Rise of Minimum wage?

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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:42 am

Why does the government get to dictate what people should be paid? Are people too stupid to find jobs that pay them what they want them to paid? Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby tzor on Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:55 am

kentington wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:He might make a career out of it if he made more. There are tons of jobs that are basically dead ends but people continue doing them because they're secure.

Just because someone might make a career out of it doesn't mean it is worth more pay.

Let's, for a moment, assume kentington's argument because I think there is a fundamental flaw in it. Assume a minimum wage job. Assume person works at minimum wage job. Logic demands (yes there are exceptions but unless you have a problem in life, the more you do a thing the better you get at it) that the person will get better at it. He will soon either out perform in that job or he will acquire the skills to be able to train others to do the job. In short the person will acquire the necessary assets that will demand a higher wage.

Ignoring the minimum wage, that is the cycle of corporate life. No one retires at the entry level job they started out with. Wage is proportional to experience and effectiveness.

Ironically, those areas where you may be doing the same thing at the point of retirement tend to be union jobs with big wage increases. The janitor who works in the New York City School System is making a lot of money compared to a lot of people who are just starting work.

Therefore the minimum wage is effectively the minimum experience level.

(Note also that the minimum wage is also the bored out of your mind level as well. Many "retired" people take positions as Wall Mart greeters, not because they need the money (it is nice) but because they want to step out of the "retirement" world, if only for a few hours a day and actually do something with other people that is interesting. The increase in the minimum wage results in a reduction of the available slots because it makes no sense to hire people at the higher level to simply say "Hi" and "Light bulbs are on aisle 7.")

Consider all the number of jobs that are no more due to the current wage system. There was a time when at the supermarket you had, on a given checkout line, one cashier and one bagger. The person who bagged the groceries allowed the line to go faster. Sometimes they worked in chains and he even brought your bags to your car. (What a lovely boy.) His level of experience didn't require him to understand the complexity of a cash register (which is getting more and more complicated every day) or know the various codes for all the fruits and vegetables that are not bar coded. Now there is one cashier and you either bag yourself or wait for her to do it for you, slowing down the line. We have even reached the point where self checkouts where several stations are coordinated by a single cashier are common. The number of young people employed has significantly dropped as a result. Why? Because supermarkets already run on razor thin margin lines.

EDIT: Citations were swapped.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby patches70 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:14 pm

minimum wage only allows for discrimination of unskilled workers. That's about all it does.

What is the largest segment of unemployed? Teens, 16-19 who at the moment are running a rate of around 23%*. Those people just entering the workforce and haven't yet acquired the needed skills. Raising the minimum wage will only increase that demographic of unemployed.

That demographic is going to be the highest even if there wasn't a minimum wage, for obvious reasons. But the minimum wage allows a business who could hire a worker for a job that is worth $6 an hour, but since the business isn't allowed to hire that cheaply, the business will simply not have that job available. "Sorry, you are unskilled and the jobs I have are too valuable to give to someone who is unskilled. Come back when you have the necessary skills."
Those lower wage jobs are a vehicle for workers to acquire the necessary skills to get higher paying jobs later. If they go away, even a percentage of those jobs going away, only hurts the whole, and disproportionately hurts minorities than any other segment.

It's even worse because this latest proposal is attempting to have future minimum wage increases tied to inflation. You all don't want that to happen. You might not realize it now, but you will understand soon enough if that goes through.


* https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 3238,d.aWM
(That's just the "official" unemployment numbers. Some think the real unemployment is even worse.)

I'm confident that the combined consequences of the ACA, the massive debt, out of control spending, impossible promises, the stifling taxes (which will only get worse) and all the other poorly devised (yet well intended often times) policies will have a devastating affect through 2013 -2015.
Hopefully, everyone will be using the time now to get out of debt, stay out of debt and acquire actual useful skills. Otherwise, the lean years are a coming, such that we'll look back at these days and remember fondly- "Those were the good old days".

