Rise of Minimum wage?

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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby chang50 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:01 am

Personally I think the rise to 300 baht per day was a good step..
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:31 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
He does more than shovel dirt, just sayin'.

More what exactly? Not more work, most likely. More responsibilities, more headaches perhaps but it makes one wonder how big that bridge between the owner and the lowly worker ought to be. I think that's a pretty big problem with the U.S. tbh, everybody wants to run shit but nobody wants to do shit. Make the doing worth more and a lot more will get "done".
I'd just like to make a preemptive suggestion that we not enter free markets into this one because it not about that imho, it's about greed and preying on the ignorance of your workers, AKA dishonesty. Why pay people more than they are willing to work for you ask? Because they deserve to make more.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:53 am

warmonger1981 wrote:Suppose that lawyer had to go to law school and pull thousands in in credit to go there. He has to pay that back not you. There is a cost to run a business. I know I own my own company and if I paid my employees the same wage as me I would ne broke. But there has to be a fair wage paid no doubt . I also do 10 times the work be it paying for insurance,fuel,material,marketing and so on. Not everyone can make the same if there are hidden costs or if the work load is not the same. Should a burger flipper get the same wage as a manager who went to collage?

Lawyers are not exactly in danger of losing their high incomes. Law students ARE sometimes in a trap of thinking they could spend whatever they wished for college becuase they would just naturally make it later... even though there are far more people trying for the bar in many states than there are open positions for attorneys.

But, look at BK's example. Or, I can point to an interview with a New Yord provider of in home care services -- the people who take care of elderly and disabled individuals. They actually don't even have to be paid the minimum wage because they are classed, legally, the same as your teenage babysitters. But... go ask any agency to have someone come in and you will be hard pressed to find someone in a city for less than $20 an hour.. sometimes more. The company owner, though was claiming he could not possibly afford to pay more than $9.00 an hour (actually a very good wage for home service providers!). If the company really needs $11.00 for overhead, then there is something wrong with how they are running their company!
Even around here, agencies get that much or more -- but pay $7.50 an hour. (minimum is $7.35)

OR, look at any temp agency. I worked for Kelly temps for a few months when between biology jobs, first doing inventory work for $7.50 in Buffalo NY. That was OK, enough to get me rent, etc. The company paid just over $10 for me., not an unreasonable profit. I, of course got no real benefits, not even sick time, but they did cover workman's comp and such. Then I wound up doing some computer work. The temp agency then charged the company over $30 an hour.. but I did not get a dime more, even though the company literature (not contract, just their advertisements and such) claimed I would.

Teh fact is that minimum wage is $9.00 and more in some places. Businesses seem to do just fine. The truth is that when minimum wage is raised, there is a short term layoff impact. A few companies that were close to folding will close a tad earlier, but the majority keep on. Within 2 years everything is back as it was before, except with more money flowing from the bottom.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby warmonger1981 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:46 am

Never paid minimum wage nor will I. My job is too tough on the body. My guys start at 15 for not knowing shit. Temp agency in my opinion are crap and a scam. By the way I pay workmans comp and unemployment insurance but I cant collect it myself.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AAFitz on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:07 am

I dont know. The least amount Ive worked for since I was 19 was $10 an hour, and that was almost 25 years ago. I cant fathom living off of less.

The take-home on that is what $80....eat lunch $5, pay for gas $10...youre at $65 day. Those who argue against this are typically those who benefited most when their grandfathers benefited from such deals, and no doubt they are sickened by the fact that those that benefited so greatly, spit on what they used to not need it anymore.

Further, by not boosting the lowest of the lower class, they drag them and everyone around them down, and only those at the very top, could ever benefit.

The main problem of course, besides ignorance, is that we are directly competing with China, who has no problem exploiting their children, and essentially creating a slave society and labeling it capitalism. We all empower it to some degree, but posters like NS, albeit unwittingly, condones this with every post he ever makes, mostly, because he is too young, and has been coddled by a system he has come to forsake.

Its disgusting.

I hate agreeing with BK.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:46 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
He does more than shovel dirt, just sayin'.

More what exactly? Not more work, most likely. More responsibilities, more headaches perhaps but it makes one wonder how big that bridge between the owner and the lowly worker ought to be. I think that's a pretty big problem with the U.S. tbh, everybody wants to run shit but nobody wants to do shit. Make the doing worth more and a lot more will get "done".
I'd just like to make a preemptive suggestion that we not enter free markets into this one because it not about that imho, it's about greed and preying on the ignorance of your workers, AKA dishonesty. Why pay people more than they are willing to work for you ask? Because they deserve to make more.


