Rise of Minimum wage?

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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:25 pm

Lootifer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:See? JB makes the mistake of thinking inflation is only the consumer price index and forgets about the many problems of those weighted averages and other issues:

Just musing here, but wouldnt a CPI calibrated for low income spending actually make JBs number bigger? I dont know, just asking the question.


Off the top of my head, I'm not sure either, but I can't justify spending that time looking at the current CPI figures to figure it out.

If they can successfully disaggregate measures for the CPI (lol wow, to what degree? for each city, town, and village?), then it would depend on whatever those figures may be, so it may be higher or lower than JB's "hard-hitting" analysis.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:42 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:3) AND THAT IS WHY THIS NUMBER IS USED IN The Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2013 ANDY WHY OBAMA HAS PROPOSED TO INDEX THE MINIMUM WAGE TO INFLATION, ADJUSTED BY LOCATION


So you're okay with getting rid of merit and longevity pay increases for minimum workers in exchange for a minimum wage that constantly goes up? Because that's what you're going to get until the employment system collapses on itself due to the perpetual circle of rising labor costs causing prices to increase causing inflation to increase causing labor costs to increase etc.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:22 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:At any rate, my basic point is that the minimum wage is to set a true basis for what employment really means. If you are getting less than that you might be "working", but you are not truly a "working full time adult" in society. Whether the rate drops or stays the same, it will be an honest emploment rate, not a fiction that pretends people who have to depend on taxpayer support to just get by are "fully employed".


Working full-time adults rarely make only minimum wage. They may start at minimum in businesses with high turnover, but even Wal-Mart pays their employees more than just the minimum.

Minimum wage was not and should not be intended as the sustainable wage. It's the trainee wage made usually by part-time-working students who for the most part are not self-supporting anyway, and certainly are not considered a "working, full-time adult" in society.

Come on! You cannot truly believe that a brand-new employee who does not know the business tactics of his new place of employment, should make anywhere close to what a trained or longterm employee makes.

Just because they're putting in the same amount of time does not mean the QUALITY of the work is the same. The new employee has to learn how to put out quality work by learning the various requirements of the business, starting with being led by another employee to know where the timecards are kept, where the bathroom is, where to get a pen and paper, and so forth. And NONE of that, which has already taken a quarter of an hour (longer if things like breaktimes, sick time, and other policies are explained) NONE of that has even started training this guy for the actual job he's expected to do.


That is not the argument.
The real minimum wage, adjusted for inflation should be $10.55 an hour. But the federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. So when a business, like Wal*Mart hires someone, they may pay them a little more than the federal minimum... let's say $9.90 an hour. But unless they make more than $10.55 an hour, then they are still below the inflation-adjusted minimum wage. One can speculate that this is why 50% of Americans are officially poor. That's 50 million Americans living below the poverty line, and 100 million who are low-income.



It's precisely the argument.

I'd speculate that why 50% of Americans are poor has zilch to do with a minimum wage; it has to do with the percentage of top-level income being more than ten times what it used to be in comparison to the lowest-paid worker's salary, and raising the minimum wage won't fix that, it makes things worse.

UNLESS there was a required COLA for every employee at every level, commensurate with the minimum wage adjustment COLA you want, then raising the minimum wage simply squeezes those adequately-trained employees in the middle by raising the costs of everything they purchase without giving THEM the same wage-raise percentage.

Additionally, adjusting the COLA by location does not necessarily help, since not all products one may need to purchase will be made within your own location. So your location may have a low COLA, but have to get products from somewhere with a high COLA, so the percentage it takes you to purchase that product would be higher than it was before this adjustment took effect.

Either way, those at the top will merely decide to raise prises.

I'll give you an example. My ex is on disability. He gets a COLA added to it each year; but each time he does, he gets an increase in rent by the same percentage; in his electric bill by the same percentage; in his cable bill by the same percentage; in the cost for his medical care by the same percentage; and the price of bread and other products he eats also goes up, as well as frequently, his share of any medicines he takes (copay). So it doesn't change his purchasing power for necessities - sometimes, his "COLA" actually reduces his purchasing power some years.

Same thing happens when the "minimum wage" increases with the added effect that, because companies raise prices to offset a minimum wage increase, but there are folks who don't get a wage increase themselves, the percentage of people "at or below poverty" increases.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:36 pm

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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:00 am

Juan_Bottom wrote:Image


That's what happens when the government prints endless amounts of money.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:25 am

Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:3) AND THAT IS WHY THIS NUMBER IS USED IN The Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2013 ANDY WHY OBAMA HAS PROPOSED TO INDEX THE MINIMUM WAGE TO INFLATION, ADJUSTED BY LOCATION


So you're okay with getting rid of merit and longevity pay increases for minimum workers in exchange for a minimum wage that constantly goes up? Because that's what you're going to get until the employment system collapses on itself due to the perpetual circle of rising labor costs causing prices to increase causing inflation to increase causing labor costs to increase etc.

No, in this case the market adjusts.