Part of me can hardly wait. In such times there are great opportunities for those who have positioned themselves wisely. While another part of me can only sigh and remember we reap what we sow.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:36 pm

Night Strike wrote:Why does the government get to dictate what people should be paid? Are people too stupid to find jobs that pay them what they want them to paid?


People lack the power to fight. An employer can, and some will, take any measures to exploit workers in order to fill their own pocket. Some people steal goods, some people steal employee;s time.. .unless there are laws that are enforced.


Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?

The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.


A government's job is to protect the weak from abuse, not control every aspect of people's lives.

Oh, and try looking historically at what happens to societies that have an extreme disparity of wealth. Or I can just tell you.. they fail.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Funkyterrance on Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:11 pm

Yeah the question was not whether or not minimum wage should exist but rather whether or not it should be raised, right?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby kentington on Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:56 pm

tzor wrote:
kentington wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:He might make a career out of it if he made more. There are tons of jobs that are basically dead ends but people continue doing them because they're secure.

Just because someone might make a career out of it doesn't mean it is worth more pay.

Let's, for a moment, assume kentington's argument because I think there is a fundamental flaw in it. Assume a minimum wage job. Assume person works at minimum wage job. Logic demands (yes there are exceptions but unless you have a problem in life, the more you do a thing the better you get at it) that the person will get better at it. He will soon either out perform in that job or he will acquire the skills to be able to train others to do the job. In short the person will acquire the necessary assets that will demand a higher wage.

Ignoring the minimum wage, that is the cycle of corporate life. No one retires at the entry level job they started out with. Wage is proportional to experience and effectiveness.

Ironically, those areas where you may be doing the same thing at the point of retirement tend to be union jobs with big wage increases. The janitor who works in the New York City School System is making a lot of money compared to a lot of people who are just starting work.

Therefore the minimum wage is effectively the minimum experience level.


Did you intend for this post to find a flaw in my argument or in FunkyTerrance's?
If it was against my argument I don't see where the flaw is in it from what you posted. If you meant it for my argument I will go through and show, but I don't want to do that in case you meant FT's.
Bruceswar » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:59 pm wrote:We all had tons of men..
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:03 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?

The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.


And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.

Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Symmetry on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:57 am

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?

The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.


And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.

Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.


Hilarious- what skills do you think they're picking up? Why do you think only young people are in these positions?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:54 am

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?

The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.


And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.
Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.
Night Strike wrote:
Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.

No, in most cases, young people, trainees can be paid less. Even professional in-home care workers don't have to be paid minimum wage.

Further more. the reason folks like you can trot out the idea that only a few people get minimum wage is because anyone making even a penny more is technically no longer making minimum wage. The number of people making under $8 or $9 an hour is close to a fourth of the population... and a LARGE percentage of them are women, not teenage kids.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Nobunaga on Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:59 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Night Strike wrote: Furthermore, why should the government tell employers what to pay regardless of the ability of their business to stay open? If the government can mandate a pay floor overall, why not also pay floors in mid-level jobs? Or pay caps? When does the government control end? When does the marketplace get to determine how much jobs are worth and people are allowed to have the freedom to figure out what pay they want?

The minimum wage is just that... a bare minimum beneath which hiring someone is dragging down society for the benefit of the owner or a few in that business. When someone is paid such a low wage that they cannot support themselves on that wage, then other people in society have to support them. They don't pay the taxes they could, don't buy as many products. Instead of contributing to society, they are a drain... to fill the pockets of a few greedy individuals at the top.


And when the employer can't afford to pay a cart pusher $20 an hour, they remove the position and everyone has to go get their own carts or other workers have to do it in addition to their roles. And this causes even fewer people to be employed. Employers aren't just made of money and can dole out whatever the government decides to dictate at that period of time.
Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.
Night Strike wrote:
Minimum wage jobs are for people, especially young people, to earn some spending cash and gain workforce experience for moving up to a career later in life. Continually raising the minimum wage simply provides fewer of those opportunities, which actually will keep prices down over an employee's working life as they weren't able to start out at the lowest of levels at a young enough time. If you want wages to go up, you allow employers to pay young people rock-bottom wages as those jobs aren't designed to be lived on anyway.

