You can continue to argue about the aspects that don't matter, while criminals like Rugg, Counts, Hanna and Dewey get to write the textbooks. I wish you would put your mind to use in more important aspects of the problem: the indoctrination of children.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:49 pm

I'm pretty sure BBS and Saxi have a side bet on how long he can string me along until he tells me what's wrong with public education and the alternative to public education that will achieve the goal of education.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby Lootifer on Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:52 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I'm pretty sure BBS and Saxi have a side bet on how long he can string me along until he tells me what's wrong with public education and the alternative to public education that will achieve the goal of education.

I was going to jump straight to the chase and suggest he outline ole Miltys voucher system already.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby Timminz on Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:34 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Is it in an individual's (or group's) best interest for other peoples' children to be educated?


In a free market, what is in someone's best interest is represented by what they value the most. Since all people value different things differently, we can assume that it is not in everyone's best interest to have other people's children educated. Now, we can likely also assume that those who value the education of other people's children, also value educating themselves. So, people who value education (for themselves, and those around them) will end up living in areas with other people who value education, while those who value education lower will live in their own areas around other people who don't value education.

Free market solution ftw!
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:49 pm

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thegreekdog wrote:Is it in an individual's (or group's) best interest for other peoples' children to be educated?


In a free market, what is in someone's best interest is represented by what they value the most. Since all people value different things differently, we can assume that it is not in everyone's best interest to have other people's children educated. Now, we can likely also assume that those who value the education of other people's children, also value educating themselves. So, people who value education (for themselves, and those around them) will end up living in areas with other people who value education, while those who value education lower will live in their own areas around other people who don't value education.

Free market solution ftw!


Nice. I'm stumped on that one... for now... for now.
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Re: Public Education: BBS v. TGD

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:45 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Tgd has me sold so far.

My main issue with public education is something I hope you could answer Tgd.

Being that the role of education is to make educated citizens, how can we educate children without indoctrinating them? Especially with teachers being public employees, they are usually brainwashing children to believe in leftist propaganda.

Another form of indoctrination I worry about is religious. Should public education be forcibly universal?

Do all people need education? For example, is it ok if I don't send my child sex slave to school?


These look like three main issues.

(1) Indoctrination

Generally (and I use the term loosely), indoctrination can only really happen in classes like history or politics or social studies. Perhaps English or literature classes. Science and mathematics are not really things where one can get indoctrinated. If we just take the "indoctrinatable (patent pending) classes" (history, social studies) and acknowledge that there is indoctrination happening at public schools, the question I would ask in return is this - why do you care? Parents generally have as much or more control over indoctrinating their children than teachers. I'm not suggesting we ignore the issue, I just think the issue is made way bigger than it is by creationist, revisionist historians, and the like.
[/quote]
First, I do dispute your assumption that math and science cannot be used for indoctrination. They should be exempt, but the "debate" over evolution shows that is not the case. When you dispute actual facts and call them theories, then it is indoctrination, whether it is a TV advertisement or a science text put out by Dr Morris' group. However, this is your/BBS thread, so I will leave that discussion for elsewhere.

That said, do you seriously believe that teachers don't significantly influence children? What about parents who have taught their kids to dislike people of other races. I have most definitely seen a change in people my age in that regard, many of us have very different opinions from our parents or grandparents.
Is it really that parents have more control or is it that, traditionally, parents have not significantly opposed what is taught in the school, have mostly hired teachers who agreed with them?
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Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

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