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Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

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Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

 
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:29 pm

Symmetry wrote:1) He never freed her.


He freed her as much as allowed in the State of Virginia if she wished to remain in the State of Virginia and the evidence indicates she DID wish to remain.

Symmetry wrote:2) That you consider the question of consent so irrelevant to sexual acts is telling.


What's telling is that you consider what I'd do as evidence of what the State of Virginia allowed Jefferson to do to free his black mistress and still allow her to be near him.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Night Strike on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:30 pm

Symmetry wrote:1) He never freed her.


Because the state of Virginia forbade black people from being free. She would have had to go to another state to be legally free.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:38 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:1) He never freed her.


Because the state of Virginia forbade black people from being free. She would have had to go to another state to be legally free.


...and evidence suggest she didn't WANT to leave because if she did, she had ample opportunity to do so in Europe or when she was given her "free time" which was the nearest thing Virginia did allow Jefferson to do to free her.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:43 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:1) He never freed her.


He freed her as much as allowed in the State of Virginia if she wished to remain in the State of Virginia and the evidence indicates she DID wish to remain.

Symmetry wrote:2) That you consider the question of consent so irrelevant to sexual acts is telling.


What's telling is that you consider what I'd do as evidence of what the State of Virginia allowed Jefferson to do to free his black mistress and still allow her to be near him.


They allowed her to be a slave. Answer the question,
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:50 pm

Symmetry wrote:They allowed her to be a slave.


The State of Virginia REQUIRED her to be slave since she wished to remain in Virginia.

Symmetry wrote:Answer the question,


I did.

Symmetry wrote:I have said that sex without freedom to consent is rape. So two questions.

1) Do you agree?


stahrgazer wrote:1) Yes, sex without freedom to consent is rape; however, "freedom to consent" differs from "legal right to consent." ... Evidence DOES suggest that Sally WAS given freedom to consent on things regarding her life. She she was GIVEN money, she was GIVEN an education, she was GIVEN clothing. She was GIVEN ample opportunity to flee if she wished; and she was GIVEN freedom of her own time, which was the closest thing to "full freedom" allowed in the state of Virginia at that time - since she apparently wished to remain in Virginia.


Symmetry wrote: 2) Would you have sex with someone who couldn't consent?


stahrgazer wrote:2) irrelevant
What's telling is that you consider what I'd do as evidence of what the State of Virginia allowed Jefferson to do to free his black mistress and still allow her to be near him.


In reverse, a child has "freedom to consent" but does not have "legal right to consent," under many situations. If sex is between minors of equal age, then depending on the state, the child has "legal right to consent" but again the ages depend on whether the act is hetero or homosexual and varies state to state.

If sex is between minors of a certain age and those of legal consent age within so many years of the minor's age, then the child has "legal right to consent" but if the ages vary more the child may not have "legal right to consent."

Yet, an 89 year old can diddle a 16 year old (an age discrepancy far wider than Jefferson/Sally) in most states and the 16 year old has not only the "freedom to consent" that anyone has, but ALSO the "legal right to consent."

So, again, freedom to consent differs from legal right to consent. A slave has no legal right to consent but may well have freedom to consent just as the black person had no legal right to freedom but could be granted freedom of her own personal time in the state of Virginia at that time.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:57 pm

You have not answered the question.

Would you have sex with someone who couldn't consent?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:01 pm

Symmetry wrote:You have not answered the question.

Would you have sex with someone who couldn't consent?


I have answered the question as far as it is relevant to this thread.

If you wish to troll about what people would or would not do, themselves, sexually, then take it to a new thread, thank you.

THIS thread is about whether Jefferson raped his black mistress. I say not, and gave ample evidence why not. You say yes, and seem to think that whether someone can or would do something today matters as to what Jefferson and Sally were allowed to enjoy back then.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:09 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:You have not answered the question.

Would you have sex with someone who couldn't consent?


I have answered the question as far as it is relevant to this thread. If you wish to troll about what people would or would not do, themselves, sexually, then take it to a new thread, thank you.


The question of consent is important, You're acting as if replying with a yes or no would destroy your arguments.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Night Strike on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:24 pm

Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:You have not answered the question.

Would you have sex with someone who couldn't consent?