You're talking outta your ass.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:47 am

AAFitz wrote:I dont know. The least amount Ive worked for since I was 19 was $10 an hour, and that was almost 25 years ago. I cant fathom living off of less.

The take-home on that is what $80....eat lunch $5, pay for gas $10...youre at $65 day. Those who argue against this are typically those who benefited most when their grandfathers benefited from such deals, and no doubt they are sickened by the fact that those that benefited so greatly, spit on what they used to not need it anymore.

Further, by not boosting the lowest of the lower class, they drag them and everyone around them down, and only those at the very top, could ever benefit.

The main problem of course, besides ignorance, is that we are directly competing with China, who has no problem exploiting their children, and essentially creating a slave society and labeling it capitalism. We all empower it to some degree, but posters like NS, albeit unwittingly, condones this with every post he ever makes, mostly, because he is too young, and has been coddled by a system he has come to forsake.

Its disgusting.

I hate agreeing with BK.


Don't you have a business? You should quadruple the pay of all your workers and see what happens. Why not give them all $100 per hour? See how that works out!
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AAFitz on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:53 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
AAFitz wrote:I dont know. The least amount Ive worked for since I was 19 was $10 an hour, and that was almost 25 years ago. I cant fathom living off of less.

The take-home on that is what $80....eat lunch $5, pay for gas $10...youre at $65 day. Those who argue against this are typically those who benefited most when their grandfathers benefited from such deals, and no doubt they are sickened by the fact that those that benefited so greatly, spit on what they used to not need it anymore.

Further, by not boosting the lowest of the lower class, they drag them and everyone around them down, and only those at the very top, could ever benefit.

The main problem of course, besides ignorance, is that we are directly competing with China, who has no problem exploiting their children, and essentially creating a slave society and labeling it capitalism. We all empower it to some degree, but posters like NS, albeit unwittingly, condones this with every post he ever makes, mostly, because he is too young, and has been coddled by a system he has come to forsake.

Its disgusting.

I hate agreeing with BK.


Don't you have a business? You should quadruple the pay of all your workers and see what happens. Why not give them all $100 per hour? See how that works out!


Actually, if I hire them to do some jobs for the state, $100 is the required amount. I know quite a few multi-millionaires that do this all the time. I wish I had the means to do just that, because they make a fortune doing it.

And I believe your information is bad once again. They are raising it to $10, not $100. You are off by a factor of ten. An improvement.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:56 am

Wait, why not pay them all $100 per hour? What price makes sense? Should marginal costs exceed marginal benefit?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AAFitz on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:04 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:Wait, why not pay them all $100 per hour? What price makes sense? Should marginal costs exceed marginal benefit?


Well, again, exxagerating to the factor of ten, may be fun, and all you are capable on the subject, as it seems, but its equally pointless and childish.

In any case, I would never stoop to paying them less than $10 an hour, and have never paid less than that.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:16 am

AAFitz wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Wait, why not pay them all $100 per hour? What price makes sense? Should marginal costs exceed marginal benefit?


Well, again, exxagerating to the factor of ten, may be fun, and all you are capable on the subject, as it seems, but its equally pointless and childish.

In any case, I would never stoop to paying them less than $10 an hour, and have never paid less than that.


There's no need to be an asshole. Aren't you an adult?

The point is that paying someone more than their labor is worth is stupid (e.g. $100 per hour to shovel dirt---one exception would be a disaster zone where there's high demand for labor, and/or supply of labor is very low). But most people don't get that. They don't understand what marginal labor product is. They don't understand that for every hour of labor, a certain amount of revenue is generated. Paying someone (marginal cost) more than the revenue they generate is stupid.

Hopefully, something nags on people's minds when they think, "Gee, what if I paid everyone a minimum of $100 per hour." Other times, it resorts to emotional knee-jerking and petty insults because of reasons only you know why, amirite?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:24 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:There's no need to be an asshole. Aren't you an adult?

BigBallinStalin wrote:You're talking outta your ass.


But honestly, I don't think I am. There are a lot of people out there who actually believe what their bosses tell them. For instance: "I can't afford to give you a raise right now". I've seen it with my own eyes man and I've seen the shitty boss drive away in his 75k work truck that he uses basically to commute to work.
So if the employees are ignorant to their own value as an employee, how can they know how much to insist on being payed? The owner continues to pad his pocket until his workers have no choice but to give him an ultimatum: Pay me more or I'm leaving. Why should it have to reach this point before a fair wage is given? I'd wager a lot of times it doesn't even get that far into the conversation. Inefficient.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:58 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:There's no need to be an asshole. Aren't you an adult?

