Godlike Forsight

[BigBallinStalin]

Charitable organizations are a part of the free market, so no qualms there.
You can advocate as much as you want, and that's fine so long as you don't go blundering into it with ill-gotten goods (tax revenue).


You're concerned about starvation. What best alleviates poverty in the long-run? When people become wealthier, less of them starve, so what is the "origin of wealth"?

Again, for a Christian: "who gives a f*ck about the origin of wealth. Gods children are starving, lets find a proper way to feed them."

Its not a direct quote.

Also, I never mentioned anything about taxing people to contribute. The entire point was that individuals that followed Christ, make decisions every day, that to varying degrees, ignore Christs children suffering and starving. Hell, if Christs followers actually took his teachings to heart, the government wouldnt have to go in to save them, because Gods work would already be done.

The reason governments get involved is, pretty much because people are selfish, and they do fail, and instead of making the correct choice, they give into greed, and let kids die for the fabulous window dressing. Essentially, the government insures you dont spend it all on window dressings and at least saves a few of the kids, in theory anyways...but the main point is, the hypocricy of the religious, not what should be done about the poor.

One thing is for sure, He absolutely gave us plenty of resources to take care of those kids, so if He did happen to exist, there would certainly be some splaining to do.

The origin of wealth matters because as people get wealthier they get to enjoy higher standards of living (life expectancy, education, blahb lah blah, oh and not starving to death).

That's all. As for the rest, I don't feel knowledgeable enough to comment about markets and Christian doctrine (which was why I somewhat humorously rewrote the words of Jesus Christ earlier).

Much to TGD's glee, I haven't read the following books/articles (cuz I don't care enough), but if you or anyone is interested, then....

these are about Christianity and the Market:

The Pope on 'Love in Truth'
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1247181 ... torialPage

Caveat Venalicium Libertas
http://www.financialpost.com/opinion/co ... 3cc8747c05

Chafuen, Alejandro A. Faith and Liberty: The Economic Thought of the Late Scholastics.

Woods, Thomas E. Jr. The Church and the Market: A Catholic Defense of the Free Economy


Also, there was the School of Salamanca, which tied in Christianity with free markets:

http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/schools/s ... htm#molina
http://www.acton.org/publicat/randl/article.php?id=474
http://www.quebecoislibre.org/981219-3.htm (in French)
http://www.mises.org/juandemariana.asp
http://www.mises.org/blogdetail.asp?control=1244
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/howell1.html

School of Salamanca?

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[/]

Nature in itself is a system where living creatures take each other’s lives in cycles. If God made it so upon design then it doesn't make sense not to run it as such. I believe such as system can be said to be a fair ultimate goodness from a “King of Kings” perspective.

If you were the king of a country, are you a “good” king if you deplete the kingdom’s treasury to make the people happy, rather than managing by making the people live within their means, teaching them, guiding them, and ultimately allowing the country to overcome their problems?
If you have a biosphere, is there more meaning to keep a balance of life and death, or to shower the jar with slices of bread every time the food dwindles, until they overpopulate and the bodies of the insects are stacked to the top of the jar?
If a hardworking millionaire showers their daughter with gifts to their every whim, never teaching them to strive for a goal, will that child ever grow up to meet the image of their parent?
If we choose to view existence on a human-centric or more accurately self-centric morality, perhaps God is “evil” to us, but that does not mean God does not love all. God may love all life; as life in general. Just as one may love ants, but not make their entire ant-farm to specifically accommodate the individual lives of Ant #1 through Ant #989745.

Happiness, pain, sadness, empathy, anger; all of these things are just illusions programmed into us to make life have the ability to work in a way that existed long before human reason, a way for animals and our ancestors to know what is best for themselves to allow life to progress and learn naturally. If we were capable of making factory robots that could introspect, they would see that a robot that breaks the progress is disposed of, this would be “evil” to them, and perhaps the human-gods would be “evil” too for making a world where robots can be disposed of for their flaws. However this is a “good” act for humans or robots in the end, because it is a system that allows for both to improve upon the greater design.

Over time life has been born, divided, adapted, died, and ultimately evolved. God could have favored any one of these branches in the uncountable family tree of life, but what is, is. We live in a world where each walnut might become a great tree, and each child might become a hero to advance humanity, at the same time, walnuts can die to become food for humans, and humans can die to become food for walnut trees; depending on the lessons we choose not to heed from life.