I have answered the question as far as it is relevant to this thread. If you wish to troll about what people would or would not do, themselves, sexually, then take it to a new thread, thank you.


The question of consent is important, You're acting as if replying with a yes or no would destroy your arguments.


How is 2013 the same as 200+ years ago?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:32 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:You have not answered the question.

Would you have sex with someone who couldn't consent?


I have answered the question as far as it is relevant to this thread. If you wish to troll about what people would or would not do, themselves, sexually, then take it to a new thread, thank you.


The question of consent is important, You're acting as if replying with a yes or no would destroy your arguments.


How is 2013 the same as 200+ years ago?


It was not- rape was legal. If illegality is truly the only thing stopping you or Stahr from enslaving a kid and raping her, you should say so.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:27 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:They allowed her to be a slave.


The State of Virginia REQUIRED her to be slave since she wished to remain in Virginia.


Why does that matter?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:43 pm

Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:You have not answered the question.

Would you have sex with someone who couldn't consent?


I have answered the question as far as it is relevant to this thread. If you wish to troll about what people would or would not do, themselves, sexually, then take it to a new thread, thank you.


The question of consent is important, You're acting as if replying with a yes or no would destroy your arguments.


The question of "legal right to consent" versus "freedom to consent" has been answered.

You're trolling your thread with this continuance about what of today and what of me, and it's beyond assinine of you.

Today is not then. I am neither Jefferson, NOR his willing black mistress, Sally - who could've left the Jefferson household and the state if she'd wanted to, but she obviously didn't want to and likely had freedom to consent or deny any sexual activity with Jefferson even though she didn't have "legal right to consent."

You're the one acting as if just because it was legal (or illegal) means someone did it, so YOU are the one who's acting as though a person's character doesn't count "as long as it's legal."

As for Greek, "why does it matter?" you're usually not this obtuse, but I'll answer again.

IF Sally had wished to leave, she had ample opportunities through the years including the amount of freedom she was given, called "her time." State laws matter because, since Sally had all those opportunities to leave and did not take them, obviously she did not wish to leave.

Jefferson could have freed her fully, not just with the "her time" but if he had, she would have been re-enslaved by another person if she'd stayed in Virginia.

So, according to the laws of the state in which they resided, and which it's obvious she continued to wish to reside, Sally could NOT be fully free AND reside in the state she'd obviously chosen to stay in.

But, Jefferson did allow her the maximum freedom allowed by Virginia law, which was the "her time" referred to in the website.

It matters. it goes to character.

Jefferson's character is more important to a discussion of whether Jefferson was a rapist or merely had a willing black mistress at that time in Virginia.

How I would personally answer the question sym keeps trolling has absolutely NO bearing on it.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:49 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:You have not answered the question.

Would you have sex with someone who couldn't consent?


I have answered the question as far as it is relevant to this thread. If you wish to troll about what people would or would not do, themselves, sexually, then take it to a new thread, thank you.


The question of consent is important, You're acting as if replying with a yes or no would destroy your arguments.


The question of "legal right to consent" versus "freedom to consent" has been answered.

You're trolling your thread with this continuance about what of today and what of me, and it's beyond assinine of you.

Today is not then. I am neither Jefferson, NOR his willing black mistress, Sally - who could've left the Jefferson household and the state if she'd wanted to, but she obviously didn't want to and likely had freedom to consent or deny any sexual activity with Jefferson even though she didn't have "legal right to consent."

You're the one acting as if just because it was legal (or illegal) means someone did it, so YOU are the one who's acting as though a person's character doesn't count "as long as it's legal."

As for Greek, "why does it matter?" you're usually not this obtuse, but I'll answer again.

IF Sally had wished to leave, she had ample opportunities through the years including the amount of freedom she was given, called "her time." State laws matter because, since Sally had all those opportunities to leave and did not take them, obviously she did not wish to leave.

Jefferson could have freed her fully, not just with the "her time" but if he had, she would have been re-enslaved by another person if she'd stayed in Virginia.

So, according to the laws of the state in which they resided, and which it's obvious she continued to wish to reside, Sally could NOT be fully free AND reside in the state she'd obviously chosen to stay in.

But, Jefferson did allow her the maximum freedom allowed by Virginia law, which was the "her time" referred to in the website.