BigBallinStalin wrote:You're talking outta your ass.


But honestly, I don't think I am. There are a lot of people out there who actually believe what their bosses tell them. For instance: "I can't afford to give you a raise right now". I've seen it with my own eyes man and I've seen the shitty boss drive away in his 75k work truck that he uses basically to commute to work.
(1) So if the employees are ignorant to their own value as an employee, (2) how can they know how much to insist on being payed? (3) The owner continues to pad his pocket until his workers have no choice but to give him an ultimatum: Pay me more or I'm leaving. (4) Why should it have to reach this point before a fair wage is given? (5) I'd wager a lot of times it doesn't even get that far into the conversation. (6) Inefficient.


Yeah, you were talking outta your ass. I was responding to barunt's situation, and then you invent a bunch of nonsense about his situation--as if you were pulling things outta your butt. Hence, talking outta your ass. Gotta call it like I see it, and there's not much of a quicker way to say it.

(1) They are? All of them? And they're totally ignorant? They don't understand the difference between $1/hour and $10/hour of their own labor? They can't even remotely gauge their own value? They can't determine if they or other employees are good, okay, or poor workers? Those are big assumptions.

(2) Competition and market prices. "What are the other suppliers of labor earning? What are their qualifications?"

(3) Sure. The same happens to other producers/suppliers--other than labor. As a consumer, you want what you paid for, or you can threaten to stop paying for it.

(4) What is "fair"? Because if you say that's not fair, then we can apply your reasoning consistently. We'll reach similar scenarios that are also "unfair," e.g. the consumer who threatens to stop paying for something received by the supplier. That's unfair! So, now what? You must conclude that it is unfair when a buyer rejects a seller's offer. You can be arbitrary or engage in special pleading (?) by stating that this only applies to sellers and buyers of labor, but that wouldn't seem logical.

(5) An empirical matter. Go figure.

(6) What's inefficient? How is it inefficient? And compared to what?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:07 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:Never paid minimum wage nor will I. My job is too tough on the body. My guys start at 15 for not knowing shit. Temp agency in my opinion are crap and a scam. By the way I pay workmans comp and unemployment insurance but I cant collect it myself.

Well, sounds like you are a reasonable manager or owner. Per the unemployment bit.. I actually agree. I think you can understand why the rule. Basically, you are in charge of your own income and workload. (at least in theory, anyway) It would be all too easy for small business owners to fictitiously put themselves out of work. BUT.. here is the deal. You don't get unemployment, but you get to set the rates (more or less). You get to choose the conditions, etc, etc. Its part of the other side of not having to answer to another boss (except, of course the customer).


But.. the temp agency abuses are part of what drive up your costs. When they hire people for 5 months and 27 days, because if they keep them 6 months they have to pay benefits (not sure if that is the case now, but it was for years)... then whether they wind up re-hiring that person in a month or let them go onto unemployment for a while before rehiring them, we all still pay. We ALSO pay in an even bigger way when they don't pay as much into social security or in taxes -- or in being able to just buy various products that will, in turn, generate more jobs.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby kentington on Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:13 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:The point is that paying someone more than their labor is worth is stupid (e.g. $100 per hour to shovel dirt---one exception would be a disaster zone where there's high demand for labor, and/or supply of labor is very low). But most people don't get that. They don't understand what marginal labor product is. They don't understand that for every hour of labor, a certain amount of revenue is generated. Paying someone (marginal cost) more than the revenue they generate is stupid.

Hopefully, something nags on people's minds when they think, "Gee, what if I paid everyone a minimum of $100 per hour." Other times, it resorts to emotional knee-jerking and petty insults because of reasons only you know why, amirite?


This is why minimum wage is kind of ridiculous. There are jobs out there that aren't worth minimum wage. Someone else already said it. There are jobs that are valued lower and when they first started were fulfilled by younger people getting work experience and living at home with parents.

In BK's case. This guy may be taking home some extra cash, but he got the job, scheduled it, had the equipment and the risk. If anything goes wrong he is the guy with responsibility. It may seem rude that he paid you less than the other guys, but by your own admission your work wasn't as productive.

Then for some to say don't start a business if you can't pay the employees. Seriously? Don't take the job if it doesn't provide enough for you. If there are no other jobs and you are stuck with that one, then don't complain because at least you will have a job. It sounds harsh but the person who starts a small business is usually in the hole financially for the first years. They aren't taking a paycheck and it is going to pay off debt incurred by starting a business. They are probably risking their house and cars. If you work for less and stick with a small business then you may be there when it grows and benefit from it. If not then at least you have experience and appear more valuable to the next employer.
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