Why are you a Feminist?

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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Neoteny on Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:31 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:One contention: This is probably not applicable to feminism, but in general it can be beneficial to allow people to state their opinions--however uninformed, so that one can have the opportunity to correct them, clarify them, allow the uninformed to correct them through a Socratic approach, or perhaps even learn from them.

However, it depends on the context. With different people, we have different discussions which vary in profit and relevant knowledge. Therefore, I can understand the frustration in critiquing the US export of democracy when there's that guy in the room who keeps screaming, "UHMERICA!!," while spilling his beer on everyone.


That is exactly the point. Tiger Beatdown is probably not the preeminent source of educating men about problems women face. It also does not claim to be, nor necessarily aim to be such (though it has certainly helped me). And your contention very much is applicable to feminism, plus I feel that contention is what Funky is trying to prove. But I don't think anybody here (maybe "think" is too weak a word since the only person to speak for in this situation is myself) is saying that is not the case. There are plenty of places where these discussions are happening (the atheist blogosphere is a community that is doing it now), and they should be happening. But just like dudes can retreat to 4chan or a company boardroom to get away from female interference, women need a place to simmer and cogitate and whatever too. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Well, except the boardroom quip.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:What's your position about feminism? And what's your main contention against me or any criticism against feminism?


My position about feminism is that it is awesome. My main contention against you requires that we go back to this post:

BigBallinStalin wrote:
kentington wrote:
Gillipig wrote:I was thinking more like "Realist".


That just assures them that you are a total male chauvinist. :)
[ramble]
Honestly, I think feminism has gone too far and is now hurting its own cause. I agree women should have equal rights and be able to vote. I agree that they should have an equal chance at being hired. But I have seen feminist women verbally attack other women who didn't work but stayed home and raised kids. These outspoken ones may be a minority, but from any feminist I have met it seems to be a constant. Those that I have met also tend to hate men or hold them in a negative light. This creates a poor image for those of us who aren't "in" with them and makes us lean away from them.
[/ramble]


Yeah, pretty much sums up feminism.


Agreeing with Kentington there gets you lumped into the same boat of people making generalizations about groups based on apparently limited knowledge of the group, which is pretty ironic considering the content with which agreement is being found. You got bonus points indicating your ignorance when you were talking about the "radical positions" of first- and second-wave feminism in a negative light. They both had extreme elements, but when you consider that "radical" in the context of wave one is literally the main foci of sufferage, property rights, education, etc, you come across as a little silly there. They weren't even growing their body hair out or anything grody like that. And when you consider the main goals of second-wave feminism, as opposed to the convenient minorities I'm sure you'll use to justify your sweeping opinions, I'm curious as to what was so radical. Those few women who wanted to kill all the men?


Yeah, I don't blame you for lumping me into that boat because I was too lazy to clarify my stance.

The underlined's a good point. My contention, and I wasn't clear enough, is that I don't see the usefulness of that radical approach in today's times and in such frequency as it was in the past. Granted, some events today could use a helping of that radical approach--but not as frequently as it was back then, and perhaps not at all, depending on what we mean by radical.

'Radical' in this instance can involve badgering people into agreeing with you or joining their movement, while neglecting their opportunity costs. It can also let passions rule over reason, deny others a more intelligible discourse, and promote well-intended policies which lead to poor outcomes.

I don't favor radicalism in this sense because it's similar to the radicalism of violent, Islamic fundamentalists, the perpetuation of terrorism, the US' reaction, and the subsequent reciprocity of violence/terrorism by both parties. All of this is underpinned by radical notions of social change which can lead to these undesirable outcomes. I'm not saying that in all cases radicalism creates terrorism for all political movements, but it is a breeding ground which can lower the perceived costs of violence. Of course, there's the question of better substitutes than radical positions, whether or not they produce on average better outcomes thus are worth the costs, and yada yada yada.


That's cool. There will always be a spectrum of feelings on proper approaches and opportunity costs and whatever.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Neoteny on Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:44 pm

Lol check it out.

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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:10 pm

Neoteny wrote:Lol check it out.



