Rise of Minimum wage?

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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:16 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Yeah, you were talking outta your ass. I was responding to barunt's situation, and then you invent a bunch of nonsense about his situation--as if you were pulling things outta your butt. Hence, talking outta your ass. Gotta call it like I see it, and there's not much of a quicker way to say it.

I'll just chalk the rudeness off to my proposal to my suggestion of leaving free markets out of it then.

BigBallinStalin wrote:(1) They are? All of them? And they're totally ignorant? They don't understand the difference between $1/hour and $10/hour of their own labor? They can't even remotely gauge their own value? They can't determine if they or other employees are good, okay, or poor workers? Those are big assumptions.

I do make assumptions from time to time but this isn't one of those times. I've worked alongside minimum wagers and they really don't have any idea of what they are worth beyond the fact that they know they need to survive. I think an employee needs to know how much profit they are actually producing in order to realize what they are worth. Take into account the varying levels self-esteem of any given employee and you've really got a distorted idea of self-worth. I don't see how knowing what one's work is worth should affect someone receiving what one is worth.

BigBallinStalin wrote:(2) Competition and market prices. "What are the other suppliers of labor earning? What are their qualifications?"

Take into account the ideas presented in field (1) and you can see how this really doesn't matter. Minimum wagers are not as ambitious as you would like to think BBS, hence their position on the totem pole. That doesn't mean they shouldn't get an honest day's wage for an honest day's work.

BigBallinStalin wrote:(3) Sure. The same happens to other producers/suppliers--other than labor. As a consumer, you want what you paid for, or you can threaten to stop paying for it.

I mean really, if the person doesn't earn their wage it's pretty simple: you fire them. This creates initiative for people to work up to snuff.


BigBallinStalin wrote:(4) What is "fair"? Because if you say that's not fair, then we can apply your reasoning consistently. We'll reach similar scenarios that are also "unfair," e.g. the consumer who threatens to stop paying for something received by the supplier. That's unfair! So, now what? You must conclude that it is unfair when a buyer rejects a seller's offer. You can be arbitrary or engage in special pleading (?) by stating that this only applies to sellers and buyers of labor, but that wouldn't seem logical.(5) An empirical matter. Go figure.
(6) What's inefficient? How is it inefficient? And compared to what?

[/quote]
I'm not going to focus on the "fairness" from an earner's standpoint if it's got a stigma attached to it in your mind. How about the matter of efficiency since you seem to respect that? How is having people constantly dropping off and being added to a system really going to be efficient? It may be efficient for a single company regarding the cost of keeping people on but as workforce as a whole this can't be good for business.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:29 pm

kentington wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:The point is that paying someone more than their labor is worth is stupid (e.g. $100 per hour to shovel dirt---one exception would be a disaster zone where there's high demand for labor, and/or supply of labor is very low). But most people don't get that. They don't understand what marginal labor product is. They don't understand that for every hour of labor, a certain amount of revenue is generated. Paying someone (marginal cost) more than the revenue they generate is stupid.

Hopefully, something nags on people's minds when they think, "Gee, what if I paid everyone a minimum of $100 per hour." Other times, it resorts to emotional knee-jerking and petty insults because of reasons only you know why, amirite?


This is why minimum wage is kind of ridiculous. There are jobs out there that aren't worth minimum wage. Someone else already said it. There are jobs that are valued lower and when they first started were fulfilled by younger people getting work experience and living at home with parents.

In BK's case. This guy may be taking home some extra cash, but he got the job, scheduled it, had the equipment and the risk. If anything goes wrong he is the guy with responsibility. It may seem rude that he paid you less than the other guys, but by your own admission your work wasn't as productive.

Then for some to say don't start a business if you can't pay the employees. Seriously? Don't take the job if it doesn't provide enough for you. If there are no other jobs and you are stuck with that one, then don't complain because at least you will have a job. It sounds harsh but the person who starts a small business is usually in the hole financially for the first years. They aren't taking a paycheck and it is going to pay off debt incurred by starting a business. They are probably risking their house and cars. If you work for less and stick with a small business then you may be there when it grows and benefit from it. If not then at least you have experience and appear more valuable to the next employer.


Yeah, good point. Some miss that point too--about the employer taking those risks. They only look at outcomes where employers' succeeded and then clamor for a "fair" wage, "the boss is making too much"--while ignoring all those other failed outcomes.

Entrepreneurship: The Employee and the Employer
Most employees are entrepreneurs in the same sense as the employer. They are seeking profitable opportunities; however, for most employees, their risks are significantly minor--compared to the employer who borrows to start a business.

With more risk, comes more (expected) reward. If that additional reward was not available (e.g. snatched away by forcing employers to pay more per worker), then the profit signal for entrepreneurial action is removed. Without that profit--that reward for the risk--then entrepreneurship and investment are marginally decreased, and with it, employment, income, consumption, and additional investment.

