Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

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Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Yes- Sally Hemings wasn't free to consent
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25%
No- I'm ok with sexual slavery
20
45%
Kittens
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30%
 
Total votes : 44

Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby / on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:22 am

Symmetry wrote:He didn't free her though.

Oh sorry, I'm a bit loopy from lack of sleep.
Reread.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:27 am

/ wrote:
Symmetry wrote:He didn't free her though.

Oh sorry, I'm a bit loopy from lack of sleep.
Reread.


No problem, my question stands.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby swimmerdude99 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:31 am

I love how one-sided your poll is lol
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:35 am

His point is exactly that.
You can vote, she couldn't.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:36 am

swimmerdude99 wrote:I love how one-sided your poll is lol


What option would you like to see? It's tough to justify enslaving and raping a 14 year old girl.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:42 am

jonesthecurl wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:Well, I think that then we have to cnsider his whole attitude towards slavery.
I do have some interesting references - I'll get back when I dig em up.


Although opposed to the international slave trade, Jefferson sometimes bought slaves and often sold them.[179][180] After returning from France, he sold fifty slaves to pay the debts he had incurred there.[179][181] Ten years after the abolition of the American slave trade, Jefferson, again to pay his debts, sold slaves to his grandson.[182]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson#Slaves_and_slavery

Let's not be coy. The man was a slave trader,


yes he was. He recommended it as a way of making money. I just don't have that reference to hand as I sit here watching Gordon Ramsay on Tv, writing lines to try to shoehorn more stage time for my character in someone else's play, and drinking a beer.
Nevertheless, he wasn't JUST a slave-owning git.


Never said he was only that. I also said he was a rapist.
Last edited by Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby chang50 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:45 am

swimmerdude99 wrote:I love how one-sided your poll is lol


Surely the option to answer 'no' is allowed,even if it is impossible to justify..
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby / on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:47 am

Symmetry wrote:
/ wrote:
Symmetry wrote:He didn't free her though.

Oh sorry, I'm a bit loopy from lack of sleep.
Reread.


No problem, my question stands.

As I said before, yes; some of his acts in this case should be considered evil.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:48 am

I honestly suspect that there was love and respect mutually involved here.
Not gonna do massive research on this at this time of night. this is usually when I do my writing, which is currently how I earn my living.
But you caught my attention with a question that I'm currently interested in.
Unfortunately, unlike the creationist threads that I often post in late at night, I'm not expecting anything to leak over into my standup routine from this thread.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:48 am

chang50 wrote:
swimmerdude99 wrote:I love how one-sided your poll is lol


Surely the option to answer 'no' is allowed,even if it is impossible to justify..


there's the kitten option for people who object to the poll in general.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby chang50 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:52 am

jonesthecurl wrote:I honestly suspect that there was love and respect mutually involved here.
Not gonna do massive research on this at this time of night. this is usually when I do my writing, which is currently how I earn my living.
But you caught my attention with a question that I'm currently interested in.
Unfortunately, unlike the creationist threads that I often post in late at night, I'm not expecting anything to leak over into my standup routine from this thread.


I am sure there was mutual love and respect from my own reading,however this is irrelevant to the OP.Children are judged incapable of giving informed consent..
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:53 am

Sym makes a good point, but context still matters. Today, we have millions who support theft if the government does it in order to 'help' others. They even go to the extent of supporting the state--knowing that it murders people.

Or, consider how almost everyone today uses fiat currency, which enables governments to incur significant debt so that they can spend irresponsibly, while dumping the negative consequences on future generations. The acceptance of fiat currency also promotes government-induced inflation through increasing the money supply--which undermines the value of that currency, thus robbing those people of that value.

Perhaps in 200 years, those supporters and users of fiat currency will all be viewed as evil--from a non-contextual perspective, of course.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:53 am

jonesthecurl wrote:I honestly suspect that there was love and respect mutually involved here.
Not gonna do massive research on this at this time of night. this is usually when I do my writing, which is currently how I earn my living.
But you caught my attention with a question that I'm currently interested in.
Unfortunately, unlike the creationist threads that I often post in late at night, I'm not expecting anything to leak over into my standup routine from this thread.