It matters. it goes to character.

Jefferson's character is more important to a discussion of whether Jefferson was a rapist or merely had a willing black mistress at that time in Virginia.

How I would personally answer the question sym keeps trolling has absolutely NO bearing on it.


You know that answering yes or no would hurt your argument.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:50 pm

I think you misunderstand my question and I'm sorry if you think I'm being obtuse.

I think what you're saying is that she freely subjected herself to being a slave because that was the law in Virginia.

My response is why does that make a difference? If she was free to leave the Commonwealth, why didn't she? Like Symmetry asked, would you stay in Virginia if you were a slave or would you leave and not be a slave?

In any event, I'm not being obtuse. She was in the position of slave, regardless of the laws of the state and her potential for freedom, and Jefferson was in the position of master. That dynamic is necessarily coercive.

To put it another way, every slave was "free to leave" if he or she could suffer the consequences of leaving. The woman was free to say no to sex if she would suffer the consequences. Just because Jefferson didn't violently rape her doesn't mean he didn't rape her. And just because Jefferson is Jefferson doesn't mean he didn't rape her.

If Symmetry had made this thread "Was Bob Smith a rapist?" and posted the same facts without disclosing that he was talking about Thomas Jefferson, you'd all be agreeing with him. Sadly, I also think that if Symmetry had noted some non-American instead of Jefferson, you'd all be agreeing with him.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:30 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I think you misunderstand my question and I'm sorry if you think I'm being obtuse.

I think what you're saying is that she freely subjected herself to being a slave because that was the law in Virginia.


No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that she was "Jefferson's slave" at the time he had sex with her because the only way to stay with him was to be his slave, but she had many options to leave.

Maybe she would have preferred to be fully free AND remain in Virginia, and from the way the entire family had always treated her, maybe they, too, including Jefferson, would have preferred that she be fully free AND remain in Virginia.

That wasn't the options they had.

The options were:

a) fully free her, letting her stay until such time as she's caught by some dickhead of a whiteboy who then has legal right to enslave and abuse her
b) fully free her, sending her north or to Europe to safety
c) Sally herself choose to flee north or to Europe to safety
d) Keep her the "slave who's paid sometimes and with time on her own and quality education to better her skills and with her loving family,"

I believe a was more detrimental and based on them treating her as part family, part maid, even paying her, it's obvious they weren't doing things for her detriment.
I believe b and c were something she did not choose.
That leaves d.

Option d alone doesn't imply sex, but it does imply she willingly chose to stay. If she feared "rape" d would not have been the option she chose.

thegreekdog wrote:My response is why does that make a difference? If she was free to leave the Commonwealth, why didn't she?


I believe evidence reflects she did not leave because she liked being with the Jeffersons. Further, I believe it's quite likely she and Thomas were "in love" - perhaps not recognized until his wife had passed, but presumably (based on when she bore children) not consummated until after his wife had passed.

thegreekdog wrote:Like Symmetry asked, would you stay in Virginia if you were a slave or would you leave and not be a slave?


That's not what he asked. THIS is what HE asked:
Symmetry wrote:Would you have sex with someone who couldn't consent?


His question is irrelevant.

Your question leads to female motivation, implying the freedom of choice I'm saying is indicated that Sally had. IF she were in love, happy, well treated, that she was "slave in name," wouldn't much matter to her. Ever read Alex Haley's Queenie? In part, it's a book about a black slave in love with her white owner.

thegreekdog wrote:In any event, I'm not being obtuse. She was in the position of slave, regardless of the laws of the state and her potential for freedom, and Jefferson was in the position of master. That dynamic is necessarily coercive.

To put it another way, every slave was "free to leave" if he or she could suffer the consequences of leaving. The woman was free to say no to sex if she would suffer the consequences. Just because Jefferson didn't violently rape her doesn't mean he didn't rape her. And just because Jefferson is Jefferson doesn't mean he didn't rape her.


Not all coercive relationships are rape. Money is a type of coercion; doesn't mean a woman who marries money is raped.