All of this is connected, but many only see one small aspect of the full picture. They should stop to reflect on the unintended consequences, instead of clamoring for intervention--without even understanding what processes they're disturbing.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:43 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:(1) They are? All of them? And they're totally ignorant? They don't understand the difference between $1/hour and $10/hour of their own labor? They can't even remotely gauge their own value? They can't determine if they or other employees are good, okay, or poor workers? Those are big assumptions.

I do make assumptions from time to time but this isn't one of those times. I've worked alongside minimum wagers and they really don't have any idea of what they are worth beyond the fact that they know they need to survive. I think an employee needs to know how much profit they are actually producing in order to realize what they are worth. Take into account the varying levels self-esteem of any given employee and you've really got a distorted idea of self-worth. I don't see how knowing what one's work is worth should affect someone receiving what one is worth.


Nevertheless, still making big assumptions here.

RE: underlined. Ask yourself: if you are unaware of more profitable opportunities, would that affect your currently profitable opportunities (job)?
If you answer, "yes," then you've answered your own question.

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:(2) Competition and market prices. "What are the other suppliers of labor earning? What are their qualifications?"

Take into account the ideas presented in field (1) and you can see how this really doesn't matter. Minimum wagers are not as ambitious as you would like to think BBS, hence their position on the totem pole. That doesn't mean they shouldn't get an honest day's wage for an honest day's work.


That's a catchy slogan, but again it doesn't mean anything. The same can be said of the employer/owner. Even if people are not explicitly asking those questions, they still understand the difference between $7/hour and $3/hour. And eventually, they're able to evaluate the various costs and benefits to see if the nominal wages are equal or unequal. If not them, then others will do it for them--hence, market prices set through competition.

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:(3) Sure. The same happens to other producers/suppliers--other than labor. As a consumer, you want what you paid for, or you can threaten to stop paying for it.

I mean really, if the person doesn't earn their wage it's pretty simple: you fire them. This creates initiative for people to work up to snuff.


No, that's not the only solution--which you've created--because it's not that simple. For example, consumers may give the producer another chance, and so on and so forth. We should note that you're limiting the range of possibilities into one choice in order to fit everything into your desired conclusion. That's not good.


Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:(4) What is "fair"? Because if you say that's not fair, then we can apply your reasoning consistently. We'll reach similar scenarios that are also "unfair," e.g. the consumer who threatens to stop paying for something received by the supplier. That's unfair! So, now what? You must conclude that it is unfair when a buyer rejects a seller's offer. You can be arbitrary or engage in special pleading (?) by stating that this only applies to sellers and buyers of labor, but that wouldn't seem logical.(5) An empirical matter. Go figure.
(6) What's inefficient? How is it inefficient? And compared to what?

I'm not going to focus on the "fairness" from an earner's standpoint if it's got a stigma attached to it in your mind. How about the matter of efficiency since you seem to respect that? How is having people constantly dropping off and being added to a system really going to be efficient? It may be efficient for a single company regarding the cost of keeping people on but as workforce as a whole this can't be good for business.


I have no stigma about fairness. I'm just applying your position consistently, and showing how it leads yourself to silly conclusions. If you're not comfortable with that reductio ad absurdum, then I'd recommend you reflect on your argument by yourself.

Wait, so what's inefficient exactly? How is it inefficient? And compared to what?

If you don't feel like clarifying your own stance, then perhaps your own stance is not at all clear to even you... I really don't want to run in circles until you get your position about efficiency clarified here.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:01 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Wait, so what's inefficient exactly? How is it inefficient? And compared to what?

If you don't feel like clarifying your own stance, then perhaps your own stance is not at all clear to even you... I really don't want to run in circles until you get your position about efficiency clarified here.

I'm not going to respond to each response because it will soon get out of hand(this sort of posting expands exponentially lol) but I'll try to clarify.
For one thing, I don't understand the argument that some jobs are worth less than minimum wage... If it's worth less than minimum wage you either do it yourself or you delve two less than minimum wage earning jobs to one employee. If you can't do this, then it's worth minimum wage. Just seems like a bs notion.
Minimum wage being low is inefficient because its existence lets many people take on a job only to find its not worth it. Lets face it, minimum wage exists so it ought to reflect the minimum amount that someone is willing to work for long term right?
In my defense as far as the clarity of my stance, I don't always have a nice clear room with a computer without many distractions(not TV, etc. lol) Lame excuse I know but its maybe relevant?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby kentington on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:16 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Wait, so what's inefficient exactly? How is it inefficient? And compared to what?

If you don't feel like clarifying your own stance, then perhaps your own stance is not at all clear to even you... I really don't want to run in circles until you get your position about efficiency clarified here.