Who's that guy? Just kidding, you guys are alright.

Neoteny wrote:Wow, guys. It took you 9 pages to come up with that one. I'm not sure if I should credit your restraint or your intelligence. Also important to note, the glossing over of the following statements, on top of the fact that neither of those stances are the stance I'm taking:


65% restraint; 35% agnosticism
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:20 pm

thegreekdog wrote:All that being said (and quoted), I'm indifferent. If Congress wants to pass a law that calls for equal pay, that's fine by me. Go ahead. I'm pretty confident it will be an ineffective law, at best. If feminists want to rail against the lack of women in Congress or the White House, go ahead. Find some quality candidates to run in the next election. I'll vote for the best candidate, not the best female candidate. And people who vote for a candidate because he's a man are being not only chauvinist, but stupid. If I told you Ms. Candidate would do a better job than Mr. Candidate and you vote for Mr. Candidate, you're stupid. If I told you that Ms. Employee had a better resume than Mr. Employee and you hired Mr. Employee, you're stupid.
[/quote]

The problem with such a law is much more basic and very similar to any other affirmative action rule.. plain and simply the idea that hiring, education, other opportunities are alloted in a "fair" manner is just bogus.

It is worth talking about in a general sense, as a society and as a means of challenging ourselves, but the government cannot truly mandate real fairness, it can only set the extreme boundaries.

In that regard, I think female affirmative action has taken less time in some ways becuase most men tend to know at least a few women ;) . Its pretty hard to pretend that they are all an inferior species when you are surrounded by them. Except.. well, that is essentially what men have done for generations. What changed that was not any change in women, it was a change in society that allows women to have control over their reproduction.

You will note that most of the debates about women's equity today tend to wind up discussing children and childbirth.

Also, its not cooincidental that the same men who think women are less capable also want women to stay home, take care of the kids, generally have never done much of that themselves and often just are pretty poor at understanding other human beings in general. Its a lot easier to just know your role, fall back into a set pattern than to have to think and deal with a more full range of choices.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:59 pm

Neoteny wrote:Perhaps someday when I have a job where I can sit at a computer all day and taunt people instead of working multiple jobs and maintaining some semblance of a social and family life, I will be able to answer your every call, Funky. Until then, calm your shit.

Funkyterrance wrote:
Neoteny wrote:You already have a leg up on, say, john9blue, whose views on most, if not all, topics is unnecessary and undesired.

This is really an unfair statement. I happen to appreciate john9blue's views. He is severely outnumbered and that's just a matter of the demographics of this site but implying that he's not a welcome contributor because he voices a minority group is wrong. Where do you get off exactly?


Johnny is perfectly capable of having a rational discussion. I just haven't seen it happen in several years. He's a big boy; he can take care of himself, pops.

Funkyterrance wrote:
Neoteny wrote:When Sady says "shut the f*ck up", she's not actually going for closing off the conversation. She's responding forcefully, and with some comedy, to the overwhelming privilege that men feel they should be allowed to be in everything, including, apparently, a place designated as a safe space for women to talk about feminism, and other things, without having to put up with the same shit they have to everywhere else. This is an issue that Americans in particular have, thinking that the right to free speech trumps everyone else's right to not have to listen to you, but it's an international problem as well. If a woman wants a man's opinion on feminism, she can go to reddit, or a news website, or outside her door. If she wants to laugh a bit and work on serious shit with other women without having to explain to a dude for the umpteenth time how "man-hating" is a phrase (and has been for decades) used to ridicule and intellectually demote the feminist movement as a whole despite the fact that it certainly does apply to some feminists, she can go to Tiger Beatdown.

So you're defending the feminist equivalent to a men's club where guys sit around playing golf, smoking cigars and telling sexist jokes? Or a construction site where the unsaid rule is "no women with equal rights allowed". These are great places for chauvinistic men to feel comfortable in their own skins. If any environment is going to encourage the "man hater" mentality, it's a place where your average uninformed man or any man who dares disagree with the general consensus, is not welcome.