See, here is the irony. The market does work , to a large extent, for people who have specialized skills. It is very far from perfect, and HIGHLY skewed by the percieved need to pay investors dividends, boost stock prices.

But, it doesn't work at the bottom because, plain and simply, the "market" places no value on low skills. This is where human beings with morality have to come in and say "People have value".
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:30 am

Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Image


That's what happens when the government prints endless amounts of money.


To be fair, the guy with the sign probably makes $40 an hour.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:09 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:3) AND THAT IS WHY THIS NUMBER IS USED IN The Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2013 ANDY WHY OBAMA HAS PROPOSED TO INDEX THE MINIMUM WAGE TO INFLATION, ADJUSTED BY LOCATION


So you're okay with getting rid of merit and longevity pay increases for minimum workers in exchange for a minimum wage that constantly goes up? Because that's what you're going to get until the employment system collapses on itself due to the perpetual circle of rising labor costs causing prices to increase causing inflation to increase causing labor costs to increase etc.

No, in this case the market adjusts.

See, here is the irony. The market does work , to a large extent, for people who have specialized skills. It is very far from perfect, and HIGHLY skewed by the percieved need to pay investors dividends, boost stock prices.

But, it doesn't work at the bottom because, plain and simply, the "market" places no value on low skills.
This is where human beings with morality have to come in and say "People have value".


Sure, "it" values low-skilled workers, but you have to examine what distorts those values (e.g. minimum wage laws and the substitution effect).
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:20 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:See, here is the irony. The market does work , to a large extent, for people who have specialized skills. It is very far from perfect, and HIGHLY skewed by the percieved need to pay investors dividends, boost stock prices.

But, it doesn't work at the bottom because, plain and simply, the "market" places no value on low skills.
This is where human beings with morality have to come in and say "People have value".


Sure, "it" values low-skilled workers, but you have to examine what distorts those values (e.g. minimum wage laws and the substitution effect).


Nope, you are letting the tail wag the dog again.

Minimum wage is not about maintaining business or creating jobs or any other ephemeral cause. It is about ensuring that people who work get to live basic but decent lives for their efforts.

The rest is for the market to determine. MY argument, which you keep pretending doesn’t exist, is that the idea that someone can pay others less than it takes them to survive and still be providing anything for the economy is just false, particularly in a society which has determined that allowing people to just die on street corners of hunger is not a good idea. (i.e. most civilized societies)

Business should thrive or not, fully on its own.

Most of your arguments are not about economics or business in truth, they are about maintaining the CURRENT status quo. Set the boundaries and the system will change and adapt.

I am not in favor of a Marxist style revolution, don’t think that is really what will happen. (for one thing, folks have learned, from Machiavelli if no other, that you cannot oppress people too much or they will rebel). What I see is that this complete ignorance of the real world, the natural world, is allowing businesses and governments to make decisions that are very, very detrimental to humanity. Oil is one example, farmland is another, and chemical production is a third. There are others, but just focusing on the those 3 issues should terrify anyone.

IF business were truly forced to be accountable for the problems they are creating, then less wealth would be created, at least in the short term, but in the longer term you would see innovation toward more sustainability. Allowing “its not profitable [today]” to be a prime argument distorts the system and falsely creates a system where people are allowed to take serious gain by making horrible long term decisions.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:26 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:See, here is the irony. The market does work , to a large extent, for people who have specialized skills. It is very far from perfect, and HIGHLY skewed by the percieved need to pay investors dividends, boost stock prices.

But, it doesn't work at the bottom because, plain and simply, the "market" places no value on low skills.
This is where human beings with morality have to come in and say "People have value".


Sure, "it" values low-skilled workers, but you have to examine what distorts those values (e.g. minimum wage laws and the substitution effect).


Nope, you are letting the tail wag the dog again.

Minimum wage is not about maintaining business or creating jobs or any other ephemeral cause. It is about ensuring that people who work get to live basic but decent lives for their efforts.

The rest is for the market to determine. MY argument, which you keep pretending doesn’t exist, is that the idea that someone can pay others less than it takes them to survive and still be providing anything for the economy is just false, particularly in a society which has determined that allowing people to just die on street corners of hunger is not a good idea. (i.e. most civilized societies)


We've already been through this. What's the wage at which "it takes them to survive" and how many hours per week would that be? If you say, $10.00 per hour and 40 hours a week, that's just silly.

The main point the buyers still value low-skilled workers, and those workers, as sellers, still value the money/whatever received, but you have to examine what distorts those values (minimum wage and substitution effect). Imposing a minimum wage doesn't do minimum wage workers any favors--well, except for the ones that aren't fired.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:42 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:See, here is the irony. The market does work , to a large extent, for people who have specialized skills. It is very far from perfect, and HIGHLY skewed by the percieved need to pay investors dividends, boost stock prices.

But, it doesn't work at the bottom because, plain and simply, the "market" places no value on low skills.
This is where human beings with morality have to come in and say "People have value".


Sure, "it" values low-skilled workers, but you have to examine what distorts those values (e.g. minimum wage laws and the substitution effect).