Then why didn't he free her? Even in his will? I don't see much respect in slavery.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:55 am

chang50 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:I honestly suspect that there was love and respect mutually involved here.
Not gonna do massive research on this at this time of night. this is usually when I do my writing, which is currently how I earn my living.
But you caught my attention with a question that I'm currently interested in.
Unfortunately, unlike the creationist threads that I often post in late at night, I'm not expecting anything to leak over into my standup routine from this thread.


I am sure there was mutual love and respect from my own reading,however this is irrelevant to the OP.Children are judged incapable of giving informed consent..


Grrr, let me get on with what I'm supposed to be doing...
OK one last comment: "child" is culturally defined.
And remember what the poet said – “in booty there is loot, and in loot booty.” Or sump’n like that.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby xeno on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:00 am

I think at 14 you are able to give sexual consent especially in the 19th century
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby john9blue on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:01 am

how do you know that this was "rape"?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:02 am

jonesthecurl wrote:
chang50 wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:I honestly suspect that there was love and respect mutually involved here.
Not gonna do massive research on this at this time of night. this is usually when I do my writing, which is currently how I earn my living.
But you caught my attention with a question that I'm currently interested in.
Unfortunately, unlike the creationist threads that I often post in late at night, I'm not expecting anything to leak over into my standup routine from this thread.


I am sure there was mutual love and respect from my own reading,however this is irrelevant to the OP.Children are judged incapable of giving informed consent..


Grrr, let me get on with what I'm supposed to be doing...
OK one last comment: "child" is culturally defined.


Sure, to an extent, although the question really is, "Where do you set your boundaries?"
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby xeno on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:03 am

john9blue wrote:how do you know that this was "rape"?

This is the point I was getting at essentially
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:04 am

john9blue wrote:how do you know that this was "rape"?


she was not able to freely consent.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:07 am

john9blue wrote:how do you know that this was "rape"?


By applying 21st century understanding of that word,
then eliminate the context of the past,
substitute it with a 21st century context
and make a conclusion.


Centuries ago, a tyrant killing his people was justified--in that those people deserve it since they must've sinned at some time (either Aquinas or St. Aug was making that argument).

Centuries ago, monarchy by divine right was legit and morally good. Opinions to the contrary be damned--couldn't have a tyranny of the majority! And how could those silly peasants be able to govern themselves??

The concept of universal rights changes over time. It's not as universal as we sometimes think it to be--or wish it to be.


This thread reminds me of what Bastiat once said,
“The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended.”
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby john9blue on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:08 am

Symmetry wrote:
john9blue wrote:how do you know that this was "rape"?


she was not able to freely consent.


interesting. does free will develop during late puberty?
natty_dread wrote:Do ponies have sex?
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:09 am

john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
john9blue wrote:how do you know that this was "rape"?


she was not able to freely consent.


interesting. does free will develop during late puberty?


She was a slave.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby john9blue on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:14 am

Symmetry wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
john9blue wrote:how do you know that this was "rape"?


she was not able to freely consent.


interesting. does free will develop during late puberty?


She was a slave.


what did jefferson (or other slave owners of that time period) do to slaves that did not consent to sex? how much coercion occurred?

you can't just assume it was rape (which is already a vaguely defined word due to the lack of a clear-cut distinction between voluntary and involuntary, which i discussed in another thread), more context is required. he may have been a rapist, but again, that hardly speaks to the morality of his actions, especially considering (as bbs said) the time period.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Symmetry on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:22 am

john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
john9blue wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
john9blue wrote:how do you know that this was "rape"?


she was not able to freely consent.


interesting. does free will develop during late puberty?


She was a slave.


what did jefferson (or other slave owners of that time period) do to slaves that did not consent to sex? how much coercion occurred?

you can't just assume it was rape (which is already a vaguely defined word due to the lack of a clear-cut distinction between voluntary and involuntary, which i discussed in another thread), more context is required. he may have been a rapist, but again, that hardly speaks to the morality of his actions, especially considering (as bbs said) the time period.


If she could not freely consent, then it was rape.
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Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a rapist?

Postby Night Strike on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:24 am

To claim that he was a rapist because she was 14 years old is pretty dubious considering adulthood was much earlier than it is today.

You have a marginally more convincing case with the fact she was a slave, but considering that Jefferson is known to have been a genial slave owner (versus an abusive/violent) one, the implication that this was a forcible relationship would probably be unfounded.
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