I'm not going to respond to each response because it will soon get out of hand(this sort of posting expands exponentially lol) but I'll try to clarify.
For one thing, I don't understand the argument that some jobs are worth less than minimum wage... 1. If it's worth less than minimum wage you either do it yourself or you delve two less than minimum wage earning jobs to one employee. If you can't do this, then it's worth minimum wage. Just seems like a bs notion.
2. Minimum wage being low is inefficient because its existence lets many people take on a job only to find its not worth it. 3.Lets face it, minimum wage exists so it ought to reflect the minimum amount that someone is willing to work for long term right?
In my defense as far as the clarity of my stance, I don't always have a nice clear room with a computer without many distractions(not TV, etc. lol) Lame excuse I know but its maybe relevant?


1. There are tasks that don't require much thought or labor, but take time away from an employer that could be better used doing something else. He/she may need only one employee at less than minimum wage. You are adding factors that don't always come into play.
2. It is the employers prerogative. If they find that the rate of turn over is too high and he keeps having to train new people, then he will raise the wage.
3. There are jobs that aren't meant for long term work. Now you can see why minimum wage is ridiculous. A burger flipper shouldn't be looking to make a career out of it. If the burger flipper decides to continue working, then it is his/her decision and they have decided it because the wage is worth it.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:24 pm

kentington wrote:1. There are tasks that don't require much thought or labor, but take time away from an employer that could be better used doing something else. He/she may need only one employee at less than minimum wage. You are adding factors that don't always come into play.

But if the job is worth paying (as you say, the employer has better, more profitable things to do) then it's worth paying minimum wage right? BBS would say: Markets.
kentington wrote:2. It is the employers prerogative. If they find that the rate of turn over is too high and he keeps having to train new people, then he will raise the wage.

Yeah, I already addressed this. If the cost to keep an employee is greater than the cost to hire a new one, etc., etc... This system may work for that specific employer but it doesn't work for the workforce as a whole. You just have a lot of people "in between" jobs with this system.
kentington wrote:3. There are jobs that aren't meant for long term work. Now you can see why minimum wage is ridiculous. A burger flipper shouldn't be looking to make a career out of it. If the burger flipper decides to continue working, then it is his/her decision and they have decided it because the wage is worth it.

He might make a career out of it if he made more. There are tons of jobs that are basically dead ends but people continue doing them because they're secure. What's the benefit of having a revolving door of people who are working a job because nobody else will do it for that kind of money? The result is workers working well below their potential and therefore low level producers/inefficient.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby keiths31 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:03 pm

As a business owner, minimum wage increasing due to government legislation makes my blood boil. I employ over 70 people. Many students. For me to make a profit, my wages can't exceed more than 20% of my revenue. The margins are small, so every little bit makes a huge difference. In Ontario, minimum wage over the last few years has gone from $8.60/hour to $10.25/hour. This was huge. But because my margins are so low, I had to raise my prices. Customers weren't happy, but it was the only way to stay profitable. People don't realize that when minimum wage goes up, so does the cost of products/items. So people who make more than minimum wage actually have less buying power. (When I started in the workforce 20 years ago I was making $3.25/hour. Minimum wage has tripled since then...but inflation hasn't tripled in that time. So minimum wage earners now have more buying power than they ever did)

When minimum wage was going up $0.75/year, I increased my long term staff's wages by the same amount to keep them that much above minimum. It cost me a lot in the short term, but saved me a lot in the long term as they were happy.

That being said I am hoping the province is done with the minimum wage increases for a while.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Funkyterrance on Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:23 pm

keiths31 wrote:As a business owner, minimum wage increasing due to government legislation makes my blood boil. I employ over 70 people. Many students. For me to make a profit, my wages can't exceed more than 20% of my revenue. The margins are small, so every little bit makes a huge difference. In Ontario, minimum wage over the last few years has gone from $8.60/hour to $10.25/hour. This was huge. But because my margins are so low, I had to raise my prices. Customers weren't happy, but it was the only way to stay profitable. People don't realize that when minimum wage goes up, so does the cost of products/items. So people who make more than minimum wage actually have less buying power.

Less buying power for stuff they don't want you mean? If a business is producing something that people stop buying because the prices rise, that means it's not that attractive an option? Or did they just bitch and keep buying at the new price, which if is the case, what's the problem? The buying power is still there, it's just being spent somewhere where people would rather spend it.
Last edited by Funkyterrance on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby kentington on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:57 pm

Funkyterrance wrote:
kentington wrote:1. There are tasks that don't require much thought or labor, but take time away from an employer that could be better used doing something else. He/she may need only one employee at less than minimum wage. You are adding factors that don't always come into play.