Nope, you are letting the tail wag the dog again.

Minimum wage is not about maintaining business or creating jobs or any other ephemeral cause. It is about ensuring that people who work get to live basic but decent lives for their efforts.

The rest is for the market to determine. MY argument, which you keep pretending doesn’t exist, is that the idea that someone can pay others less than it takes them to survive and still be providing anything for the economy is just false, particularly in a society which has determined that allowing people to just die on street corners of hunger is not a good idea. (i.e. most civilized societies)


We've already been through this. What's the wage at which "it takes them to survive" and how many hours per week would that be? If you say, $10.00 per hour and 40 hours a week, that's just silly.

The main point the buyers still value low-skilled workers, and those workers, as sellers, still value the money/whatever received, but you have to examine what distorts those values (minimum wage and substitution effect). Imposing a minimum wage doesn't do minimum wage workers any favors--well, except for the ones that aren't fired.
Partially, you are reciting a standard, but highly disputed set of concepts.
Ultimately, I say it does matter, because people’s lives are improved, they pay more taxes and business adjusts, and many economists agree with that, though not all do. You disagree. Ultimately, there just is no set, firm answer it’s a debate.

Partly, it’s a “tail/dog” argument. What ultimately sets the success or failure of an economy tends to be basics like natural resource availability, rise of technology. Investment is secondary to that. Right now, we have major problems on both those fronts. We are using up and not replacing or finding alternatives for many natural resources ranging from farmland to oil to clean water. Also, we have likely reached a plateau technologically. That last one is hard, because there is always the chance of some brand new, never before thought of invention. Except… nothing truly phenomenal is in the “pipeline”, and in this country, the things that lead to that kind of innovation are specifically being destroyed -- creativity and high levels of knowledge in a wide range of areas is being replaced by a kind of “efficiency model”. Specialization might be good if your goal is to put out a known quantity quickly, but not to find new options or new products.

Its OK to talk about waiting for the new technological fix when the problem is not impending doom (literally) OR when there just are no other alternatives at all. Neither is the case here. By the time there is the kind of absolute firm proof some folks want, it will be far, far too late. In fact, it could be we are already almost at that point.. but we all hope not.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:58 pm

I'll just wait for you to address the substitution effect and how that's related to minimum wage.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:48 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/1 ... 00984.html

Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) made a case for increasing the minimum wage last week during a Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions hearing, in which she cited a study that suggested the federal minimum wage would have stood at nearly $22 an hour today if it had kept up with increased rates in worker productivity.

"If we started in 1960 and we said that as productivity goes up, that is as workers are producing more, then the minimum wage is going to go up the same. And if that were the case then the minimum wage today would be about $22 an hour," she said, speaking to Dr. Arindrajit Dube, a University of Massachusetts Amherst professor who has studied the economic impacts of minimum wage. "So my question is Mr. Dube, with a minimum wage of $7.25 an hour, what happened to the other $14.75? It sure didn't go to the worker."

Dube went on to note that if minimum wage incomes had grown over that period at the same pace as it had for the top 1 percent of income earners, the minimum wage would actually be closer to $33 an hour than the current $7.25.

It didn't appear that Warren was actually trying to make the case for a $22 an hour minimum wage, but rather highlighting the results of a recent study that showed flat minimum wage growth over the past 40-plus years coinciding with surging inequality across a number of economic indicators.

Warren went on to argue that raising the federal minimum wage to over $10 an hour in incremental steps over the next two years -- a cause championed by President Barack Obama in his State of the Union address and since taken up in the Senate -- would not be as damaging for businesses as some critics have argued.

Adjust the minimum wage for inflation, and it should be over $10 an hour. Adjust it for productivity and it should be over $20 an hour. Adjust it to match the rise in income for the 1%, and it should be over $30 an hour.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:54 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:I'll just wait for you to address the substitution effect and how that's related to minimum wage.

It doesn't.

That is an artificial concept used by people who already have a set belief to justify their ideas.

I am saying we need to look beyond.

The basis of an economy is not Kenesian, Australien or whatever school of economics. The basis of an economy is natural resources, technology and damages. Weather has more to do with the economy than any negative impact of minimum wage, seriously!
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:00 am

Juan_Bottom wrote: Adjust the minimum wage for inflation, and it should be over $10 an hour. Adjust it for productivity and it should be over $20 an hour. Adjust it to match the rise in income for the 1%, and it should be over $30 an hour.

The root reason is that the 1%, many others making over even 100K, is not based on work, it is based on investment.
That inherently moves money up to the top. Just like in monarchies, initially it is a good system for a reasonable cause. however, those in power keep demanding more and more until the system becomes exploitive. That is what we are seeing today.

It would not be so bad if we were just comparing the conditions of poor workers to the wealthy. Bad enough, when you have so many working people removed from their homes, unable to feed their families or afford health care. HOWEVER, what truly makes this system destructive is the environmental damage and natural resource overuse being utterly ignored as "mere externalities" that, basically, is just for looney hippies to worry about.
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