Well, yes, sort of. For once, you've almost got it right. I'm defending feminists who want to have the rare space where clueless men aren't allowed. It's not really hurting you, is it? Or the movement? I'm sure you didn't even know it existed until I wanted to steal her joke to make a point (which, I'm not certain you've gotten yet. The point was that maybe uneducated individuals should not expect to be taken seriously in circles where a little education is expected). It's a place where women, and men who give a shit, can talk about their experiences with patriarchy, rape culture, abortion, queer rights, intersectionality, etc. and not worry about random internet dudes calling them man-haters, sluts, liberals, PC, or whatever. If you, for some reason, aren't ok with that, Freddy has a blog that might interest you. And, to be honest, it's not terrible. But he, just like you, seems to miss the point that TB is not a place for any swinging dick to parrot their misconceptions about feminism. It's not a place that sets out to educate ignorant men. There are already places for that. Tiger Beatdown has a very specific set of goals. Where do you get off talking about whether those goals are appropriate, and whether they is effective in their own right or within a broader movement, particularly when you so obviously have no idea what they're about, or why they're even that way? Is it because you have a penis? Is that what makes you feel like your opinions are so important? Is it because you are so well-versed about feminism? Why, Funky?

Funkyterrance wrote:
Neoteny wrote:Sady doesn't want all men to shut up about feminism. She appreciates plenty of men with feminist perspectives.

In other words, she's ok discussing perspectives with people who agree with her. What a breakthrough! Don't hurt yourself, Sady.


She discusses perspectives in a variety of places with a variety of people. She actually doesn't post much on TB anymore. But you obviously don't know what you, or I, for that matter, are talking about, so I wouldn't expect you to know these things. Look, here she is doing a thing in Salon about 30 Rock. I bet she's just been waiting for you to comment on that one.

Funkyterrance wrote:
Neoteny wrote:Regarding Sady. I think the hardest part is that you need to enjoy that type of humor or be more familiar with her tone.

Maybe. But you posted her quotes, therefore taking responsibility for their literal interpretation. Anyway, we are getting her/your tone just fine within your posts I think.


That's completely bizarre. Not everyone is as boringly literal as you, FT. I bear no such responsibility, and I urge you to maybe divest yours every now and then. I feel like you would tell the Bible that it's responsible for creationists.

Funkyterrance wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I'm just wondering how Neo is going to explain feminism when he's not a woman and has painted himself into a corner of "if you're not a woman you cannot understand feminism."

Oh yeah, that. But isn't it more like "If you're not a feminist you can't understand feminism."? I'm not sure which is a tougher stance to defend.


Wow, guys. It took you 9 pages to come up with that one. I'm not sure if I should credit your restraint or your intelligence.


Well, it appears as though your composure left the building the moment I objected to your trashing of john9blue whom I consider to contribute a much needed side to many discussions. I'm well aware that my bro john9blue is capable of defending himself but it tends to be taken more seriously when someone else points out an injustice.

I hope at any rate you feel better in your attempt to stomp out any credibility I might have regarding the subject of feminism. And as far as "calming shit", who's the one taking several potshots over the course of a post including my tendency to sometimes post while at work? I mean really, is that necessary lol? Ad Hominem to the max, dude.
Really though, I think you may be preaching to the coir about a lot of this stuff but it seems as though you'd like to remain just a liiiitle bit more hip to feminism than everyone else
and being cryptic about the whole thing you believe is maintaining this status. Either that or you're just as clueless about feminism as the rest of us and your stfu'ing has served you well thus far with feminists so you're just rolling with it.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Lil_SlimShady on Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:18 pm

I'm a feminist because I am a dude and feminism allows me to be a lazy cracker and entitles me not to put in as much romantic efforts into my relationship. I would make a horrible knight in shiny armor and would probably die a virgin.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Neoteny on Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:10 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
Neoteny wrote:Perhaps someday when I have a job where I can sit at a computer all day and taunt people instead of working multiple jobs and maintaining some semblance of a social and family life, I will be able to answer your every call, Funky. Until then, calm your shit.

Funkyterrance wrote:
Neoteny wrote:You already have a leg up on, say, john9blue, whose views on most, if not all, topics is unnecessary and undesired.

