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Organizational Responsibility

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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:06 pm

Timminz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Let me use another example - There's probably more child abuse (ad protection of child abusers) occurring in public schools than in the Catholic Church. And that doesn't make what the Catholic Church is doing right, but there is not the same hue and cry from the general public about public school abuse. I'm trying to understand why the Catholic Church is different. Why are Catholic Church parishoners maligned for staying with the organization and attempting to change it when public school teachers, administrators and the general public not criticized for the same thing?


Why do you say this? (bolded) I'm not aware of any widespread allegations within public schools, such as there are regarding the Catholic church.


Also, I would say (from my view as a life-long atheist) that going without religion is far less onerous than going without education. Taken to the extreme, abolishing public education would probably have much larger negative consequences on society than abolishing the Catholic church would have.


This is such a weird discussion. Let's reframe it.

TGD: What do you want Catholic parishoners to do?
Timminz: Two choices: (1) leave the church; (2) stay in the church and condone child abuse and protection of child abusers.
TGD: Is there not a third choice: (3) stay in the church and force change
TGD: Furthermore, why do Catholics have to take the measure of leaving the church when there is a third option and the same choices are not provided to other organizations (e.g. Penn State, federal government, public education).
Timminz: I have not heard of public education child abuse and education is different than religion.

Anyway, here's the public education stuff (which I really don't want to get into since someone is going to say that I'm an apologist or deflecting or whatever, and I'm not):

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-215_162-1933687.html
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 1552.shtml

Bottom Line: 6% of priests have been accused of child abuse. 6% to 10% of public school teachers/employees have been accused of child abuse.

Can we get back to the discussion of whether there is an acceptable third option? If the third option is not acceptable, why isn't it acceptable (especially since it's already been effective)?

EDIT - I do understand that you (Timminz) are saying it would be less onerous for you to leave a church (as a life-long atheist). I get that.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby Timminz on Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:49 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I do understand that you (Timminz) are saying it would be less onerous for you to leave a church (as a life-long atheist). I get that.


Again, this isn't quite what I was saying. Would you rather your neighbours be educated or religious? Anyway, this is besides the point. You're right. You can try to change the problems. Perhaps I am too pessimistic.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:35 pm

Timminz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:I do understand that you (Timminz) are saying it would be less onerous for you to leave a church (as a life-long atheist). I get that.


Again, this isn't quite what I was saying. Would you rather your neighbours be educated or religious? Anyway, this is besides the point. You're right. You can try to change the problems. Perhaps I am too pessimistic.


If it's any consolation, I'm also pessimistic mostly because we won't see any results for 20 plus years (at least).
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:27 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:So, let's assume some small amount of your donation goes to the Vatican.

Would you say that the Vatican is responsible--to some degree--for the scandal?


Yes.


Ah, interesting, interesting. Mr. TGD, how about the Vatican's role in this scandal? Did the Vatican do all they reasonably could to prevent molestation? Or, was there foul play on their part?
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:31 pm

thegreekdog wrote:TGD: What do you want Catholic parishoners to do?
Timminz: Two choices: (1) leave the church; (2) stay in the church and condone child abuse and protection of child abusers.
TGD: Is there not a third choice: (3) stay in the church and force change
TGD: Furthermore, why do Catholics have to take the measure of leaving the church when there is a third option and the same choices are not provided to other organizations (e.g. Penn State, federal government, public education).
Timminz: I have not heard of public education child abuse and education is different than religion.

Can we get back to the discussion of whether there is an acceptable third option? If the third option is not acceptable, why isn't it acceptable (especially since it's already been effective)?


Why subsidize such an incompetent, and perhaps evil organization at Vatican? Why not split--to teach them a real lesson, instead of sending them your money?
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:37 am

warmonger1981 wrote:Basic personal responsibility. If you didn't report it you are just as guilty as being there. If the organization as a whole knew guilty as well. Case closed. Next.

Except, DID the orgainization, as a whole know that these individuals were guilty... and what did they "know" they were guilty of?

A big part of Christianity is forgiveness. Ideas about sex abuse have changed in ways you seem utterly unaware, both the tendency to disbelieve that otherwise "good" people could really do such things and to falsely accuse people by association or certain "attributes" (appearance, manner, etc.).

I believe that some of the individuals involved should have done much, much more. I hold the church structure responsible, because it is designed to be so heirarchical that lower down priests really have little to do with Vatican decisions. BUT.. that also means that information tends to not flow up freely. I don't in any way, shape or form believe that the Pope honestly knew what was really and truly happening. I believe he knew some things and made decisions based on extremely incorrect information. I feel that is ALSO why he has made such very incorrect decisions regarding women's health issues and a few other matters.

Most Roman Catholics that I have spoken with (and I live in a VERY Roman Catholic town with a lot of very old-school believers) think something along those lines.