TL;DR: God is a dick to us because God values the ultimate advancement and sustainability of working life rather than individual life.

[JJM]

Suppose you know that if your friend enters the convenience store, in about 10 minutes, he'll be murdered by a robber.
All you have to do is say, "Hey, let's go to the other convenience store."

You then saved your friend's life. Pat yourself on the back.



Since God is allegedly omniscient, then he has the ability to prevent many unnecessary deaths. Yet, he doesn't intervene. He simply lets many people unnecessarily die.

Is this negligent?
What kind of dickhead lets someone die like that?
"Sorry, dude, but you know, I can't directly intervene cuz free will--except for all those times when I intervened about 2000 years ago."


Doesn't make any sense at all.

I must start off by saying wow. Less than 12 hours and 7 pages already. As a Christian I believe that God has given people free will, and humans do things such as murders God dose not control these actions.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

GOD OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T EXIST CUZ IF HE DID THEN HE WOULD DEFINITELY ACT ACCORDING TO THE MORALS OF SOME RANDOM ASS SPECIES ON A RANDOM ASS PLANET

NO NOT THE MORALS WE HAD 100 YEARS AGO

OH AND NOT THE ONES WE'LL HAVE IN 100 YEARS

ONLY THE ONES AT THIS MINUSCULE TIME IN THIS MINUSCULE PLACE

GOD ISN'T AS ETHICALLY FICKLE AS WE ARE LOL WHAT AN ASSHOLE

for a thread with "forsight" (sic) in the title, this thread is ridiculously short-sighted

funkyterrance got it right in the very first reply and it's a damn shame that you people have been able to argue one page an hour over something that should be patently obvious

You mean the morals that he/she/it supposedly handed down to humans in various texts as the word of god(s) to be followed upon threat of eternal damnation? So he/she/it is a "do as I say, not as I do" type of god. Still a dick.

-TG

[thegreekdog]

2dimes, tvor, TGD, and a few others--I imagine--represent the majority of Christians and other theists, and they have the right mindset when it comes to religion. This is why I'm not too particularly concerned about religion itself and about most of its adherents. When Hawkins stated (in that youtube video Haggis(?) posted somewhere far far away) 'religion is evil because X, Y, and Z," I disagree because his interpretation of religion does not sync with the majority's--and more importantly the consequences of religious followers are on net positive.

I'm not certain I could be on sort of a sugar rush or something here too...

I think I've expressed it and Tzor and TGD will possibly back this up. I'm nearly Anti Christian Religion and have written on this forum my distaste specifically toward the Roman Catholic Church.

Hypocritically I do have some affection at least for their online personnas toward both those posters while understanding they are proud members of that religion. In fact I have respected some of the things they both have posted to defend it.

I have met good people that are some level of believer belonging to many religions. This rabbit hole is getting too deep here.

Religion to me is like minded persons getting together to share time and thoughts. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it can be very bad.

An athiest looking out for number one is just doing what is arguably somewhat natural. Self preservation.I find it more offensive when it is a person that claims to follow Christ that does a bad thing. I'm sure I do that too though.

Conversly there is a certain beauty in a person that questions or can't believe there is a God, choosing the right thing just because they know it's the right thing. It's more to their credit than doing it because, "I better so I don't get smote."

Ironically, or whatever, I have a rather distinct dislike for most other Christian religions (generally) and certain Christians who preach a whole lot and don't really do anything substantive with their lives (to practice what they preach). This extends to Catholics as well.

But no one is perfect. No religion is perfect. No atheist or agnostic is perfect. I'm going to make decisions that are selfish and kids in Africa are going to starve. I'm going to make decisions that are not selfish and some high school kid in Philadelphia is going to get into college. Neither of those things have anything to do with religion in that anyone can do both of those things with or without religion. Religion motivates me to do good things, but not in a "oh no, I'll be smoted" kind of way. I don't give money to charity because I want to get into heaven. I don't refrain from murder because it's a commandmant. I disobey my parents regularly. I covet things my neighbors have. If my primary concern was to attain heaven, why would I do or not do those things?