This is really an unfair statement. I happen to appreciate john9blue's views. He is severely outnumbered and that's just a matter of the demographics of this site but implying that he's not a welcome contributor because he voices a minority group is wrong. Where do you get off exactly?


Johnny is perfectly capable of having a rational discussion. I just haven't seen it happen in several years. He's a big boy; he can take care of himself, pops.

Funkyterrance wrote:
Neoteny wrote:When Sady says "shut the f*ck up", she's not actually going for closing off the conversation. She's responding forcefully, and with some comedy, to the overwhelming privilege that men feel they should be allowed to be in everything, including, apparently, a place designated as a safe space for women to talk about feminism, and other things, without having to put up with the same shit they have to everywhere else. This is an issue that Americans in particular have, thinking that the right to free speech trumps everyone else's right to not have to listen to you, but it's an international problem as well. If a woman wants a man's opinion on feminism, she can go to reddit, or a news website, or outside her door. If she wants to laugh a bit and work on serious shit with other women without having to explain to a dude for the umpteenth time how "man-hating" is a phrase (and has been for decades) used to ridicule and intellectually demote the feminist movement as a whole despite the fact that it certainly does apply to some feminists, she can go to Tiger Beatdown.

So you're defending the feminist equivalent to a men's club where guys sit around playing golf, smoking cigars and telling sexist jokes? Or a construction site where the unsaid rule is "no women with equal rights allowed". These are great places for chauvinistic men to feel comfortable in their own skins. If any environment is going to encourage the "man hater" mentality, it's a place where your average uninformed man or any man who dares disagree with the general consensus, is not welcome.


Well, yes, sort of. For once, you've almost got it right. I'm defending feminists who want to have the rare space where clueless men aren't allowed. It's not really hurting you, is it? Or the movement? I'm sure you didn't even know it existed until I wanted to steal her joke to make a point (which, I'm not certain you've gotten yet. The point was that maybe uneducated individuals should not expect to be taken seriously in circles where a little education is expected). It's a place where women, and men who give a shit, can talk about their experiences with patriarchy, rape culture, abortion, queer rights, intersectionality, etc. and not worry about random internet dudes calling them man-haters, sluts, liberals, PC, or whatever. If you, for some reason, aren't ok with that, Freddy has a blog that might interest you. And, to be honest, it's not terrible. But he, just like you, seems to miss the point that TB is not a place for any swinging dick to parrot their misconceptions about feminism. It's not a place that sets out to educate ignorant men. There are already places for that. Tiger Beatdown has a very specific set of goals. Where do you get off talking about whether those goals are appropriate, and whether they is effective in their own right or within a broader movement, particularly when you so obviously have no idea what they're about, or why they're even that way? Is it because you have a penis? Is that what makes you feel like your opinions are so important? Is it because you are so well-versed about feminism? Why, Funky?

Funkyterrance wrote:
Neoteny wrote:Sady doesn't want all men to shut up about feminism. She appreciates plenty of men with feminist perspectives.

In other words, she's ok discussing perspectives with people who agree with her. What a breakthrough! Don't hurt yourself, Sady.


She discusses perspectives in a variety of places with a variety of people. She actually doesn't post much on TB anymore. But you obviously don't know what you, or I, for that matter, are talking about, so I wouldn't expect you to know these things. Look, here she is doing a thing in Salon about 30 Rock. I bet she's just been waiting for you to comment on that one.

Funkyterrance wrote:
Neoteny wrote:Regarding Sady. I think the hardest part is that you need to enjoy that type of humor or be more familiar with her tone.

Maybe. But you posted her quotes, therefore taking responsibility for their literal interpretation. Anyway, we are getting her/your tone just fine within your posts I think.


That's completely bizarre. Not everyone is as boringly literal as you, FT. I bear no such responsibility, and I urge you to maybe divest yours every now and then. I feel like you would tell the Bible that it's responsible for creationists.

Funkyterrance wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I'm just wondering how Neo is going to explain feminism when he's not a woman and has painted himself into a corner of "if you're not a woman you cannot understand feminism."