But if the job is worth paying (as you say, the employer has better, more profitable things to do) then it's worth paying minimum wage right? BBS would say: Markets.


No, just because a job is worth paying doesn't mean it is worth paying minimum wage. That is not a valid argument.
If there is a job, then it is worth paying.
There is a job.
Thus it is worth paying minimum wage.

Funkyterrance wrote:
kentington wrote:2. It is the employers prerogative. If they find that the rate of turn over is too high and he keeps having to train new people, then he will raise the wage.

Yeah, I already addressed this. If the cost to keep an employee is greater than the cost to hire a new one, etc., etc... This system may work for that specific employer but it doesn't work for the workforce as a whole. You just have a lot of people "in between" jobs with this system.


That is inaccurate. You assume that there will be a lot of people in between jobs. If there are a lot of people in between jobs in a certain field, then there is a large supply of those employees. When my wife got out of college she worked at a laboratory. She was paid a small amount and it was considered a starter job. Other labs paid more, but they only hired those with experience. Guess what? That difference in income is experience. Your employer takes a higher risk by hiring new to the field employees.

Funkyterrance wrote:
kentington wrote:3. There are jobs that aren't meant for long term work. Now you can see why minimum wage is ridiculous. A burger flipper shouldn't be looking to make a career out of it. If the burger flipper decides to continue working, then it is his/her decision and they have decided it because the wage is worth it.

He might make a career out of it if he made more. There are tons of jobs that are basically dead ends but people continue doing them because they're secure. What's the benefit of having a revolving door of people who are working a job because nobody else will do it for that kind of money? The result is workers working well below their potential and therefore low level producers/inefficient.


Just because someone might make a career out of it doesn't mean it is worth more pay. I would make a career of watching TV if it paid enough, but it isn't worth anything. The only reason those dead end jobs are secure is because they pay low. If the employer had to pay more money they would be less secure. You act like every business man has a ton of money and is looking to screw all of their employees.
The revolving door scenario works like this: A guy is hired to do a job that requires high school diploma and no experience. That is a dead end job. It isn't worth more. Yes, they may be a hard worker and they may be smart and they may even have a family with a ton of bills. That doesn't make the job worth more.
Workers work well below their potential even in well paying jobs. Workers work well below their potential when they have no fear of losing their job.

It seems like you have made up your mind on this topic and screw logic.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:20 am

kentington wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:
kentington wrote:1. There are tasks that don't require much thought or labor, but take time away from an employer that could be better used doing something else. He/she may need only one employee at less than minimum wage. You are adding factors that don't always come into play.

But if the job is worth paying (as you say, the employer has better, more profitable things to do) then it's worth paying minimum wage right? BBS would say: Markets.


No, just because a job is worth paying doesn't mean it is worth paying minimum wage. That is not a valid argument.
If there is a job, then it is worth paying.
There is a job.
Thus it is worth paying minimum wage.

Funkyterrance wrote:
kentington wrote:2. It is the employers prerogative. If they find that the rate of turn over is too high and he keeps having to train new people, then he will raise the wage.

Yeah, I already addressed this. If the cost to keep an employee is greater than the cost to hire a new one, etc., etc... This system may work for that specific employer but it doesn't work for the workforce as a whole. You just have a lot of people "in between" jobs with this system.


That is inaccurate. You assume that there will be a lot of people in between jobs. If there are a lot of people in between jobs in a certain field, then there is a large supply of those employees. When my wife got out of college she worked at a laboratory. She was paid a small amount and it was considered a starter job. Other labs paid more, but they only hired those with experience. Guess what? That difference in income is experience. Your employer takes a higher risk by hiring new to the field employees.

Funkyterrance wrote:
kentington wrote:3. There are jobs that aren't meant for long term work. Now you can see why minimum wage is ridiculous. A burger flipper shouldn't be looking to make a career out of it. If the burger flipper decides to continue working, then it is his/her decision and they have decided it because the wage is worth it.

He might make a career out of it if he made more. There are tons of jobs that are basically dead ends but people continue doing them because they're secure. What's the benefit of having a revolving door of people who are working a job because nobody else will do it for that kind of money? The result is workers working well below their potential and therefore low level producers/inefficient.


Just because someone might make a career out of it doesn't mean it is worth more pay. I would make a career of watching TV if it paid enough, but it isn't worth anything. The only reason those dead end jobs are secure is because they pay low. If the employer had to pay more money they would be less secure. You act like every business man has a ton of money and is looking to screw all of their employees.
The revolving door scenario works like this: A guy is hired to do a job that requires high school diploma and no experience. That is a dead end job. It isn't worth more. Yes, they may be a hard worker and they may be smart and they may even have a family with a ton of bills. That doesn't make the job worth more.
Workers work well below their potential even in well paying jobs. Workers work well below their potential when they have no fear of losing their job.