Rape has to do with the consequences of saying no specifically to the sexual acts. I'm saying, indications are, she may have preferred to be free and still say yes to Jefferson's sexual act, but given the choice, she was willing to be slave and say yes to Jefferson's sexual act rather than say no and thus, have to say no to his sexual act.


thegreekdog wrote:If Symmetry had made this thread "Was Bob Smith a rapist?" and posted the same facts without disclosing that he was talking about Thomas Jefferson, you'd all be agreeing with him. Sadly, I also think that if Symmetry had noted some non-American instead of Jefferson, you'd all be agreeing with him.


I would not.

Before I'd researched Sally's life as much as I could find, I said it was only rape if she was not allowed by Jefferson to say no.

I STILL maintain that it's only rape if she was not allowed by Jefferson to say no.

After reading what I could find of Sally Hinson I'm of the opinion she would have been allowed to say no, but deliberately said yes.

Her reason may have been love.
Her reason may have been security.

It just doesn't appear that her reason is "fear of what would happen if she said no."

If that wasn't her fear, then it wasn't "rape."

You might be trying to imply that she said yes because she feared she'd be kicked out if she said no. Evidence indicates she was given alot of freedom, educated handsomely as a ladies' maid, and sometimes was even paid for her maidservices.

That indicates you think her choice must be, "Accept rape or go live as some nicer lady's maid somewhere up north or in Europe where I'd be free."
If that were the option, I think she'd have chosen to go live as a nicer lady's maid somewhere. She was well-travelled, so wouldn't fear the unknown too much.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:38 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
After reading what I could find of Sally Hinson


Who?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:40 pm

Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
After reading what I could find of Sally Hinson


Who?


Sally. Excuse me, Hemmings.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:41 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
After reading what I could find of Sally Hinson


Who?


Sally. Excuse me, Hemmings.


Sally Hemings, no wonder your attempts to find evidence are so flawed.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:49 pm

Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:Sally. Excuse me, Hemmings.


Sally Hemings, no wonder your attempts to find evidence are so flawed.


Assinine.

The websites I found are of the correct Sally, but you don't wish to read them because they contain facts that oppose your emotionalisms.

You prefer to throw out nonsequitors and irrelevancies.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:52 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:Sally. Excuse me, Hemmings.


Sally Hemings, no wonder your attempts to find evidence are so flawed.


Assinine.

The websites I found are of the correct Sally, but you don't wish to read facts, just throw out nonsequitors and irrelevancies.


Get her name right first. It will help show that you have more than simple contempt for her.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:56 pm

Symmetry wrote:Get her name right first.


If it's that important to you, then first show me her birth certificate to prove her name wasn't misspelled over the decades.. because it's possible that my typo corrects far too many years of misspellings.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:57 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Get her name right first.


If it's that important to you, then first show me her birth certificate to prove her name wasn't misspelled over the decades.. because it's possible that my typo corrects far too many years of misspellings.


And once again, you apply nonsequitors and force emotionalist meaning on them.

I don't "get names right." You got a problem with my disability?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:00 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Get her name right first.


If it's that important to you, then first show me her birth certificate to prove her name wasn't misspelled over the decades.. because it's possible that my typo corrects far too many years of misspellings.


And once again, you apply nonsequitors and force emotionalist meaning on them.

I don't "get names right." You got a problem with my disability?


Are you now disagreeing with yourself?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:04 pm

Symmetry wrote:Are you now disagreeing with yourself?


Have to admit, tho, it's interesting that you used the word, "contempt."

I think you must find her willingness to lay with a white dude in Virginia very contemptible. If you didn't find it that contemptible, you'd probably look at the evidence of how she was treated and stop with your emotionalist line all about how she could not have actually liked him and wanted sex with him.

Yup. If you didn't have such contempt for a female slave, you'd probably be willing to admit that just because she was slave didn't mean her emotions had been lobotomized.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:14 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Are you now disagreeing with yourself?


Have to admit, tho, it's interesting that you used the word, "contempt."

I think you must find her willingness to lay with a white dude in Virginia very contemptible. If you didn't find it that contemptible, you'd probably look at the evidence of how she was treated and stop with your emotionalist line all about how she could not have actually liked him and wanted sex with him.

Yup. If you didn't have such contempt for a female slave, you'd probably be willing to admit that just because she was slave didn't mean her emotions had been lobotomized.


You're just being silly now stahr.
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