Oh yeah, that. But isn't it more like "If you're not a feminist you can't understand feminism."? I'm not sure which is a tougher stance to defend.


Wow, guys. It took you 9 pages to come up with that one. I'm not sure if I should credit your restraint or your intelligence.


Well, it appears as though your composure left the building the moment I objected to your trashing of john9blue whom I consider to contribute a much needed side to many discussions. I'm well aware that my bro john9blue is capable of defending himself but it tends to be taken more seriously when someone else points out an injustice.

I hope at any rate you feel better in your attempt to stomp out any credibility I might have regarding the subject of feminism. And as far as "calming shit", who's the one taking several potshots over the course of a post including my tendency to sometimes post while at work? I mean really, is that necessary lol? Ad Hominem to the max, dude.
Really though, I think you may be preaching to the coir about a lot of this stuff but it seems as though you'd like to remain just a liiiitle bit more hip to feminism than everyone else
and being cryptic about the whole thing you believe is maintaining this status. Either that or you're just as clueless about feminism as the rest of us and your stfu'ing has served you well thus far with feminists so you're just rolling with it.


Seriously. Are you new here?
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:03 pm

I can't find any fault with anything Neo said. Maybe you don't like the way he said something, but that doesn't make him wrong.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:09 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:I can't find any fault with anything Neo said. Maybe you don't like the way he said something, but that doesn't make him wrong.


That's pretty much my opinon of Neoteny's opinion. I think he's right, I just don't think he said it the best way.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Nola_Lifer on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:08 pm

I love the idea of the empowerment of women. Give them more money and better opportunity to jobs. I just wanna get one pregnant, stay home, cook food, do the laundry while she goes to work and makes the big bucks. :D
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Lil_SlimShady on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:29 pm

Nola_Lifer wrote:I love the idea of the empowerment of women. Give them more money and better opportunity to jobs. I just wanna get one pregnant, stay home, cook food, do the laundry while she goes to work and makes the big bucks. :D


Oh how different you and I are
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:55 pm

Neoteny wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:One contention: This is probably not applicable to feminism, but in general it can be beneficial to allow people to state their opinions--however uninformed, so that one can have the opportunity to correct them, clarify them, allow the uninformed to correct them through a Socratic approach, or perhaps even learn from them.

However, it depends on the context. With different people, we have different discussions which vary in profit and relevant knowledge. Therefore, I can understand the frustration in critiquing the US export of democracy when there's that guy in the room who keeps screaming, "UHMERICA!!," while spilling his beer on everyone.


That is exactly the point. Tiger Beatdown is probably not the preeminent source of educating men about problems women face. It also does not claim to be, nor necessarily aim to be such (though it has certainly helped me). And your contention very much is applicable to feminism, plus I feel that contention is what Funky is trying to prove. But I don't think anybody here (maybe "think" is too weak a word since the only person to speak for in this situation is myself) is saying that is not the case. There are plenty of places where these discussions are happening (the atheist blogosphere is a community that is doing it now), and they should be happening. But just like dudes can retreat to 4chan or a company boardroom to get away from female interference, women need a place to simmer and cogitate and whatever too. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Well, except the boardroom quip.
.



I used to sort of agree. Today, though, with the internet, people too often wind up talking to JUST those with whom they agree. There is no open dialogue. Thus you have millions educated in the wonderful ideas of young earth creationism, who are generally intelligent, but who have been taught so far from what is standard science that even trying to bring them back to understand why their ideas are wrong is a major feat. Similarly, there are more and more males who have just decided, essentially ""to H*ll with this feminims garbage...I am a MAN!" It really doesn't matter if its Promise Keepers promoting that the Bible tells men to "take charge of their families [for the good of their women of whom too much has been asked, among other niceties]" or a young punk who thinks its perfectly OK to put someone in "that slut's" drink [and she must be a slut if she is in his company...] and do whatever he wants or simply an executive who just "doesn't seem to find qualified women" or "the women who show up here just don't seem to 'fit' as well". The basic problem is that these people are giving themselves the right to judge and dictate a whole other group of people, in this case all women, based on their pre-concieved ideas. Unfortunately, too often these people can get into places of real power and act upon those beliefs in ways that truly harm others... in this case not just all women, but their children and families as well.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Neoteny on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:15 pm