It seems like you have made up your mind on this topic and screw logic.

Nah, just your scenarios tend to be seeing the picture strictly from an upper-middle class standpoint. You seem to be undermining the ramifications of keeping it ridiculously low to the point where no one can reasonably live sustainably on it. You're acting like minimum wage jobs are reserved for teenagers and college students/fresh graduates. I've seen the nuts and bolts of several successful small businesses and the employees are at the mercy of the honesty of their employers, which tends to be in short supply. Money is being made by any small business that is large enough to have to hire employees and is running things smartly and adapting properly. If you are taking a loss by hiring out then the few dollars an hour you lose from paying your employees isn't going to make a wit of difference. You are doing something wrong.
I'm not saying force companies to hire people, I'm saying encourage companies to run things efficiently enough so that their workers are paid a reasonable living for their sweat. Sweat, somewhere, somehow, is what makes the money, contrary to popular belief. The management is just there to keep the machine oiled. Just hope that minimum wagers never learn the royal stiffing they are being served because if enough of them do it's going to be a rude awakening for the paper pushers.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby kentington on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:31 am

Funkyterrance wrote:Nah, just your scenarios tend to be seeing the picture strictly from an upper-middle class standpoint. You seem to be undermining the ramifications of keeping it ridiculously low to the point where no one can reasonably live sustainably on it. You're acting like minimum wage jobs are reserved for teenagers and college students/fresh graduates. I've seen the nuts and bolts of several successful small businesses and the employees are at the mercy of the honesty of their employers, which tends to be in short supply. Money is being made by any small business that is large enough to have to hire employees and is running things smartly and adapting properly. If you are taking a loss by hiring out then the few dollars an hour you lose from paying your employees isn't going to make a wit of difference. You are doing something wrong.
I'm not saying force companies to hire people, I'm saying encourage companies to run things efficiently enough so that their workers are paid a reasonable living for their sweat. Sweat, somewhere, somehow, is what makes the money, contrary to popular belief. The management is just there to keep the machine oiled. Just hope that minimum wagers never learn the royal stiffing they are being served because if enough of them do it's going to be a rude awakening for the paper pushers.


You say that I only focus on the upper-middle class which is not true. I have made minimum wage and I have made less than minimum wage.
This bolded part shows that you seem to think that minimum wage workers are the hardest working people and that everyone is taking advantage of them. There is more to management than keeping the machine well oiled. They are bringing in new customers, dealing with unhappy customers, dealing with payroll, and multiple other jobs that require experience and degrees. They do sweat and work hard. A lot of them are salary based and work over time at no extra pay and even holidays. This means that they are making less per hour than it seems. Those paper pushers do more than just file paper work. If they don't, then they probably aren't making as much as you assume.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:52 am

kentington wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:Nah, just your scenarios tend to be seeing the picture strictly from an upper-middle class standpoint. You seem to be undermining the ramifications of keeping it ridiculously low to the point where no one can reasonably live sustainably on it. You're acting like minimum wage jobs are reserved for teenagers and college students/fresh graduates. I've seen the nuts and bolts of several successful small businesses and the employees are at the mercy of the honesty of their employers, which tends to be in short supply. Money is being made by any small business that is large enough to have to hire employees and is running things smartly and adapting properly. If you are taking a loss by hiring out then the few dollars an hour you lose from paying your employees isn't going to make a wit of difference. You are doing something wrong.
I'm not saying force companies to hire people, I'm saying encourage companies to run things efficiently enough so that their workers are paid a reasonable living for their sweat. Sweat, somewhere, somehow, is what makes the money, contrary to popular belief. The management is just there to keep the machine oiled. Just hope that minimum wagers never learn the royal stiffing they are being served because if enough of them do it's going to be a rude awakening for the paper pushers.


You say that I only focus on the upper-middle class which is not true. I have made minimum wage and I have made less than minimum wage.
This bolded part shows that you seem to think that minimum wage workers are the hardest working people and that everyone is taking advantage of them. There is more to management than keeping the machine well oiled. They are bringing in new customers, dealing with unhappy customers, dealing with payroll, and multiple other jobs that require experience and degrees. They do sweat and work hard. A lot of them are salary based and work over time at no extra pay and even holidays. This means that they are making less per hour than it seems. Those paper pushers do more than just file paper work. If they don't, then they probably aren't making as much as you assume.