I'm Catholic for a bunch of different reasons. I was raised Catholic. I enjoy mass and it makes me feel better to attend and to pray generally. I think the Catholic Church does some horrible things, but it does some good things too (just like any other organization). I don't like when the church preaches down to people, especially about things where turning the other cheek might be a good idea, but I can't change that thinking by leaving and what the Catholic church says does not cause me to run my life a certain way in all cases.

In any event, all religions have bad guys and good guys and do good things and bad things. But all groups of people, all societies, have bad guys and good guys and do good things and bad things. I'm a citizen of the United States; this country has done some fucked up shit but I still support it. I'm an attorney, which houses some of the most vile scum and villainy, but I'm not leaving the profession. I'm a libertarian, although it's just a collection of washed-up Republicans and stoners.

[BigBallinStalin]

Suppose you know that if your friend enters the convenience store, in about 10 minutes, he'll be murdered by a robber.
All you have to do is say, "Hey, let's go to the other convenience store."

You then saved your friend's life. Pat yourself on the back.



Since God is allegedly omniscient, then he has the ability to prevent many unnecessary deaths. Yet, he doesn't intervene. He simply lets many people unnecessarily die.

Is this negligent?
What kind of dickhead lets someone die like that?
"Sorry, dude, but you know, I can't directly intervene cuz free will--except for all those times when I intervened about 2000 years ago."


Doesn't make any sense at all.

I must start off by saying wow. Less than 12 hours and 7 pages already. As a Christian I believe that God has given people free will, and humans do things such as murders God dose not control these actions.

[BigBallinStalin]

Ironically, or whatever, I have a rather distinct dislike for most other Christian religions (generally) and certain Christians who preach a whole lot and don't really do anything substantive with their lives (to practice what they preach). This extends to Catholics as well.

But no one is perfect. No religion is perfect. No atheist or agnostic is perfect. I'm going to make decisions that are selfish and kids in Africa are going to starve. I'm going to make decisions that are not selfish and some high school kid in Philadelphia is going to get into college. Neither of those things have anything to do with religion in that anyone can do both of those things with or without religion. Religion motivates me to do good things, but not in a "oh no, I'll be smoted" kind of way. I don't give money to charity because I want to get into heaven. I don't refrain from murder because it's a commandmant. I disobey my parents regularly. I covet things my neighbors have. If my primary concern was to attain heaven, why would I do or not do those things?

I'm Catholic for a bunch of different reasons. I was raised Catholic. I enjoy mass and it makes me feel better to attend and to pray generally. I think the Catholic Church does some horrible things, but it does some good things too (just like any other organization). I don't like when the church preaches down to people, especially about things where turning the other cheek might be a good idea, but I can't change that thinking by leaving and what the Catholic church says does not cause me to run my life a certain way in all cases.

In any event, all religions have bad guys and good guys and do good things and bad things. But all groups of people, all societies, have bad guys and good guys and do good things and bad things. I'm a citizen of the United States; this country has done some fucked up shit but I still support it. I'm an attorney, which houses some of the most vile scum and villainy, but I'm not leaving the profession. I'm a libertarian, although it's just a collection of washed-up Republicans and stoners.

(RE: bold, f*ck YEAH, free markets in religion. Get you some!)

[chang50]

Suppose you know that if your friend enters the convenience store, in about 10 minutes, he'll be murdered by a robber.
All you have to do is say, "Hey, let's go to the other convenience store."

You then saved your friend's life. Pat yourself on the back.



Since God is allegedly omniscient, then he has the ability to prevent many unnecessary deaths. Yet, he doesn't intervene. He simply lets many people unnecessarily die.

Is this negligent?
What kind of dickhead lets someone die like that?
"Sorry, dude, but you know, I can't directly intervene cuz free will--except for all those times when I intervened about 2000 years ago."


Doesn't make any sense at all.

I must start off by saying wow. Less than 12 hours and 7 pages already. As a Christian I believe that God has given people free will, and humans do things such as murders God dose not control these actions.

I'm curious,would you have commented if there had been 7 pro Christian pages?So we have free will 'cos the boss says so?

[john9blue]

You mean the morals that he/she/it supposedly handed down to humans in various texts as the word of god(s) to be followed upon threat of eternal damnation? So he/she/it is a "do as I say, not as I do" type of god. Still a dick.

-TG

oh, were we taking about christianity? i thought we were talking about god. my bad bro.