This is not really an internet thing. People have always found echo chambers for their ideas. Facebook, for example, is a two way street as far as that goes. As long as there are places to have discussions, and those discussions are happening, then I don't mind a place that is specifically for rallying and venting, etc.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:27 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:I used to sort of agree. Today, though, with the internet, people too often wind up talking to JUST those with whom they agree. There is no open dialogue. Thus you have millions educated in the wonderful ideas of young earth creationism, who are generally intelligent, but who have been taught so far from what is standard science that even trying to bring them back to understand why their ideas are wrong is a major feat.

So you don't agree with the STFU angle?

PLAYER57832 wrote:Similarly, there are more and more males who have just decided, essentially ""to H*ll with this feminims garbage...I am a MAN!" It really doesn't matter if its Promise Keepers promoting that the Bible tells men to "take charge of their families [for the good of their women of whom too much has been asked, among other niceties]" or a young punk who thinks its perfectly OK to put someone in "that slut's" drink [and she must be a slut if she is in his company...] and do whatever he wants or simply an executive who just "doesn't seem to find qualified women" or "the women who show up here just don't seem to 'fit' as well". The basic problem is that these people are giving themselves the right to judge and dictate a whole other group of people, in this case all women, based on their pre-concieved ideas. Unfortunately, too often these people can get into places of real power and act upon those beliefs in ways that truly harm others... in this case not just all women, but their children and families as well.

So, would you consider any male capable of truly grasping feminism or do you feel there is a contradiction in the term "male feminist"? I mean, last I knew all males were to some degree subject to gravity and the resultant pendulation.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:25 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:I used to sort of agree. Today, though, with the internet, people too often wind up talking to JUST those with whom they agree. There is no open dialogue. Thus you have millions educated in the wonderful ideas of young earth creationism, who are generally intelligent, but who have been taught so far from what is standard science that even trying to bring them back to understand why their ideas are wrong is a major feat.

So you don't agree with the STFU angle?
What "angle"?

Funkyterrance wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Similarly, there are more and more males who have just decided, essentially ""to H*ll with this feminims garbage...I am a MAN!" It really doesn't matter if its Promise Keepers promoting that the Bible tells men to "take charge of their families [for the good of their women of whom too much has been asked, among other niceties]" or a young punk who thinks its perfectly OK to put someone in "that slut's" drink [and she must be a slut if she is in his company...] and do whatever he wants or simply an executive who just "doesn't seem to find qualified women" or "the women who show up here just don't seem to 'fit' as well". The basic problem is that these people are giving themselves the right to judge and dictate a whole other group of people, in this case all women, based on their pre-concieved ideas. Unfortunately, too often these people can get into places of real power and act upon those beliefs in ways that truly harm others... in this case not just all women, but their children and families as well.

So, would you consider any male capable of truly grasping feminism or do you feel there is a contradiction in the term "male feminist"? I mean, last I knew all males were to some degree subject to gravity and the resultant pendulation.

Only if you think the term "more and more" refers to all men... :roll:

Then again, I find in that above group "attack anyone who disagrees with me" is considered a reasonable approach, so ...


Seriously, just because women have made great strides, a lot of discrimination is no longer either legal or socially acceptable doesn't mean that women no longer have to work harder than men to get the same pay, don't have to put up with the "same old" idiocy in many formats. Fewer places, but its not gone.