Well, I've been in management positions so I do realize the role they play but I too have worked for minimum wage(never less though, how does that even work lol?). I didn't mean to undermine management and I probably layed it on a little thick. I suppose my angle is that minimum wagers are seeming to be painted in the light of being disposable to some degree or other. I don't believe I've ever heard of a manager of any sort making minimum wage but it's arguable that a manager creates no more profit than any one of their workers. They've got a different skill set of course but the actual productivity is questionable, depending on the industry. I get the impression that the reason minimum wagers are paid minimum wage is because they aren't smart enough to realize their own worth. My argument is that perceived knowledge of one's worth should not dictate one's worth. The gap between the perceived worth of the minimum wager and the actual worth(in an efficiently run business) I believe is staggering.
An analogy:
A poor, ignorant man lives in a small shack with his wife and many children. A man from the city comes to him and says he will pay him 10 cents for every shiny stone he finds in the mountains. The man toils and scratches the hills and finds many of these shiny rocks and gives them to the man from the city on a regular basis. As you may have guessed, the shiny rocks are diamonds and he's made the man from the city rich while he still lives in poverty. Is this a good system? Who has been more productive?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby kentington on Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:09 am

Funkyterrance wrote:Well, I've been in management positions so I do realize the role they play but I too have worked for minimum wage(never less though, how does that even work lol?). I didn't mean to undermine management and I probably layed it on a little thick. I suppose my angle is that minimum wagers are seeming to be painted in the light of being disposable to some degree or other. I don't believe I've ever heard of a manager of any sort making minimum wage but it's arguable that a manager creates no more profit than any one of their workers. They've got a different skill set of course but the actual productivity is questionable, depending on the industry. I get the impression that the reason minimum wagers are paid minimum wage is because they aren't smart enough to realize their own worth. My argument is that perceived knowledge of one's worth should not dictate one's worth. The gap between the perceived worth of the minimum wager and the actual worth(in an efficiently run business) I believe is staggering.
An analogy:
A poor, ignorant man lives in a small shack with his wife and many children. A man from the city comes to him and says he will pay him 10 cents for every shiny stone he finds in the mountains. The man toils and scratches the hills and finds many of these shiny rocks and gives them to the man from the city on a regular basis. As you may have guessed, the shiny rocks are diamonds and he's made the man from the city rich while he still lives in poverty. Is this a good system? Who has been more productive?


When I made less than minimum wage it was working for a company picnic place. They would pay you cash. :)
In the analogy: This seems more like a third world country scenario. This is the skeevy kind of guy who is going to pay you cash for the job and forget minimum wage. Someone who is exploiting to this extent only cares about money and the fastest way to get it.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:19 am

Funkyterrance wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Wait, so what's inefficient exactly? How is it inefficient? And compared to what?

If you don't feel like clarifying your own stance, then perhaps your own stance is not at all clear to even you... I really don't want to run in circles until you get your position about efficiency clarified here.

I'm not going to respond to each response because it will soon get out of hand(this sort of posting expands exponentially lol) but I'll try to clarify.
For one thing, I don't understand the argument that some jobs are worth less than minimum wage... If it's worth less than minimum wage you either do it yourself or you delve two less than minimum wage earning jobs to one employee. If you can't do this, then it's worth minimum wage. Just seems like a bs notion.
Minimum wage being low is inefficient because its existence lets many people take on a job only to find its not worth it. Lets face it, minimum wage exists so it ought to reflect the minimum amount that someone is willing to work for long term right?
In my defense as far as the clarity of my stance, I don't always have a nice clear room with a computer without many distractions(not TV, etc. lol) Lame excuse I know but its maybe relevant?


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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:42 am

kentington wrote:This is why minimum wage is kind of ridiculous. There are jobs out there that aren't worth minimum wage. Someone else already said it. There are jobs that are valued lower and when they first started were fulfilled by younger people getting work experience and living at home with parents.

To pay a high school kid low wages is one thing, but claiming that is really what minimum wage is about is a distortion of the reality.. or is ONLY the reality for the true minimum. Most people make 5-10 cents more, enough to claim they are not making minimum, but not enough to fill anyones pocketbook. The bottom line is that people are worth more. That applies at the bottom, not just the top. To claim that one person, with any skills is actually worth 2 million a year.. but another person is not worth more than $7.35 an hour is ridiculous. The difference in skills is not THAT great, sorry.. it just isn't unless you live in a distorted world where "worth" is set by artificial ideas and not realities.

kentington wrote:In BK's case. This guy may be taking home some extra cash, but he got the job, scheduled it, had the equipment and the risk. If anything goes wrong he is the guy with responsibility. It may seem rude that he paid you less than the other guys, but by your own admission your work wasn't as productive.