For you to condemn Greekdog or even I (I send my youngest son to a Roman Catholic school) for what happened in parishes across the country in completely different jurisdictions is msiguded at best.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby warmonger1981 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:17 am

I was raised Catholic but I now do not support alot of what has happened throughout history of the church. I think on my own. If anyone knew guilty. Yeah cant condemn them all. My mamma once said. Birds of the same feather flock together. Thats why me personally don't cling to on religion . Sorry if you all take it person but thats not my problem .
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby warmonger1981 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:51 pm

forgiveness is another word for pardon. So for me to pardon pedophiles or mass murdered is not my call. Only God can do that as He knows whats truly in a persons heart. Evil will disguise itself in good. And if you or anyone else thinks forgiveness is automatically a part of being Christian then I assume you forgive Hitler. Sorry I cant. Murder is murder. Wrong is wrong and for an organization on so many levels to cover it up I would assume that there might be something inherently wrong with the organization as a whole. Thats why I done associate myself to one particular religion. I find flaws in them all.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:20 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:TGD: What do you want Catholic parishoners to do?
Timminz: Two choices: (1) leave the church; (2) stay in the church and condone child abuse and protection of child abusers.
TGD: Is there not a third choice: (3) stay in the church and force change
TGD: Furthermore, why do Catholics have to take the measure of leaving the church when there is a third option and the same choices are not provided to other organizations (e.g. Penn State, federal government, public education).
Timminz: I have not heard of public education child abuse and education is different than religion.

Can we get back to the discussion of whether there is an acceptable third option? If the third option is not acceptable, why isn't it acceptable (especially since it's already been effective)?


Why subsidize such an incompetent, and perhaps evil organization at Vatican? Why not split--to teach them a real lesson, instead of sending them your money?


Can we make, say, Jonesy, an Antipope, and have him challenge the authority of the Pope in Rome?


--Andy
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby sundance123 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:57 pm

Argument:
Things that are equal in these organisations -
Voters are to government, as church goers are to the Vatican, as students are to school/college.

Firstly the college analogy is wrong as nobody can remain a student to change a school.

Do non voters hold voters in high regard? No
Do non churchgoers hold churchgoers in high regard? No

I tend to vote for change, but I dont expect the respect of non voters for this. Should I campaign for change to get respect? I do argue with people who intend to vote - but again I dont expect a congratulations from a non voter for this.

That would be absurd.

You cannot expect to earn the respect of non churchgoers by going to church or talking about going to church.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:13 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:TGD: What do you want Catholic parishoners to do?
Timminz: Two choices: (1) leave the church; (2) stay in the church and condone child abuse and protection of child abusers.
TGD: Is there not a third choice: (3) stay in the church and force change
TGD: Furthermore, why do Catholics have to take the measure of leaving the church when there is a third option and the same choices are not provided to other organizations (e.g. Penn State, federal government, public education).
Timminz: I have not heard of public education child abuse and education is different than religion.

Can we get back to the discussion of whether there is an acceptable third option? If the third option is not acceptable, why isn't it acceptable (especially since it's already been effective)?


Why subsidize such an incompetent, and perhaps evil organization at Vatican? Why not split--to teach them a real lesson, instead of sending them your money?


Can we make, say, Jonesy, an Antipope, and have him challenge the authority of the Pope in Rome?


--Andy



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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:19 pm

How can one blame a voter for rationally choosing a president who will least likely increase the voter's taxes?

Given the costs (foreign wars), who's to say which is the right choice?

The possibility of less theft, yet more foreign war is hard to weigh...
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:34 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:forgiveness is another word for pardon.
No, but that is a common misunderstanding. Forgiveness is more about oneself, not other people. It is about looking beyond anger and vindictiveness, which have nothing truly to do with justice, and getting to where one can look for real solutions. Sometimes that does mean a pardon, but it can mean many other things depending on the situation. Forgiveness in the case of child abuse means not being held yourself to what was done by someone else. It means getting to the place where you can say you can go on and live day to day --live your real life, almost as if the abuse did not happen, but with the memory still. From that place, one can then better know what is and is not a good action. In many cases, keeping someone away from society -- i.e. jail, is warranted, but that is apart from the idea of forgiveness.

In THIS case you jumped right from "forgive' to "mindlessly ignoring what happened". That is not what I said at all. I also have a longer memory than many here seem to have, in that I remember some very prominent cases where false, not true accusations were made and harshly acted upon with disasterous impacts to all. In fact, there really is a lot more risk to most professionals of being falsely accused than of a child getting abused. Most of the training that teachers, scout leaders and others go through is as much about preventing situations where accusations can even be legitimately lodged. In scouts, for example. you just don't stay alone with any child not your own. (if your child is along, then it can be OK, though another adult is best in most cases).