The real question is how far should the government go in mandating such and how should it be mandated. The "easy" view is that once you get past the point of managers flat out refusing to hire women or blatently paying women less than men for the same job, legislation and courts have no place. The harder and trickier view is that all of that discrimination still happens to such a wide extent that many people, particularly men don't even recognize it. Its like the racist bit.. .just because folks aren't shouting "nigg*r" everywhere and burning crosses on people's lawns much doesn't mean racism is gone. There was along road between "no lynching" and "let everyone sit at the lunch counter together" and what we have today.. in fact, the irony is that right now, Mississippi is, in some ways a far less racist place than many areas up north. Its just that down south people are more willing to admit to being racist and not apologizing for it.. even though they will work with and deal with people of other colors. (they just don't invite them into their homes, etc.) I don't want to get into the racist discussion here, but I use it because most of those issues are pretty well understood and discussed. When it comes to women, it gets trickier because how men and women deal with each other is not just in professional terms, its very much personal. The personal and even religious get mixed in ways that don't happen with race.

Even the most "liberal" of men and women (all but a group I will call "extreme") fully acknowledge that men and women are fundamentally different. The issue is whether those differences translate into job and general abilities the way people think. The answer to that is mostly "no".

One example is swearing. Now I surely know plenty of women who "swear like a trucker" and plenty of men who don't. Still, the standard exists that is generally "more OK" for men to swear than women. That is changing, particularly in traditionally blue collar settings. However, having women in the workforce has more often caused the men to "watch their p's and q's" than women to start swearing. Is that necesarily a bad thing? Sure, some are uncomfortable with not being able to swear all over (and some frankly don't care), but isn't the idea of just being more respectful in the workplace.. ANY workplace a basically good idea? Men may point to "women" as a convenient target, but in truth its really more about cultural changes and workplace changes overall.

On a deeper level, many companies find that when men and women work together in teams, the fact that men and women approach things differently can be very much of a benefit. Some people will always want to see "different" as "bad", but the point is that is just not always true. Change is hard, but not necessarily bad.. and usually not avoidable.

Anyway, a long spiel to make the point, but the thing is that these answers only really come about when issues are discussed and openly. A lot of men, particularly younger men, very much do prefer to think of women as "just objects". They are bullies, sometimes even psychopaths (at the very extreme). I mean, on what planet does ANYONE think its OK to go have sex with a 12-13 year old girl just because they can? Granted, there is a LONG road between the kid on the baseball team who is making smart-alec remarks about girls in dugouts and that..... except, if left unchecked it might not be such a long road. Go up to teenagers, on the internet and there is no coach or dad listening in to give the boys "friendly advice" . Some of the bad behavior and attitudes have actually gotten far worse in recent years... even while the overall climate is perhaps better.

Add in the entirely different bit about "Promise Keepers" and the movement among various other religious groups to say that women following men is a religious issue and that forcing men to deal with women equally in the workplace, society is against religion... and it can very much seem to many women that the steps that were made are either stagnating or even going backwards.

I don't think shutting off discussion is the answer. Probably a better answer would be for women to "sneak in" to the sites and blast the idiots. (and vice-versa for the equivalent female sites). The real answer is to continue to include respect in our general educational curriculum. But, too often people equate "respect" with "following my religion" and when daddy is at home saying that the Bible says the girls cook and clean and the boys don't have too... well, that boy is not going to be very pleasant for women to work around when he grows up, but a public school is limited in what it can do.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby john9blue on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:46 am

hey neo, how do you feel about the men's rights movement? which parts of the movement do you think have merit?
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Neoteny on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:26 pm

It's not a movement I associate with. Most of the men I've come across that claim to be men's rights activists are hurting their cause more than helping it.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:30 pm

Neoteny wrote:It's not a movement I associate with. Most of the men I've come across that claim to be men's rights activists are hurting their cause more than helping it.

Any more, that is often the case for women identifying with a "women's movement".
(as opposed to women/men specifically fighting for specific issues, like equal pay in a particular field or such).
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Neoteny on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:32 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:It's not a movement I associate with. Most of the men I've come across that claim to be men's rights activists are hurting their cause more than helping it.

Any more, that is often the case for women identifying with a "women's movement".
(as opposed to women/men specifically fighting for specific issues, like equal pay in a particular field or such).


I was specifically referencing that.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Neoteny on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:08 pm

Here are some articles I came across that are relevant to some of our discussion.