Note that BK was not being paid even close to minimum wage at the time. BIG difference!

kentington wrote:Then for some to say don't start a business if you can't pay the employees. Seriously? Don't take the job if it doesn't provide enough for you. If there are no other jobs and you are stuck with that one, then don't complain because at least you will have a job. It sounds harsh but the person who starts a small business is usually in the hole financially for the first years. They aren't taking a paycheck and it is going to pay off debt incurred by starting a business. They are probably risking their house and cars. If you work for less and stick with a small business then you may be there when it grows and benefit from it. If not then at least you have experience and appear more valuable to the next employer.
That " I am taking a loss" bit is garbage. Sure, you start a business you take a risk.. AND you stand to gain a whole lot, you get to set your basic conditions, etc, etc. Above all, its your choice to run or not run the business.

When it comes to employment.. people HAVE to work to get by. The problem today is that when you hire someone for low wage, you can pretend you are giving them something, but only becuase other taxpayers are stepping up (not by choice) to pay part of your employees living expenses. THAT is why the system is skewed. You are not truly paying "market wages" you are paying the least wage you possibly can get away with for a time.. just like many jerks will pollute if the law doesn't step in, even though it causes harm to everyone else, will even sell outright dangerous products and fake tests to "prove" its good if there is not enough oversight... gee, some people even creat fictitious investment "opportunities: and make huge killings.. at the expense of many others.

THAT is why laws are needed. People at the bottom cannot "fight" for themselves, because as you said, there are not that many jobs out there and they need what they can get. Skills are irrelevant.

Oh, and on that bit about skills.. ask yourself why sn an institutional cook tends to make 8,maybr 9 an hour , but the guy who mows the lawn often makes at least $10? Think the fact that its mostly women has anything at all to do with it...
YES, it does. And its also why nurses get paid less than legal assistants, though that nurse is the one who may well determine if you live or die based on her care. The market is about people manipulating prices, not any ultimate truth.


Yeah, good point. Some miss that point too--about the employer taking those risks. They only look at outcomes where employers' succeeded and then clamor for a "fair" wage, "the boss is making too much"--while ignoring all those other failed outcomes.

Entrepreneurship: The Employee and the Employer
Most employees are entrepreneurs in the same sense as the employer. They are seeking profitable opportunities; however, for most employees, their risks are significantly minor--compared to the employer who borrows to start a business.

With more risk, comes more (expected) reward. If that additional reward was not available (e.g. snatched away by forcing employers to pay more per worker), then the profit signal for entrepreneurial action is removed. Without that profit--that reward for the risk--then entrepreneurship and investment are marginally decreased, and with it, employment, income, consumption, and additional investment.

All of this is connected, but many only see one small aspect of the full picture. They should stop to reflect on the unintended consequences, instead of clamoring for intervention--without even understanding what processes they're disturbing.[/quote]
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:42 am

Why does the government get to dictate what people should be paid? Are people too stupid to find jobs that pay them what they want them to paid? Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby tzor on Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:55 am

kentington wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:He might make a career out of it if he made more. There are tons of jobs that are basically dead ends but people continue doing them because they're secure.

Just because someone might make a career out of it doesn't mean it is worth more pay.

Let's, for a moment, assume kentington's argument because I think there is a fundamental flaw in it. Assume a minimum wage job. Assume person works at minimum wage job. Logic demands (yes there are exceptions but unless you have a problem in life, the more you do a thing the better you get at it) that the person will get better at it. He will soon either out perform in that job or he will acquire the skills to be able to train others to do the job. In short the person will acquire the necessary assets that will demand a higher wage.

Ignoring the minimum wage, that is the cycle of corporate life. No one retires at the entry level job they started out with. Wage is proportional to experience and effectiveness.

Ironically, those areas where you may be doing the same thing at the point of retirement tend to be union jobs with big wage increases. The janitor who works in the New York City School System is making a lot of money compared to a lot of people who are just starting work.

Therefore the minimum wage is effectively the minimum experience level.

(Note also that the minimum wage is also the bored out of your mind level as well. Many "retired" people take positions as Wall Mart greeters, not because they need the money (it is nice) but because they want to step out of the "retirement" world, if only for a few hours a day and actually do something with other people that is interesting. The increase in the minimum wage results in a reduction of the available slots because it makes no sense to hire people at the higher level to simply say "Hi" and "Light bulbs are on aisle 7.")

Consider all the number of jobs that are no more due to the current wage system. There was a time when at the supermarket you had, on a given checkout line, one cashier and one bagger. The person who bagged the groceries allowed the line to go faster. Sometimes they worked in chains and he even brought your bags to your car. (What a lovely boy.) His level of experience didn't require him to understand the complexity of a cash register (which is getting more and more complicated every day) or know the various codes for all the fruits and vegetables that are not bar coded. Now there is one cashier and you either bag yourself or wait for her to do it for you, slowing down the line. We have even reached the point where self checkouts where several stations are coordinated by a single cashier are common. The number of young people employed has significantly dropped as a result. Why? Because supermarkets already run on razor thin margin lines.

EDIT: Citations were swapped.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby patches70 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:14 pm

minimum wage only allows for discrimination of unskilled workers. That's about all it does.