There were two big errors here. First, in thinking that priests could "overcome" these urges... but remember, this is the same church that teaches one can "overcome" being homosexual (and that they still teach to a large extent). The second was in underestimating the extent of the harm to the kids involved and probably just plain underestimating what actually happened. The tendency to not believe people we know to otherwise be good people can do harm is pretty intense. Some of the monastic groups in southern California, while technically living within society, are actually pretty isolated. They will do mass, see parishoners, etc.. but don't "socialize" the way they seem to in some other areas. Its even harder to face criticism, because its like they were facing criticism of their own family member.


warmonger1981 wrote:So for me to pardon pedophiles or mass murdered is not my call. Only God can do that as He knows whats truly in a persons heart. Evil will disguise itself in good. And if you or anyone else thinks forgiveness is automatically a part of being Christian then I assume you forgive Hitler. Sorry I cant. Murder is murder. Wrong is wrong and for an organization on so many levels to cover it up I would assume that there might be something inherently wrong with the organization as a whole. Thats why I done associate myself to one particular religion. I find flaws in them all.

Godwins law and all that...

No, see the above. I utterly disagree with your idea of forgiveness. Also, as I noted above, you leap from "I think this, given what I know today" to "they must have known it all then and should be judged as if they did". In many case they really did not know what we do today.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:37 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:How can one blame a voter for rationally choosing a president who will least likely increase the voter's taxes?

Because low taxes are not the ultimate good. Ultimate good is doing the least harm to other people.
In fact, there is a quote about pursuing profit as if it were a measure of good.. something about roots to evil, ... and a few others about camels going through narrow passages, etc.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:45 pm

Timminz wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Let me use another example - There's probably more child abuse (ad protection of child abusers) occurring in public schools than in the Catholic Church. And that doesn't make what the Catholic Church is doing right, but there is not the same hue and cry from the general public about public school abuse. I'm trying to understand why the Catholic Church is different. Why are Catholic Church parishoners maligned for staying with the organization and attempting to change it when public school teachers, administrators and the general public not criticized for the same thing?


Why do you say this? (bolded) I'm not aware of any widespread allegations within public schools, such as there are regarding the Catholic church.

You would be wrong. And, what is public is only the tip of the iceberg.

BUT.. in all cases, the number of accusations and the number of actual cases are 2 different issues. Its an irony, but we have problems BOTH with too many adults being falsely accused AND too many real cases not being reported.

However, the practical matter is that we don't have one, single educational system. There is no "educational Vatican". There are many. The kinds of accusations to which you refer have been lodged against smaller districts. Similarly, accusations against Protestant groups tend to be more individualized becuase Protestant churches, while they have leadership, are not so hierarchical in the religious sense. The leadership tends to be more of an administration thing. (the Bishop is not really more sanctified than the average Pastor, has no more liturgical "power" than an average Pastor -- though he may have the power to cut off funding or decide to close parishes, etc for practical reasons).


Timminz wrote:Also, I would say (from my view as a life-long atheist) that going without religion is far less onerous than going without education. Taken to the extreme, abolishing public education would probably have much larger negative consequences on society than abolishing the Catholic church would have.

Only if you do not believe in final consequences.

That is, if you are outside the church, then sure, the church is purely superfulous. If you believe, then it is anything but. Then the paramount form of education, of all is the church's teachings. Thankfully, in today's society we are not forced to choose, we can have both secular education and religion, but when parents are forced to make a choice, they choose religion. (that is, in fact, why the home schooling movement has grown so much... but that is a spin off topic).
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby warmonger1981 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:48 pm

Look up forgiveness in the dictionary it says nothing about what you just spouted.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:52 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:How can one blame a voter for rationally choosing a president who will least likely increase the voter's taxes?

Because low taxes are not the ultimate good. Ultimate good is doing the least harm to other people..


Encouraging an organization to stealing other peoples' money in order to fund their voter-maximizing projects is not moral, but for you it is--and you'll word it differently.

The main point is that yours is one of many moral frameworks. Following consequentalism, Kant's categorical imperative, utilitarianism, and others will rationally lead one to different moral outcomes. Furthermore, we are all constrained by the opportunity costs of gathering the required information to make the most informed decision, and we are also bound by uncertainty. For example, the costs of some presidencies and certain proportions of Houses and Senates could not be fully conceived at the time of voting.

With these constraints, it's not easy to blame the voter, and "The possibility of less theft, yet more foreign war is hard to weigh..."
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:01 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:How can one blame a voter for rationally choosing a president who will least likely increase the voter's taxes?

Because low taxes are not the ultimate good. Ultimate good is doing the least harm to other people..


Encouraging an organization to stealing other peoples' money in order to fund their voter-maximizing projects is not moral, but for you it is--and you'll word it differently.
No, but go ahead and pretend it is.

taxes pay for things that all people need and use, such as a unified transportation system, protection, etc.