On male feminism (bonus, Kurt Cobain):
http://jezebel.com/5985693/what-do-we-w ... -feminists

On the likeability of feminism:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... nges-world
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:04 pm

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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby majorheadache876 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:44 pm

Feminism is a grotesque fraud perpetrated on society by its governing elite. It is designed to weaken the American social and cultural fabric in order to introduce a friendly fascist New World Order. Its advocates are sanctimonious charlatans who have grown rich and powerful from it. They include a whole class of liars and moral cripples who work for the elite in various capacities: government, education and the media. These imposters ought to be exposed and ridiculed.

Women's oppression is a lie. Sex roles were never as rigid as feminists would have us believe. My mother had a successful business in the 1950's importing watchstraps from Switzerland. When my father's income increased, she was content to quit and concentrate on the children. Women were free to pursue careers if they wanted to. The difference was that their role as wife and mother was understood, and socially validated, as it should be.

Until Gloria Steinem and the CIA came along.




from article;
Gloria Steinem: How the CIA Used Feminism to Destabilize Society

March 18, 2002
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:00 pm

majorheadache876 wrote:Feminism is a grotesque fraud perpetrated on society by its governing elite.[citation needed] It is designed to weaken the American social and cultural fabric in order to introduce a friendly fascist New World Order.[citation needed] Its advocates are sanctimonious charlatans who have grown rich and powerful from it.[citation needed] They include a whole class of liars and moral cripples who work for the elite in various capacities: government, education and the media.[citation needed] These imposters ought to be exposed and ridiculed.

Women's oppression is a lie.[citation needed] Sex roles were never as rigid as feminists would have us believe.[citation needed] My mother had a successful business in the 1950's importing watchstraps from Switzerland. When my father's income increased, she was content to quit and concentrate on the children. Women were free to pursue careers if they wanted to.[citation needed] The difference was that their role as wife and mother was understood, and socially validated, as it should be.[citation needed]

Until Gloria Steinem and the CIA came along.




from article;
Gloria Steinem: How the CIA Used Feminism to Destabilize Society

March 18, 2002


Fixed.
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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:16 pm

majorheadache876 wrote:Feminism is a grotesque fraud perpetrated on society by its governing elite. It is designed to weaken the American social and cultural fabric in order to introduce a friendly fascist New World Order. Its advocates are sanctimonious charlatans who have grown rich and powerful from it. They include a whole class of liars and moral cripples who work for the elite in various capacities: government, education and the media. These imposters ought to be exposed and ridiculed.

Women's oppression is a lie. Sex roles were never as rigid as feminists would have us believe. My mother had a successful business in the 1950's importing watchstraps from Switzerland. When my father's income increased, she was content to quit and concentrate on the children. Women were free to pursue careers if they wanted to. The difference was that their role as wife and mother was understood, and socially validated, as it should be.

Until Gloria Steinem and the CIA came along.




from article;
Gloria Steinem: How the CIA Used Feminism to Destabilize Society

March 18, 2002


A video summary:




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Re: Why are you a Feminist?

Postby majorheadache876 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:56 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
majorheadache876 wrote:Feminism is a grotesque fraud perpetrated on society by its governing elite.[citation needed] It is designed to weaken the American social and cultural fabric in order to introduce a friendly fascist New World Order.[citation needed] Its advocates are sanctimonious charlatans who have grown rich and powerful from it.[citation needed] They include a whole class of liars and moral cripples who work for the elite in various capacities: government, education and the media.[citation needed] These imposters ought to be exposed and ridiculed.

Women's oppression is a lie.[citation needed] Sex roles were never as rigid as feminists would have us believe.[citation needed] My mother had a successful business in the 1950's importing watchstraps from Switzerland. When my father's income increased, she was content to quit and concentrate on the children. Women were free to pursue careers if they wanted to.[citation needed] The difference was that their role as wife and mother was understood, and socially validated, as it should be.[citation needed]

Until Gloria Steinem and the CIA came along.




from article;
Gloria Steinem: How the CIA Used Feminism to Destabilize Society

March 18, 2002


Fixed.



cute, but its an opinion not a fucking Harvard Doctoral paper
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