What is the largest segment of unemployed? Teens, 16-19 who at the moment are running a rate of around 23%*. Those people just entering the workforce and haven't yet acquired the needed skills. Raising the minimum wage will only increase that demographic of unemployed.

That demographic is going to be the highest even if there wasn't a minimum wage, for obvious reasons. But the minimum wage allows a business who could hire a worker for a job that is worth $6 an hour, but since the business isn't allowed to hire that cheaply, the business will simply not have that job available. "Sorry, you are unskilled and the jobs I have are too valuable to give to someone who is unskilled. Come back when you have the necessary skills."
Those lower wage jobs are a vehicle for workers to acquire the necessary skills to get higher paying jobs later. If they go away, even a percentage of those jobs going away, only hurts the whole, and disproportionately hurts minorities than any other segment.

It's even worse because this latest proposal is attempting to have future minimum wage increases tied to inflation. You all don't want that to happen. You might not realize it now, but you will understand soon enough if that goes through.


* https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 3238,d.aWM
(That's just the "official" unemployment numbers. Some think the real unemployment is even worse.)

I'm confident that the combined consequences of the ACA, the massive debt, out of control spending, impossible promises, the stifling taxes (which will only get worse) and all the other poorly devised (yet well intended often times) policies will have a devastating affect through 2013 -2015.
Hopefully, everyone will be using the time now to get out of debt, stay out of debt and acquire actual useful skills. Otherwise, the lean years are a coming, such that we'll look back at these days and remember fondly- "Those were the good old days".

Part of me can hardly wait. In such times there are great opportunities for those who have positioned themselves wisely. While another part of me can only sigh and remember we reap what we sow.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:36 pm

Night Strike wrote:Why does the government get to dictate what people should be paid? Are people too stupid to find jobs that pay them what they want them to paid?


People lack the power to fight. An employer can, and some will, take any measures to exploit workers in order to fill their own pocket. Some people steal goods, some people steal employee;s time.. .unless there are laws that are enforced.


Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?

The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.


A government's job is to protect the weak from abuse, not control every aspect of people's lives.

Oh, and try looking historically at what happens to societies that have an extreme disparity of wealth. Or I can just tell you.. they fail.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:11 pm

Yeah the question was not whether or not minimum wage should exist but rather whether or not it should be raised, right?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby kentington on Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:56 pm

tzor wrote:
kentington wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:He might make a career out of it if he made more. There are tons of jobs that are basically dead ends but people continue doing them because they're secure.

Just because someone might make a career out of it doesn't mean it is worth more pay.

Let's, for a moment, assume kentington's argument because I think there is a fundamental flaw in it. Assume a minimum wage job. Assume person works at minimum wage job. Logic demands (yes there are exceptions but unless you have a problem in life, the more you do a thing the better you get at it) that the person will get better at it. He will soon either out perform in that job or he will acquire the skills to be able to train others to do the job. In short the person will acquire the necessary assets that will demand a higher wage.

Ignoring the minimum wage, that is the cycle of corporate life. No one retires at the entry level job they started out with. Wage is proportional to experience and effectiveness.

Ironically, those areas where you may be doing the same thing at the point of retirement tend to be union jobs with big wage increases. The janitor who works in the New York City School System is making a lot of money compared to a lot of people who are just starting work.

Therefore the minimum wage is effectively the minimum experience level.


Did you intend for this post to find a flaw in my argument or in FunkyTerrance's?
If it was against my argument I don't see where the flaw is in it from what you posted. If you meant it for my argument I will go through and show, but I don't want to do that in case you meant FT's.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:03 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?

The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.


And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.

Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Symmetry on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:57 am

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?

The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.


And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.

Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.


Hilarious- what skills do you think they're picking up? Why do you think only young people are in these positions?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:54 am

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?

The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.


And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.
Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.
Night Strike wrote:
Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.

No, in most cases, young people, trainees can be paid less. Even professional in-home care workers don't have to be paid minimum wage.

Further more. the reason folks like you can trot out the idea that only a few people get minimum wage is because anyone making even a penny more is technically no longer making minimum wage. The number of people making under $8 or $9 an hour is close to a fourth of the population... and a LARGE percentage of them are women, not teenage kids.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Nobunaga on Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:59 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?

The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.


And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.
Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.
Night Strike wrote:
Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.

No, in most cases, young people, trainees can be paid less. Even professional in-home care workers don't have to be paid minimum wage.

Further more. the reason folks like you can trot out the idea that only a few people get minimum wage is because anyone making even a penny more is technically no longer making minimum wage. The number of people making under $8 or $9 an hour is close to a fourth of the population... and a LARGE percentage of them are women, not teenage kids.


... Where's my violin? :-({|=
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