[crispybits]

GOD OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T EXIST CUZ IF HE DID THEN HE WOULD DEFINITELY ACT ACCORDING TO THE MORALS OF SOME RANDOM ASS SPECIES ON A RANDOM ASS PLANET

NO NOT THE MORALS WE HAD 100 YEARS AGO

OH AND NOT THE ONES WE'LL HAVE IN 100 YEARS

ONLY THE ONES AT THIS MINUSCULE TIME IN THIS MINUSCULE PLACE

GOD ISN'T AS ETHICALLY FICKLE AS WE ARE LOL WHAT AN ASSHOLE

for a thread with "forsight" (sic) in the title, this thread is ridiculously short-sighted

funkyterrance got it right in the very first reply and it's a damn shame that you people have been able to argue one page an hour over something that should be patently obvious

GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS AND WE CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND HIS MOTIVES OR INTENTIONS!!!

I HAVE A BIBLE HERE THAT EXPLAINS ALL ABOUT GOD'S MOTIVES AND INTENTIONS AND IS THE TRUE WAY TO KNOW HIM!!!!

I ALSO POST IN CAPS BECAUSE I THINK IT MAKES MY POINTLESS POINT MORE POINTY!!!

[john9blue]

GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS AND WE CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND HIS MOTIVES OR INTENTIONS!!!

I HAVE A BIBLE HERE THAT EXPLAINS ALL ABOUT GOD'S MOTIVES AND INTENTIONS AND IS THE TRUE WAY TO KNOW HIM!!!!

I ALSO POST IN CAPS BECAUSE I THINK IT MAKES MY POINTLESS POINT MORE POINTY!!!

oh, were we taking about christianity? i thought we were talking about god. my bad bro.

[2dimes]

I'm Catholic for a bunch of different reasons. I was raised Catholic. I enjoy mass and it makes me feel better to attend and to pray generally. I think the Catholic Church does some horrible things, but it does some good things too (just like any other organization). I don't like when the church preaches down to people, especially about things where turning the other cheek might be a good idea, but I can't change that thinking by leaving and what the Catholic church says does not cause me to run my life a certain way in all cases.

Truth is I've met some really great people that are devout Catholics. Even ~gasp~ a couple of priests that seemed ok. It's a good thing too because it's difficult for me to not get angry at what the leadership has done. They're not the only ones but they are the biggest and best.

I didn't mind getting lumped in with you and the cat lady. If anything it was unfair of BBS to bring you two down by comparing us.

In any event, all religions have bad guys and good guys and do good things and bad things. But all groups of people, all societies, have bad guys and good guys and do good things and bad things. I'm a citizen of the United States; this country has done some fucked up shit but I still support it. I'm an attorney, which houses some of the most vile scum and villainy, but I'm not leaving the profession. I'm a libertarian, although it's just a collection of washed-up Republicans and stoners.

Pretty reasonable in my opinion.

In a small way I admire you trying to be or bring some good to those groups.

[crispybits]

GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS AND WE CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND HIS MOTIVES OR INTENTIONS!!!

I HAVE A BIBLE HERE THAT EXPLAINS ALL ABOUT GOD'S MOTIVES AND INTENTIONS AND IS THE TRUE WAY TO KNOW HIM!!!!

I ALSO POST IN CAPS BECAUSE I THINK IT MAKES MY POINTLESS POINT MORE POINTY!!!

oh, were we taking about christianity? i thought we were talking about god. my bad bro.

Nah you can insert any religious text into there, just my impression from other posts you've made is that you're christian so I used the christian one. I could just as easily have said Torah or Qu'ran or whatever.

[AAFitz]

I ALSO POST IN CAPS BECAUSE I THINK IT MAKES MY POINTLESS POINT MORE POINTY!!!

That is a fucked up fetish you have there.

[crispybits]

POINTY

POINTY

POINTY!!!

mmmmm *fap fap fap*

[TA1LGUNN3R]

You mean the morals that he/she/it supposedly handed down to humans in various texts as the word of god(s) to be followed upon threat of eternal damnation? So he/she/it is a "do as I say, not as I do" type of god. Still a dick.

-TG

oh, were we taking about christianity? i thought we were talking about god. my bad bro.

Show me a case of religion where the morals aren't given to humans by the divine, by some medium or another, as a model of how to conduct oneself. Also show that in these same religions there aren't consequences for transgressions of these morals.

-TG