The amoral act here is pretending that you don't need any of those things and therefore have no responsibility for them.


BigBallinStalin wrote:The main point is that yours is one of many moral frameworks. Following consequentalism, Kant's categorical imperative, utilitarianism, and others will rationally lead one to different moral outcomes.
No, there is a difference between ultimate right and ultimate wrong. In no universe is money a judge of good.
It judges practicality, power, and many things, but not good.

BigBallinStalin wrote:Furthermore, we are all constrained by the opportunity costs of gathering the required information to make the most informed decision, and we are also bound by uncertainty. For example, the costs of some presidencies and certain proportions of Houses and Senates could not be fully conceived at the time of voting.
Irrelevant. You can argue more specifically that voting for this person or that would lead to a better outcome, but to claim that lower taxes outweighs all other points is not a moral position, it is a position of greed. It is a position of saying that what benefits me is good, regardless of the impact to the world around. That is not just bad, it is actually evil.

BigBallinStalin wrote:With these constraints, it's not easy to blame the voter, and "The possibility of less theft, yet more foreign war is hard to weigh..."

Your contraints are not relevant to this particular argument. There are many reasons why its not easy to blame voters, beginning with voters are not always told the truth and ending with things change between the vote and outcome.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:14 pm

Whatever, player. You're not worth it.

If anyone else wants to take a run at my post, then I'll gladly respond.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:53 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:So, let's assume some small amount of your donation goes to the Vatican.

Would you say that the Vatican is responsible--to some degree--for the scandal?


Yes.


Ah, interesting, interesting. Mr. TGD, how about the Vatican's role in this scandal? Did the Vatican do all they reasonably could to prevent molestation? Or, was there foul play on their part?


The latter.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:54 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:TGD: What do you want Catholic parishoners to do?
Timminz: Two choices: (1) leave the church; (2) stay in the church and condone child abuse and protection of child abusers.
TGD: Is there not a third choice: (3) stay in the church and force change
TGD: Furthermore, why do Catholics have to take the measure of leaving the church when there is a third option and the same choices are not provided to other organizations (e.g. Penn State, federal government, public education).
Timminz: I have not heard of public education child abuse and education is different than religion.

Can we get back to the discussion of whether there is an acceptable third option? If the third option is not acceptable, why isn't it acceptable (especially since it's already been effective)?


Why subsidize such an incompetent, and perhaps evil organization at Vatican? Why not split--to teach them a real lesson, instead of sending them your money?


No idea except that I disagree with your "subsidize" point. I thought I made it relatively clear that Catholic parishoners probably aren't subsidizing the Vatican.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby tzor on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:04 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Why subsidize such an incompetent, and perhaps evil organization at Vatican?


Point one: The average parishioner gives very little to the Vatican. Weekly collections goes to the local church; the diocese does annual appeals; and the pope gets one collection called "Peter's Pence."

Point number two: Pope Benedict's Most Underappreciated Achievement By Ramesh Ponnuru Feb 13, 2013 9:31 AM ET

Responsibility for dealing with the sex-abuse cases was centralized in Ratzinger’s office in 2001, and most observers say that the church’s record since that time has been much better than it had been before -- and that it continued to improve once Ratzinger became Benedict. The longtime Vatican correspondent John Allen Jr., while critical of the defensiveness of officials (including Benedict) at the first signs of widespread abuse, wrote in 2010 that “as pope, Benedict XVI became a Catholic Elliot Ness -- disciplining Roman favorites long regarded as untouchable, meeting sex abuse victims in both the United States and Australia, embracing ‘zero tolerance’ policies once viewed with disdain in Rome, and openly apologizing for the carnage caused by the crisis.”

That improvement is cold comfort for the victims, of course, but it is relevant to a fair assessment of the pope’s record.


That is not to say that there isn't an "evil organization" at the Vatican, but I personally believe that is the Vatican Bank and it has nothing to do with this scandal.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:04 am

warmonger1981 wrote:Look up forgiveness in the dictionary it says nothing about what you just spouted.

You obviously don't watch "woman's" talk shows ;)
Seriously, you won't find your idea in there, either.. its what you choose to add into the definition.
What I said IS what forgiveness is really about, regardless of any surface definition.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:08 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Whatever, player. You're not worth it.

.

Yeah, you only want to debate people who will laud your "intelligence". I know...

Your basic "premise" that taxes are theft shows just how far from reality your "ideas" are.
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Re: Organizational Responsibility

Postby warmonger1981 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:39 am

Your idea of forgiveness sounds more like my idea of not holding a grudge. Being able to live with anothers action in harmony. No I done watch much tv as I find it mostly propaganda and yes my definition is in there. I done just make things up.
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