No, in most cases, young people, trainees can be paid less. Even professional in-home care workers don't have to be paid minimum wage.

Further more. the reason folks like you can trot out the idea that only a few people get minimum wage is because anyone making even a penny more is technically no longer making minimum wage. The number of people making under $8 or $9 an hour is close to a fourth of the population... and a LARGE percentage of them are women, not teenage kids.


... Where's my violin? :-({|=
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:17 am

Nobunaga wrote:... Where's my violin? :-({|=

Back in the 1950's where that meme was generated I think.


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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Symmetry on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:14 am

Ouch. Nobunaga owned by Player and Andy in turn.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:18 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.


Why not? If the minimum wage is designed to get hard working people more money, why isn't it raised to a much higher number? I thought there were no consequences to raising the minimum wage other than the evil rich bosses won't be able to be paid as much, so why are we stopping at some randomly low number? Why don't we pick an arbitrary higher number?
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby stahrgazer on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:14 pm

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.


Why not? If the minimum wage is designed to get hard working people more money, why isn't it raised to a much higher number? I thought there were no consequences to raising the minimum wage other than the evil rich bosses won't be able to be paid as much, so why are we stopping at some randomly low number? Why don't we pick an arbitrary higher number?


Actually, a higher number would be more helpful to those who are "barely above minimum" now.

What happens when minimum wage rises is that the cost of everyday items such as a loaf of bread also rises, while the salaries of those who just broke past the "minimum" bubble does NOT typically rise by a commensurate amount... so a new worker will now be paid as much as a worker who's been there a few years and the worker who's been employed at his place of work for a few years who finally thought he saw some relief, is now going to have to re-budget to buy food for the table, gas for the car, and will not be able to buy the extras he thought he'd be able to buy once he finally broke thru the OLD minimum wage bubble. The bubble just rose back up to snatch him back into barely-above-poverty once more.

But if the minimum wage were to rise sufficiently high, the there-for-a-few-years worker would likely ALSO get a raise (or maybe get a raise and no new hires.)

I've supported alot of Obama's ideas, but I don't support this one.
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Re: Rise of Minimum wage?

Postby Night Strike on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:20 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Since no one is proposing anything close to a $20 wage, your argument is idiotic... at best.


Why not? If the minimum wage is designed to get hard working people more money, why isn't it raised to a much higher number? I thought there were no consequences to raising the minimum wage other than the evil rich bosses won't be able to be paid as much, so why are we stopping at some randomly low number? Why don't we pick an arbitrary higher number?


Actually, a higher number would be more helpful to those who are "barely above minimum" now.

What happens when minimum wage rises is that the cost of everyday items such as a loaf of bread also rises, while the salaries of those who just broke past the "minimum" bubble does NOT typically rise by a commensurate amount... so a new worker will now be paid as much as a worker who's been there a few years and the worker who's been employed at his place of work for a few years who finally thought he saw some relief, is now going to have to re-budget to buy food for the table, gas for the car, and will not be able to buy the extras he thought he'd be able to buy once he finally broke thru the OLD minimum wage bubble. The bubble just rose back up to snatch him back into barely-above-poverty once more.

But if the minimum wage were to rise sufficiently high, the there-for-a-few-years worker would likely ALSO get a raise (or maybe get a raise and no new hires.)

I've supported alot of Obama's ideas, but I don't support this one.


Precisely the problem with constantly raising the minimum wage. Furthermore, if it's tied to inflation, forget ever getting a merit-based or annual raise from your company: the government will mandate your raise for you. That's why we must actually combat the cause of the wage problem of inflation rather than just throw out more money to people.
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